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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Registered: 10/14/19
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: GenericHero]
    #28135064 - 01/11/23 09:25 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

GenericHero said:
People change their minds. Circumstances change. People are bad at planning and implementing. What sounds good on theory, is often hard to implement in real life.

Just because something is theoretically viable outside the womb... It is still dependant on the mother's body to survive. How would one get it out? Surgery or induced labor? Could nothing go wrong between the point it becomes viable and the actual date of delivery? It doesn't seem that cut and dry to me.

As far as your statement:

"The point of viability continues to grow closer to the point of conception, eventually they will be one in the same. At that point it stops being fundamentally irrational as you say and life begins at conception."

Conception is when the egg is fertilized. Your first sentence makes me think you think it happens at the end of pregnancy.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/11585-conception

No one is arguing that the fertilized egg is alive. I think the question is more when is it a person.




Exactly. When does a fertilized egg become a person and therefore not okay to terminate. My response to jlp was just to show it is rational to conceive of a future world where viability of a fertilized egg outside the womb is at the point of fertilization. We already conceive in the test tube and then implant, at some point we'll just skip the implant step and now when does life begin? :shrug:

Now something that was irrational before becomes rational to discuss.


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Invisibletrees
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Posts: 9,194
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28135070 - 01/11/23 09:28 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Who da fuk carez when life beginz


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: trees] * 1
    #28135074 - 01/11/23 09:30 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Your emotional responses don't bring anything of value to the discussion and make you look insecure.


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Invisibletrees
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28135075 - 01/11/23 09:31 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

:rofl2:


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InvisibleGenericHero
one howdy stranger


Registered: 07/07/20
Posts: 1,487
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28135098 - 01/11/23 09:54 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Smellyhobbit said:
Unpopular Opinion: the AK-47 should be peopleโ€™s first rifle. Nothing Iโ€™ve ever handled is as reliable or easy to shoot.




Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

GenericHero said:
People change their minds. Circumstances change. People are bad at planning and implementing. What sounds good on theory, is often hard to implement in real life.

Just because something is theoretically viable outside the womb... It is still dependant on the mother's body to survive. How would one get it out? Surgery or induced labor? Could nothing go wrong between the point it becomes viable and the actual date of delivery? It doesn't seem that cut and dry to me.

As far as your statement:

"The point of viability continues to grow closer to the point of conception, eventually they will be one in the same. At that point it stops being fundamentally irrational as you say and life begins at conception."

Conception is when the egg is fertilized. Your first sentence makes me think you think it happens at the end of pregnancy.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/11585-conception

No one is arguing that the fertilized egg is alive. I think the question is more when is it a person.




Exactly. When does a fertilized egg become a person and therefore not okay to terminate. My response to jlp was just to show it is rational to conceive of a future world where viability of a fertilized egg outside the womb is at the point of fertilization. We already conceive in the test tube and then implant, at some point we'll just skip the implant step and now when does life begin? :shrug:

Now something that was irrational before becomes rational to discuss.




In the future it may be the case that such processes are cheap and available to all. As of now, that isn't the case.
And yes, you can grow a human outside of a person but it couldn't survive without support from the medical equipment and personnel required for such a thing. The same standards would seem to apply up until the point it could sustain its life on its own.

By the way, have you looked at a fertilized egg? I doubt you would find that thing relatable. It literally is just a bunch of cells. It doesn't start growing organs until the third week. A potential person? Sure, but that is philosophical territory.


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halfass mycology


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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,177
Loc: New Mexico, USA Flag
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Sugabearcrisp] * 2
    #28135103 - 01/11/23 09:58 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Jean-Luc Picard said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
If you strongly believe life begins at conception or maybe viability outside the womb then abortion after that point is clearly murder and society as a whole has an interest in preventing the murder of its members. You do not have to be a religous zealot to come to this conclusion.




This assertion may be valid for viability outside the womb (and thus argue for term limits on unrestricted abortion access), but as I've already covered earlier, it is fundamentally irrational (and therefore cannot be argued as a viable concept for codifying into a law for every citizen) for anyone to believe that life begins at conception and categorize all abortion at any stage as baby murder, without having to completely change the way society works, in a way that no society has ever worked before.

Unless someone here can address all of the philosophical inconsistencies brought up in my previous post, and prove that life at conception is actually a global moral argument that should shape societal laws, and not a philosophically incompatible, belief-based set of opinions that should only be allowed to govern an individual's choices on that subject, then we should really stop justifying anybody who holds those beliefs and actively tries to impose them on everyone. :shrug:




The point of viability continues to grow closer to the point of conception, eventually they will be one in the same. At that point it stops being fundamentally irrational as you say and life begins at conception.



I guess I should have been more clear, I was willing to concede "viability outside the womb" as a term limit simply because it is generally agreed to coincide with the end of the 2nd trimester. If you go back and read my post on relative personhood, this is also the time when we know the uniquely human portions of the brain develop and start becoming active.

But your current argument seems to be implying that, with technological advancement, we'll be able to keep a fetus alive outside of the womb earlier and earlier, eventually legitimizing the life at conception argument. You're arbitrarily picking how far you extend your argument in order to attain the desired outcome.

If we assume your argument is true, and that we can eventually prove life at conception via artificially sustaining a fetus outside of the womb with medical technology, then why not extend that argument further? We can sustain human eggs and sperm in nutrient solution, we can artificially combine these in test tubes, we can sustain and cultivate the human cells that act as the precursors to the human egg and sperm, they all technically have the potential to create a new human life...so why not consider masturbation or menstruation murder? Why not consider the act of using contraception an act to prevent the potential baby's life from happening, and consider that some form of murder, since the cellular components of conception ultimately die during that act? Why not argue for the removal of choice of the parents to conceive, and force them to create a life under penalty of law every time they ovulate/ejaculate? Where do we logically draw the line for the potential for human life and the medical ability to sustain that potential outside of the parent's bodies? Do you see the fallacy of the argument now?

Another extension of this argument is on the opposite end of life. When a human body has no detectable brain activity, that body is considered "brain dead" and is treated as though it is dead. The brain is still there, the brain cells are still alive, and we currently have the medical technology to keep the physical cells of that body alive for years. There is also documented evidence of brain dead individuals regaining brain activity after a span of time, demonstrating the non-zero potential for them to continue to be alive in the eyes of the law and of society. The next of kin or power of attorney is generally given the power to decide whether to let the physical body die by taking it off of life support.

A human fetus does not have a brain for weeks after conception, and no detectable brain activity for several weeks more. If we extend your argument of viability outside of the womb to this situation, then in order to be philosophically consistent, we need to keep every brain-dead person hooked up to life support indefinitely, and force the next of kin to bear the emotional and financial burden of keeping this person alive, because to do anything else would be considered murder.

And for the 2nd time, I've already covered this in a previous post. Please, for the sake of not having to re-type all of this several times, go back and read my post on relative personhood. I'd be more than happy to discuss any additional arguments that haven't already been covered there.

Finally, to be clear, I don't care what you personally think about abortion. As I told Enkidu, all of my arguments are framed within the context of why pro-lifers who advocate for legal bans on abortions cannot do so without admitting that they seek to infringe on the rights of others based on assumptions of truth (usually religious assumptions, but not necessarily) that cannot be proven to be objective truth to all citizens of that society.


--------------------
The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT


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Offlineoursoulsinmotion
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #28135105 - 01/11/23 09:59 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Unpopular opinion: China will take over the world via Constant covid variant "leaks" long before tiktok was mapping out all our physical shit they had spies @ resturants


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โ˜†


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: trees] * 2
    #28135117 - 01/11/23 10:07 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

To think the rights of the unborn should take precedence over the desires of the living is about as absurd as one can get. 

Nobody has a responsibility to live "Responsibly", according to your interpretation of what that means.  Your shitty opinion is irrelevant to an individual's decision.  Given that you won't have to raise their kid, provide for the kid, and know nothing about their individual circumstances besides they had sex, you should keep your opinions to yourselves and not try to impose your bullshit on other people who actually have to live with the results of that decision.

Being pregnant does not equal having a child, it's just a step in the path.  Technology is already at a point where you can detect some developmental problems, so does having a child that will be born with some rare disease, is that also something that should be forced on people. 

If you screen the fetus to make sure your baby is going to be born without developmental difficulties, then it seems abortion until you get a qualified embryo is reasonable, prudent, and will result in a healthier, happier child.

Would you want to be born knowing you'd live your life in a wheel chair and have half the life expectancy of others?  Would you desire to burden yourself with a child that will be forced to live that life, when the option to try again and generally have a more viable child who will have a much easier life exists.  Life isn't easy, life isn't just fun, it's a struggle, not a "blessing", and burdening a child with unnecessary hardship is some cruel, fucked up shit.  Forcing a mother to raise a child that will have a very short life expectancy, and it will likely be a life spent in hospitals until their inevitable death, that's fucked up.

Those edge cases don't really matter to me, I think abortion is responsible, proper, and optimal in most cases.  I fully support it.  I am entirely against assholes who want to inject themselves into a private healthcare decision and pretend they know what's best.  Consent to sex is not consent to a child. 

It's like nobody who is anti abortion ever had a daughter who dated an abusive piece of shit.  Some people are fucking terrible, and many young girls are easily tricked by complete assholes.  So if I'm 40, bang me a dumb 18-21 year old and she gets pregnant, should she be forced to carry my child just because I decided to fuck her?  What if I'm also mentally and emotionally damaging and constantly manipulate her, taking advantage of her niavety? 

Is it survival of the fittest for an old man to trick a young girl into sex, then force her to carry his child because abortion is illegal?  If you think your daughter shouldn't have a choice in the matter, you're absurd.  If you think one mistake should ruin this young girls life, you hold one hell of a terrible belief.  It's not hard to get a young woman to consent to sex, it's not hard to get a girl pregnant, and just because you can do that doesn't mean any girl who chooses to fuck you must bear your child.

Let's flip it, say a man fucks a wild girl who isn't going to quit drinking, smoking, etc and wants to go through with her pregnancy because she believes the same dumb shit anti-choice people do.  She doesn't believe it's bad for the baby because she doesn't trust scientists.  She's very dumb, obviously.  Assuming the man has no idea she would be so insane and just made a mistake in the heat of the moment, wouldn't it be right for him to push her towards an abortion rather than doing everything wrong and ensuring her child will have an incredibly terrible life because she's a horrendous and monstrous idiot?  The amount of hypothetical situations that literally happen everyday, and would make abortion a proper, and by far the most responsible choice, are huge.

The real reason people are anti abortion is because they're closed off from the real world and the actual realities of people who are not themselves.  They reflect on their own life and go "I didn't need an abortion, I'd never need one, so nobody else have the choice".  It's a closed off view based on two things, usually in conjunction. 

1) A belief in a soul.
2) A belief that God has some plan for everything that happens.

When we get into the unreligious, abortion is favored by 80% of people.  It's only the poison that is religion which makes abortion at all a contentious proposition.  If you don't believe in bullshit though, it's pretty easy to the point that only 20% of the dumbest atheists somehow hold onto anti abortion beliefs.  Without bullshit beliefs, a living woman's life and decision matters more than the fact that she had sex and now is "responsible" in your barbaric and archaic view.  In my view abortion is generally a more responsible choice, because it understands that all lives aren't gifts, some are curses, not only upon the one unborn, but also and most importantly on those who already live.

Is it more responsible for a woman with a heroin addiction to have a child while addicted, knowing she won't stop, having already been doing it for the first few months of her pregnancy?  Is it responsible for a girl with a physically abusive piece of shit, who beats her and will almost certainly beat their child, to have his child and be forever tethered to that evil cunt?  What if he has better lawyers and you know you'll never be able to cut him out from your life, because you were dumb before the age of thirty like everyone else who exists.

The edge cases go on and on and on.  For many people abortion is the only responsible option, for idiots who don't recognize that, and desire to impose their will on others, I say fuck off.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


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InvisibleGenericHero
one howdy stranger


Registered: 07/07/20
Posts: 1,487
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: GenericHero] * 1
    #28135121 - 01/11/23 10:12 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

A question to those concerned over the potential for life:
Say you came in a woman. Would you make her stay on her back with her legs in the air after you were done? You know, to keep any of the semen from falling out.

In other news...
@smellyhobbit, what should the last gun you own be?
I shot a yugo SKS once. I was interested in all the features. A bayonet, grenade sights, a hollow container in the butt for storing things. Pretty neat.
The old Lee-Enfield's had secondary sights on the side of the rifle that went to something like 3200m. Apparently a rifle squad would use them as light artillery. Nuts.


--------------------
halfass mycology


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: GenericHero]
    #28135124 - 01/11/23 10:14 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

I don't see much of a discussion here. It's all circular argument. People say don't kill babies, then instead of addressing it they present little exceptions which essentially changes the conversation when they know what it's about, because they want to avoid the idea that you know, an adult should be able to control themselves and that people do have some responsibility to the human race when idiots are breeding like rabbits. It's all the same shit, over and over. It's not much of a discussion. Lots of poorly demonstrated philosophy and simping, mostly from singles and people who have no interest in raising children because they are a little emo crybaby inside who thinks life is about being happy. Generally immature people white knighting for people that don't exist. Like you can make hypothetical situations and people that don't exist but the actual individual in question that isn't allowed to exist doesn't matter? Poorly applied philosophy, kids.


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OnlineSmellyhobbit
Actual Retard
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Registered: 04/01/22
Posts: 11,156
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Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #28135126 - 01/11/23 10:16 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

The LAST rifle? Thatโ€™s an interesting question. If I had a homestead and needed some functional guns Iโ€™d probably get a nice .22, a 12 gauge, 410, and maybe a 308? I could take an AR15 over the 308.

Id trust the 308 to drop a hog before the AR.

Idk. Last rifle youโ€™d need is probably something like a 308. You can do a lot with a .22, a 12 gauge, and then any sort of standard rifle.


--------------------
A Love Letter to New Growers
A Guide for New Growers
Growth 2023 - A Year In Review

Grow more shrooms. Eat more ass. :mushroom:



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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,177
Loc: New Mexico, USA Flag
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28135127 - 01/11/23 10:17 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Hey Excess Taters,

I like your posts, but I think you're responding to the wrong person (trees) who generally seems to share the same opinions as you on the matter.

It looks like your account is pretty new, so you may not know that you can change who you're post is marked as replying to, which generally helps reduce confusion when there are multiple discussions flying around in the same thread.

You can do this either by going to the post you want to reply to, and at the top-right of the post clicking the "Reply" link, or by changing the "Reply to:" drop-down menu above the text box where you normally enter the text of your post.

If you already know all of this, please disregard. :thumbup:


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The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT


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OfflineExcess Taters
Highentist
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Registered: 08/29/22
Posts: 874
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #28135129 - 01/11/23 10:18 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Almost nobody pro abortion thinks a baby is being killed.  A fetus is being denied the chance at life because the host organism rejected the parasite that recently attached to it.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28135130 - 01/11/23 10:19 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

inappropriate post.  Do better



Edited by mndfreeze (01/11/23 10:55 AM)


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Registered: 08/29/22
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Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #28135132 - 01/11/23 10:19 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Jean-Luc Picard said:
Hey Excess Taters,

I like your posts, but I think you're responding to the wrong person (trees) who generally seems to share the same opinions as you on the matter.

It looks like your account is pretty new, so you may not know that you can change who you're post is marked as replying to, which generally helps reduce confusion when there are multiple discussions flying around in the same thread.

You can do this either by going to the post you want to reply to, and at the top-right of the post clicking the "Reply" link, or by changing the "Reply to:" drop-down menu above the text box where you normally enter the text of your post.

If you already know all of this, please disregard. :thumbup:




I do, I was moreso taking on the collective by not quoting any individual.  It's an overall argument not a specific one.

Edit - I don't see a way to reply without directing it at someone.  If that does exist then I have been fucking up though. 


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


Edited by Excess Taters (01/11/23 10:29 AM)


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
shoulda died already
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28135134 - 01/11/23 10:20 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Yeah but it's not a good argument, it's just you complaining about really specific circumstances that almost no one is arguing, so you may as well be jerking yourself off.


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Registered: 08/29/22
Posts: 874
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #28135137 - 01/11/23 10:23 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Kill yourself then, parasite. You're not contributing to your race.




Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Yeah but it's not a good argument, it's just you complaining about really specific circumstances that almost no one is arguing, so you may as well be jerking yourself off.




Said by the arbiter of reason who suggested I kill myself because I don't think the same stupid shit he thinks.  I really care a lot about your interpretation of my opinion, it's something I'll likely lose sleep over, I'm sure!


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


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Onlinespirit_shadow
Feature not a bug
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 3 minutes, 44 seconds
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: Excess Taters] * 1
    #28135140 - 01/11/23 10:24 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Nobody should kill themselves.....because you can't learn a lesson if you are dead :house:


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ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011
Ban lotto


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InvisibleGenericHero
one howdy stranger


Registered: 07/07/20
Posts: 1,487
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #28135144 - 01/11/23 10:25 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
I don't see much of a discussion here. It's all circular argument. People say don't kill babies, then instead of addressing it they present little exceptions which essentially changes the conversation when they know what it's about, because they want to avoid the idea that you know, an adult should be able to control themselves and that people do have some responsibility to the human race when idiots are breeding like rabbits. It's all the same shit, over and over. It's not much of a discussion. Lots of poorly demonstrated philosophy and simping, mostly from singles and people who have no interest in raising children because they are a little emo crybaby inside who thinks life is about being happy. Generally immature people white knighting for people that don't exist. Like you can make hypothetical situations and people that don't exist but the actual individual in question that isn't allowed to exist doesn't matter? Poorly applied philosophy, kids.




Who are you replying to?

"because they are a little emo crybaby inside who thinks life is about being happy."

I'm sorry you're so miserable.


--------------------
halfass mycology


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InvisibleGenericHero
one howdy stranger


Registered: 07/07/20
Posts: 1,487
Re: The official unpopular opinion thread [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #28135147 - 01/11/23 10:28 AM (1 year, 17 days ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
Kill yourself then, parasite. You're not contributing to your race.




Don't tell people to kill themselves. Shame on you.


--------------------
halfass mycology


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