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Invisiblebob5

Registered: 03/01/09
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Why graft? (regarding propagation)
    #27121812 - 01/02/21 10:36 AM (3 years, 26 days ago)

Hey,
I read that grafting speeds up propagation.
However, I can't figure out how to utilize this benefit.

Here's where I'm getting confused;
So you chop down the root stock laterally, leaving a stump.
Why not just let the root stock grow back and callous the cutting/{'scion'} and plant it in the earth.
That way you now have two cacti, a big cutting and a stump.

What benefits would introducing grafting here offer?
Or is the real benefit of grafting - grafting seedlings onto other seedlings?
(but then again, unless that turbo charged the growth of both cacti, I can't see the advantage of a 'double-cacti' over just having two separate cacti seedlings.)
And seeing as they need a similar diameter, you couldn't graft a seedling onto a mature several inch diameter cacti.

I gather there are other uses for grafting, the two valid uses I've seen so far is grafting a slower growing cacti or one with poor photosynthesis onto a stronger/faster cacti. Apparently you can also get rid of rot on a stem and keep the cacti alive by grafting the healthy top to a healthy root stock.
Cheers, B5


Edited by bob5 (01/02/21 10:50 AM)


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OfflineRaRaRasputin
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: bob5]
    #27122216 - 01/02/21 02:43 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

As far as root rot,  you just cut back  and let calace over then replant, don't need to graft.

You actually can graft a small cactus to a big one as long as the rings of "veines" cross in some form. You can even graft to areolas not having to chop the whole top off.

And lastly main reason to graft beside ornamental is it's speeds growth by 2-3xs


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Invisiblebob5

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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: RaRaRasputin]
    #27122311 - 01/02/21 03:37 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

ok, I see. Thanks.

So you could graft some young seedlings onto a root stock / mother.
In order to speed their growth.

Can you graft San Pedro onto San Pedro aereolas - Or would they be likely to fall off when they grow due to gravity?
Unless they grow up towards the light I suppose


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OfflineRaRaRasputin
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: bob5]
    #27122432 - 01/02/21 04:40 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

Yes you can, in all grafting you keep the graft under light pressure for two weeks to allows the two cactus to grow together and gravity won't really matter by then. You can even graft to other cactus perskopsis is a great one due to its fast growing features. I've recently grafted my San Pedros to a $15 dinky cereus cactus I found at home depot and a cactus my dad gave to me before he died, a Opuntia var brazzilianas on its main stock. Over not done paddle grafting Becuase it's a bit difficult but one day.  Here's the pics in listed order.


Grafting is actually really easy and not as complicated as it seams.
I grafted the first one about a month and a half ago and it was not even 1/3 it's current size which is crazy considered it's wintering right now.


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Invisiblebob5

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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: RaRaRasputin]
    #27122463 - 01/02/21 04:57 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

Looking forward to giving this a go in Spring. Plants are looking good : )
Don't grafted cacti start to share genetics and alkaloids? I think I read that it's a form of hybridization somewhere
Cacti are amazing,


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OfflineRaRaRasputin
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: bob5]
    #27122485 - 01/02/21 05:22 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

Honestly I don't know, that would be pretty dope though if they do.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: RaRaRasputin]
    #27122592 - 01/02/21 06:19 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

No, they don't share alkaloids in any meaningful degree TMK and grafted scions contain everything they would have growing on their own roots. Grafting can take a seed and turn it into a 10" plant in under a year when conditions are right, otherwise you will usually get a 4" - 6" scion. Some plants are extremely difficult to grow and grafting them takes almost all of the hardship out of it.

You can graft to a strong pereskiopsis mother, then clip it when the graft has taken and plant that grafted cutting in the ground, nothing wrong with doing do.
Do not be surprised if a rabbit decides to eat your Pereskiopsis / graft. I often cut grafts from taller plants and re-root them with 4-6" of stem to make them easier to transport.

+++

Will also add that grafted cactus are novelty plants and aside from the usual Euphorbias and Mooncactus, simply aren't very common. I grafted a piece of dog tail to a Pereskiopsis just to see if it could be done. I grafted another and now I have a pereskiopsis with a long tail coming out of the top of it but it is otherwise too fragile to sell or move.


Edited by DancingWolf (01/02/21 06:45 PM)


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: bob5] * 1
    #27122639 - 01/02/21 06:42 PM (3 years, 26 days ago)

Some people also graft to speed up the time it takes for plants to reach sexual maturity so they can produce their own seeds. 4 years of growth can occur in 12 months.

Lots of reasons for grafting. Some people do it because they can. Some people do it to save plants that succumb to disease or rot, ie: Emergency grafts.

Some people do it to propagate a lot of material in a small amount of time. You can turn one plant into multiple plants via areole and slab grafting.

Grafted cacti do not share alkaloids or genetics. The only thing that is passed on is the increased speed of growth via the rootstock. It just speeds things along, that's it.


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Invisibleninja cat 09
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: karode13]
    #27123886 - 01/03/21 12:59 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

A type of grafting that's interesting to me is hypocotyl grafting, which is grafting a seedling to a rootstock which is also a seedling, because it grants a mostly natural look to a plant while changing a possibly sensitive root system for a stronger one.  It's not really worth it for other use cases, since they tend to grow at the same speed as natural plants and are a PITA to do.


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Invisiblebob5

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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: ninja cat 09]
    #27123946 - 01/03/21 01:23 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

One thing I'm confused about..
Would grafting a San Pedro to a San Pedro increase the Scions growth speed? Or would you need to choose a rootstock that is a faster growing species than the Scion/Graftee?

Yeah that hypocotyl grafting sounds good to look into


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Invisibleninja cat 09
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: bob5]
    #27124152 - 01/03/21 03:02 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

It depends on the size/speed of the rootstock and the size/speed of the scion. A big, fast growing type of san pedro will help a smaller and/or slower growing scion a lot, but if the case is turned around you'll have worse than usual growth.

I've seen people use san pedro stock for san pedro variegated, crested or monstrose scions with success.


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: ninja cat 09]
    #27125606 - 01/04/21 08:57 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah, the only advantage of a graft is the big rootstock of the stump it's grafted to. A fast growing and hardy plant is best to graft onto.
Seedlings and small tipcuttings take months or even years to form a big rootstock, ergo the plant won't grow fast during this time.
When grafted onto a healthy fat rootstock, the growing goes on (almost) uninterupted.
A fast growing and hardy cactus is a good choice for a rootstock. A potent plant is a good choice to graft onto a fast growing cactus, to speed growth up.

Bridgesii is prone to rot from overwatering. When grafted onto a hardy peruvianus or cuzsoensis that can withstand a lot of water, the bridgesii scion is less vulnerable.

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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: Pandemoon]
    #27125698 - 01/04/21 09:50 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

This is one of the reasons why I love the Blue Candle as a grafting stock. A well developed pup is much thicker than most of the common Trichocereus and it puts on such mass that grafting a 2-3" scion will put on 10-12" and gain some real thickness too it before it ever gets de-grafted.

It can essentially grow the equivalent of a Trichocereus cutting from a mature plant in under a year. Absolute beast, I need to propagate more of that stock. Start a seedling on Pereskiopsis, then transfer it to Myrtilliocactus Geometrizans, watch it explode with growth.

Grafting a small San Pedro scion to any established San Pedro stock, big or small, will increase the growth speed significantly. PC Pedro shouldn't be discarded lightly when it can be converted into any other variety of Trichocereus just by grafting a scion.


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OfflineRaRaRasputin
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: DancingWolf]
    #27125799 - 01/04/21 10:37 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

Wait what? You can cover PC into having alkaloids just by grafting a non PC to it?


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: RaRaRasputin]
    #27125807 - 01/04/21 10:40 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

PC has it's own alkaloid profile and that won't change. My point being you can use the root stock and let the scion keep growing and growing, effectively turning it into a non-PC. It's till going to be a common Pedro at the root. I have some smaller plants that have more non-PC material on them than original PC material.


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OfflineRaRaRasputin
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: DancingWolf]
    #27125811 - 01/04/21 10:42 AM (3 years, 24 days ago)

Ah, makes more sense


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: RaRaRasputin]
    #27131743 - 01/06/21 09:15 PM (3 years, 22 days ago)

The root stock is supposed to have a higher flow rate of fluid than the the scion, causing it to balloon.

Or, in farming, grafting is intended to dwarf the plant, making it easier to pick fruit.

In the case of hops grafted to mj rootstock, the scion is anecdotally supposed to produce THC.

:shrug: I haven't witnessed it, personally, but everything hasn't been discovered, yet.


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OfflinePrimal Matter
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: durian_2008]
    #27131773 - 01/06/21 09:29 PM (3 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
farming, grafting is intended to dwarf the plant, making it easier to pick fruit.




Fruit trees are (also) grafted so they mature earlier as a lot of them usually take about a decade to do so with their own roots.

Quote:


In the case of hops grafted to mj rootstock, the scion is anecdotally supposed to produce THC.

:shrug: I haven't witnessed it, personally, but everything hasn't been discovered, yet.



I know you're not making claims here but my 2c is that sounds more unlikely than likely, I wouldn't put any faith in that idea without some decent evidence. There's a lot of evidence to show it certainly doesn't work that way with cacti. But I'm all for experimentation if one can afford it.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: Primal Matter]
    #27131806 - 01/06/21 09:45 PM (3 years, 22 days ago)

Seeing as how it shares a circulatory system, I wouldn't feel right about grafting something edible onto a toxic rootstock.

Witch's broom and other pests can cause unusual tree growths, called random "sports". These have been preserved, by grafting, and are even patented.


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Re: Why graft? (regarding propagation) [Re: durian_2008] * 2
    #27132004 - 01/07/21 12:00 AM (3 years, 21 days ago)

Grafting does not change the chemical make up of a plant.

Grafting hops to cannabis does not make it psychoactive either.

Let's stick to facts here. We know both of the statements above to be true.


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