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DividedQuantum
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surface problems vs. fundamental problems
#27118214 - 12/31/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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It is true that wealth inequality is extreme around the world, and even in the comparatively wealthy U.S. Such a sharp division of the classes is unfair and unacceptable. But the fact of the matter is that if we divided up all the wealth of the billionaire class, it would not be enough to sustain everyone for more than a very brief period. According to Forbes, there are 540 billionaires in the U.S. as of 2019. Their wealth totals to $2.4 trillion. If we were simply to take this money and redistribute it across the entire population, each person would have only $8,000 -- with no subsequent income. The serious problems facing our planet today go well beyond the political and the business of dividing up the economic pie. We can't just fix all of our economic woes by sharply taxing the upper classes. (Which is not to say we shouldn't do it anyway). The fractures in our culture go much deeper than that.
It's those fractures I'd like to focus on. What you do think they are? Why is civilization so unsustainable? It would seem that trying to make corrections on the level of politics and social dynamics is futile when the system is rotting at its roots. In other words, focusing on surface manifestations does nothing to address the deeper problems. Real solutions do not seem to be on the horizon, as far as I can tell. I'd be interested in your insights.
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laughingdog
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27118517 - 12/31/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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. It sometimes amuses me that we all often talk of "America", as if the Hell's Angels, Mormons, Amish, Civil war re-enacters, weapons manufactures, tobacco manufactures, mafia, and all the other sub groups actually lived in the same "head space" or reality.
. Put differently seems 'society' here has been fractured for decades, or from the beginning, (and what we might call breakdown is what we might see when Global Warming affects food & water supplies, and the flooding of coastal cities in maybe 5-10 to 50 years).
. Back on topic, as to how this relates to your question, perhaps first it needs to be explained, why some folks want to play at the identity of being Hell's Angels and others at the game of being Amish for example, and others at the game of being rich politicians that pretend to care about people.
The only thing they all seem to have in common is being so stupid or unaware, that they are unaware of how stupid and unaware they are, coupled with the desire to mate and to produce more offspring than (1) they can properly care for, and (2) whom they will raise to be as unaware as they are.
. It seems that because humans are the only animal, that built ox carts, and then discovered arithmetic, and later made cars and cities, etc.; we assume they must have some wisdom and insight into their own inner workings and mind. It seem that in reality mentality is both (1) very compartmentalized, and (2) unintegrated with the instinctual and the emotional nature of the species. So the result is actually that without special training in dealing with this 'achilles heel' of human nature, from others who have conquered it, no one escapes from a state of ignorance that has also been referred to as being asleep.
. In summary because we are cleverer in superficial ways than other animals, we assume we have it together, and that 'nature' planned for us to be perfect, and that we are perfect. . But the reality is humans are just another evolutionary experiment, at the beginning of an experiment with no end in sight, and are unfortunately rather unbalanced in some both (1) very important ways, and that these ways (2) are very hard to see and (3) even harder to repair.
All IMO of course.
Edited by laughingdog (12/31/20 02:38 PM)
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Yellow Pants


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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27118543 - 12/31/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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I’d preface this with I am not sure and don’t have the answers. That being said I think society is a misunderstanding. Not in the sense that people don’t know what it is but in the sense that people coming together and being on the same page and sharing the same perspective etc. is contrary to our nature taken as a whole. In short, the fractures are going to be there naturally. What are the fractures? I think it is just difference of opinion. Tom zigs while Chris zags. Given hundreds of millions of people billions even that is a lot of crossed wires zigging and zagging. Temper expectations I conclude
Or on second thought maybe some grand collective movement towards unity is on the horizon or highly advised. I for one do not get the sense that society is anything more than an incidental and arbitrary melting pot of difference of opinion where ones collective expectations should be lower than what they are. This can’t be a healthy mindset and I doubt I’m the only one. There just simply doesn’t seem to be a camaraderie amongst the species. Maybe this is merely me reflecting my own negativity or maybe it’s a part of something bigger 
Of course I’m somewhat of a spring chicken at 30 years old probably struggle to see the forest through the trees, at any rate I look a lot to Chris Hedges to supply sociological analysis as he seems to know what he is talking about. Has a lot of great books and lectures out there that I imagine would really satisfy this topic. On the idea of large scale problems and smaller scale problems he has elaborated much about this. Death of the liberal class, end of literacy, tv culture, crap communication, drug abuse, unwillingness to take a stand politically etc. all culminating towards billions of people being owned by a modern aristocracy that seeks control. Something along those lines
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laughingdog
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27118665 - 12/31/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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On a less fundamental level, I'm sure sociologists and other such types have examined different societies, nations, and cultures; and found some that are much nicer than others; and from this data tried to imagine how better ones work, and might work.
This has also been a subject for examining long trips where people have been confined on a boat, both in reality and in fiction. And in Science fiction on space ships.
But I still think, the fundamental issues have to do with the disconnect between instincts/emotions and reason, due to brain structure. We forget that all children naturally bite each other, and are often quite cruel. How this is dealt with varies between cultures. And there are 2 more disconnects.
1) Human birth rate is controlled by food supply. At the hunter gatherer stage, or yesterday in evolutionary time, this worked; and population size of humans was in harmony with the surrounding ecology. However as the natural external regulator has been removed by human technology, and the mating instinct not mitigated, the ecological balance has been totally destroyed world wide. I see no remedy for this.
2) The other major flaw of humans is mental. It is a mix of xenophobia, ossification of self, and identification with thought. That is, we take on a rather rigid view of who we are, who others are, and gradually begin to believe in more and more questionable myths. All this translates into becoming more aggressive as time passes, both for the individual and culture. And aggressivity is a form of unaware stupidity when it becomes the default mode.
All IMO of course.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: laughingdog]
#27118811 - 12/31/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: . It sometimes amuses me that we all often talk of "America", as if the Hell's Angels, Mormons, Amish, Civil war re-enacters, weapons manufactures, tobacco manufactures, mafia, and all the other sub groups actually lived in the same "head space" or reality.
. Put differently seems 'society' here has been fractured for decades, or from the beginning, (and what we might call breakdown is what we might see when Global Warming affects food & water supplies, and the flooding of coastal cities in maybe 5-10 to 50 years).
. Back on topic, as to how this relates to your question, perhaps first it needs to be explained, why some folks want to play at the identity of being Hell's Angels and others at the game of being Amish for example, and others at the game of being rich politicians that pretend to care about people.
The only thing they all seem to have in common is being so stupid or unaware, that they are unaware of how stupid and unaware they are, coupled with the desire to mate and to produce more offspring than (1) they can properly care for, and (2) whom they will raise to be as unaware as they are.
. It seems that because humans are the only animal, that built ox carts, and then discovered arithmetic, and later made cars and cities, etc.; we assume they must have some wisdom and insight into their own inner workings and mind. It seem that in reality mentality is both (1) very compartmentalized, and (2) unintegrated with the instinctual and the emotional nature of the species. So the result is actually that without special training in dealing with this 'achilles heel' of human nature, from others who have conquered it, no one escapes from a state of ignorance that has also been referred to as being asleep.
. In summary because we are cleverer in superficial ways than other animals, we assume we have it together, and that 'nature' planned for us to be perfect, and that we are perfect. . But the reality is humans are just another evolutionary experiment, at the beginning of an experiment with no end in sight, and are unfortunately rather unbalanced in some both (1) very important ways, and that these ways (2) are very hard to see and (3) even harder to repair.
All IMO of course.
Quote:
laughingdog said: On a less fundamental level, I'm sure sociologists and other such types have examined different societies, nations, and cultures; and found some that are much nicer than others; and from this data tried to imagine how better ones work, and might work.
This has also been a subject for examining long trips where people have been confined on a boat, both in reality and in fiction. And in Science fiction on space ships.
But I still think, the fundamental issues have to do with the disconnect between instincts/emotions and reason, due to brain structure. We forget that all children naturally bite each other, and are often quite cruel. How this is dealt with varies between cultures. And there are 2 more disconnects.
1) Human birth rate is controlled by food supply. At the hunter gatherer stage, or yesterday in evolutionary time, this worked; and population size of humans was in harmony with the surrounding ecology. However as the natural external regulator has been removed by human technology, and the mating instinct not mitigated, the ecological balance has been totally destroyed world wide. I see no remedy for this.
2) The other major flaw of humans is mental. It is a mix of xenophobia, ossification of self, and identification with thought. That is, we take on a rather rigid view of who we are, who others are, and gradually begin to believe in more and more questionable myths. All this translates into becoming more aggressive as time passes, both for the individual and culture. And aggressivity is a form of unaware stupidity when it becomes the default mode.
All IMO of course.
Wonderful posts. I agree that we are still largely governed by our emotional brain, and that this causes all sorts of cross-ups with the rational mind. Martin Luther famously said, "Reason is a whore." What he meant of course is that, even when we have constructed what appear to be rational patterns of thought, they are really still rooted in a sublimated complex of emotions. (I think this could even apply to logic, insofar as axioms are a "best-guess.")
Naturally, the whole shithouse sort of explodes when there are billions of people around. We have gone so far beyond a healthy ecological situation that the inevitable consequences are very much here, and obvious for people who are not biased or brainwashed. I don't care what anyone says about artificial scarcity or sufficient resources or any of that crap -- eight billion people is far, far too many on a number of levels.
I concurrently see this as an insoluble problem. Genocide is clearly not an acceptable solution.
Your thoughts on unaware stupidity are spot-on. It is ubiquitous, and most people are simply not intelligent enough to understand any of this. If conscientiousness is required for progress, then there will be no progress.
Your thoughts about the ossification and rigidity of thought remind me of Robert Anton Wilson's term "reality-tunnels." His thesis was that most domesticated primates have very rigid reality-tunnels, and the major problem is that most people do not have the talent to place themselves into a different one, if only just to explore it. So everyone is stuck in a rather destructive reality-tunnel, and quite unwilling or unable to try to sympathize with someone else's.
This can clearly lead to aggressive behavior, and as we know in history the aggressive result is most often the rule. There is no reason to suspect humans have changed in this regard.
So there are very clear fissures even before we get to the surface structures of civilization. It was, seemingly, doomed from the start. I would add that, aside from the human nature angle, the whole set of memes that are the cultural basis of civilization are also very fragmentary, to the point that success is precluded from the start. But that is a whole different perspective.
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laughingdog
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27119000 - 12/31/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 27 days ago) |
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. One would like to assume that meditation, and good intentions alter the picture for the better. However it would seem although this may work for some, on a larger and also important scale it does not work.
..."As with many religious sex scandals, this is old news to insiders. Other Zen roshis with similar allegations against them include Richard Baker, Joshu Sasaki, Taizan Maezumi—the list goes on, really. The pattern is disturbingly familiar from Catholic, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish, and similar systematic abuse scandals: insiders made aware, positive values of spiritual teacher stressed, abuse hushed up, abuse repeated."...etc.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-shocking-scandal-at-the-heart-of-american-zen
. If one has the stomach for it, there are probably hundreds of links that deal with such matters.
. So although at one level there are brain wave studies and brain scans that prove some good effects from meditation, there is also the poor track record of this translating to real solutions in the real world.
. So it seems the so called "reptilian brain" is not so easily domesticated, or the self so easily softened to as to become happy with altruism.
. Accepting that this has long been so, perhaps gives one an appreciation of the great satirists, of literature & art, who found humor the best way to cope with "the human condition".
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: laughingdog]
#27120231 - 01/01/21 11:50 AM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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I like the language "it seems the so called 'reptilian brain' is not so easily domesticated." I couldn't have put it better myself.
Indeed, it seems to me that there has been a constant small sliver of the population, maybe half of a percent or so, that have turned themselves on with meditation, philosophy, meaningful education, writing, art -- what have you -- and that this group has been rather powerless over the last few thousand years to turn on everyone else. And that's just the way it is and will very probably continue. So we always have optimistic calls to arms about the masses transforming themselves, which never seem to be answered.
I agree that humor and wit are one of the best ways of dealing with this unfortunate, unchanging reality. My favorite of this class is Bierce.
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redgreenvines
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27120369 - 01/01/21 12:55 PM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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I do not consider turning on everybody else as significantly part of any workable plan.
such synchronization is only likely among the who's in Whoville - dr.Seuss
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: redgreenvines]
#27120652 - 01/01/21 03:43 PM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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That is indeed my point. And as long as the masses maintain a mental and spiritual status quo, not being "turned on" in any meaningful way, society and culture will not improve significantly.
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redgreenvines
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27120840 - 01/01/21 05:53 PM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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but it could persist for eons
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Rahz
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27121089 - 01/01/21 08:21 PM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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What extra money people do make, they tend to spend it quickly. Can we really blame the rich for getting richer when a majority are begging for their money to be taken from them? The poor tend to be just as materialistic and wasteful as the rich. Needful things.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: Rahz]
#27121103 - 01/01/21 08:29 PM (3 years, 26 days ago) |
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I don't really distinguish the rich from the poor when I consider the fact that if a poor person were suddenly thrust into a rich man's shoes, he would behave like any other rich person, and when I consider the fact that we are all playing the same game.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27121748 - 01/02/21 09:19 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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It may be obvious to note but people are needy when I think about it. Go without food for a day much less a week or month and crap starts to hit the fan. When it’s cold we get hypothermia. Without emotional and social maintenance we go insane and depressed and increase likelihood of regressive or aggressive behavior. A natural disaster, disease could ruin everything. A great deal of labor is simply required for maintenance and to not go crazy and desperate. Now toss onto this difference of opinion and it becomes clear why there always seems to be fractures
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: Rahz]
#27122204 - 01/02/21 02:33 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
What extra money people do make, they tend to spend it quickly. Can we really blame the rich for getting richer when a majority are begging for their money to be taken from them? The poor tend to be just as materialistic and wasteful as the rich. Needful things.
That's not a perspective we hear often! I know people who never made a big wage but have a huge pile of money in the bank. The skill of discipline and restraint isn't taught in many families. Heck, many parents model the opposite.
Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
It may be obvious to note but people are needy when I think about it.
I hate that the word "needy" is usually derogatory. As if needing is a bad (or weak) thing for an animal to do?! BTW, I know people who say they hope to die quickly so they do not become a "burden" to others. That would be terrible! "I don't want to be a burden" We forget we were helpless for many years after we were born.
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InnerWisdom


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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27122238 - 01/02/21 02:57 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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I'm gonna argue that a good enough economical system, government, political system and civil services go a long way in not allowing the fundamental problems to manifest in society. I suppose you point to the problems that arise from our very nature and imperfections.
No country has found the best working system and best people in all the top power positions (that is an individual responsibility anyways), but some have it better than others.
Government, economics, civil services all have to work well in a country or city for people to have the maximum chances to success and wellbeing in their lives.
I dont know if this is exactly on par with the subject but its what I thought about.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27122386 - 01/02/21 04:14 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Those are good points, but I would point out that the world over at this point, despite the best governments and most orderly societies (like in Scandinavia), our whole mode of consumption is unsustainable. The planet is in crisis environmentally. This cannot go on forever. That is one aspect of what I was pointing to. There are also 3.5 billion below one of the established poverty lines, which no one seems to know what to do about. That is another aspect. None of this has anything to do with activity at the level of government, or at least never has. We started out unsustainably (10,000 ya) and it's just getting more and more amplified.
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Edited by DividedQuantum (01/02/21 04:27 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27122561 - 01/02/21 06:09 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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that's an interesting attitude!
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InnerWisdom


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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27122997 - 01/03/21 12:23 AM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Ok so a country may be so poor that there is not enough wealth to distribute around so the unemployed get economical support. But in countries where there is, the problem is in the distribution of the wealth which has to do with the government. However in many poor areas where child mortality is high they just have lots of children and those children may never get out of poverty because they can't get to school because they have to help the family by working.
From what I understand things are better now than ever regarding poverty and starvation globally.
Consumerism and global warming are indeed problems that can't be solved quickly, but wealthy countries are doing something and technology is improving and becoming more widely used that has less carbon emissions. The 3rd world countries need to reach a sufficient level of gdp per capita before people get interested.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27123429 - 01/03/21 08:50 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: Ok so a country may be so poor that there is not enough wealth to distribute around so the unemployed get economical support. But in countries where there is, the problem is in the distribution of the wealth which has to do with the government. However in many poor areas where child mortality is high they just have lots of children and those children may never get out of poverty because they can't get to school because they have to help the family by working.
From what I understand things are better now than ever regarding poverty and starvation globally.
Consumerism and global warming are indeed problems that can't be solved quickly, but wealthy countries are doing something and technology is improving and becoming more widely used that has less carbon emissions. The 3rd world countries need to reach a sufficient level of gdp per capita before people get interested.
Well, on the one hand, the number of people in extreme poverty has decreased over the last decade. On the other, 3.5 billion people live on less than $5.50 per day. So the picture is not exactly rosy.
How do you propose to address the holocene extinction? Climate change is not the only environmental issue. And there is still no proposed solution on climate change.
Do you really feel governments are capable of addressing these issues in a timely manner? We don't have much time left. And which governments? And how? I argue that some of these deep fissures are deeper than government is able to go.
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InnerWisdom


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Re: surface problems vs. fundamental problems [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#27123512 - 01/03/21 09:43 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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I dont think governments can do and should do much against extinction and climate change except criminalizing certain things like poaching and irresponsible waste management, pollution etc.
I'm not sure there are any fissures really. Just the explosion of population and technology in a time span of 2-3 generations.
what do you think are these fissures/fractures in our (?) culture?
I think there is a problem with spiritual wellbeing for the majority of people and a kind of poverty of meaningful life that drives overconsumption, consumerism etc. I'm gonna have to keep this vague out of laziness.
Edited by InnerWisdom (01/03/21 09:44 AM)
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