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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Rahz]
    #27108846 - 12/26/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you, but my only intent was to counter the OP. I agree it's not black and white.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27108879 - 12/26/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Cool. I wasn't replying to or taking exception to anything you were saying. It was just a general comment toward the thread. Sorry for the confusion.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Rahz]
    #27108884 - 12/26/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineSirshovel
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27108932 - 12/26/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Because it really isn't novel if you think about it. All art is created based on something else, so nothing new is truly made. I cannot say the same about nature though but I wouldn't hazard to say the process is different. Looking through art history (which I took in college), nothing was truly new or inspiring but heaven forbid you tell the teacher that.

Side note: elephants don't exist, just the concept of an elephant, there is no permanent and unchanging thing we can call an elephant, etc.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27109110 - 12/26/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think you are hung up on stamping things out, which is a natural assembly line, the way proteins are spun out of ribosomes by stamping the right amino acid against the growing chain based upon the RNA that is being expressed.
this goes on billions of times per second without any mental interventions.

we are constantly making ourselves according to our genes and our diet in our life at our homes etc.

that part is the everyday.

making art, even everyday making of art is not everyday.

it is always a foray into something timeless and human. this may not be easy to express or understand, but when we touch something and change it,  it becomes an extension of our minds, and our minds can reach out to other minds via the marks we make on paper, the shapes we build, the music we make.

this is so even when the themes, arrangements and tunes are recognized as something familiar. The familiar connection is very meaningful, as is the  unique expression of any insular self.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27109158 - 12/26/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
What is creative? Create something that relates to nothing else? No, creative means to use something pre-existing to create a new whole. Otherwise the only creation was the universe.
In regards to art, there would be almost no art if every separate idea or expression could only be done once...




Contingency - if that’s the right word.  Creativity fashions from the pre existing.  I agree that the nuts and bolts don’t change in some empirical sense but that is the plumbing level of reality.  Creativity is not foundational.  But uses it

Which makes me think TMs novelty theory may be off.  Novelty might be fashionable but not empirically valid.  Physical is about repetition and foundation and basic order.  Beside the point


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Rahz]
    #27110780 - 12/27/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."




:smile:


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OfflineSirshovel
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27110821 - 12/27/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What is human isn't exactly "human" though. Other animals use tools and shape their world, even have culture. We ain't that special it turns out. I wouldn't call what we do timeless either as everything withers away eventually.

It doesn't even become an extension of our minds or anything at all really since art only exists in the mind, not reality, like any concept.

With that said, have you actually made anything?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27110988 - 12/27/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."




:smile:



yikes :smile:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27111295 - 12/27/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Re: "Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made?'

.  It turns out that there is no absolute answer to your question, because you haven't defined what you mean by "new".

.  Anything new will actually be made of old atoms and molecules, and exist in the same old 3 dimensional space, and be impermanent. So yes, on these grounds we can say nothing is new.

.  But if someone offers to give us a new car, to replace an old one that is falling apart, ( as they must leave the country on very short notice, for example), we will gladly say: "Thank you for the NEW car."

.  So you need to do something new, in phrasing your old question, if you want, anyone to respond with a new answer, to what is by now, not only an old question, but a poorly formed one, that of necessity will always continue to defeat itself.

.  Of course once you actually define what you mean by "new", "creative", and "art", the superficiality of the question will become obvious. Quite often superficiality disguises itself in ambiguity as something profound.
.  Of course if no one really wants an answer, but rather wants a game or pastime, where spouting opinions, is taken to be meaningful, then ambiguities of this sort are ideal. It all depends on what the players want.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27111524 - 12/28/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The concept of "new" is entirely relative, so there's actually more "newness", on a constant basis, relatively speaking...


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27111542 - 12/28/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Its creative because it takes our ingenuity.. our skill and compassion.

In reality there are two types of people..:

First, beings that were created. Second, beings that have always existed..(like Adam Kadmon). The true host oversoul to the many masses.

The truncated part of the tree exists so people can save themselves..
By practicing klipoth (The dark side of the tree Qabbalah) daily is good for defense against magical attackers.. which is the most effective way for ancient immortals to harm somebody..


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27111545 - 12/28/20 01:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Novelty is made of chaos..

Something new is just an extension of something before.. Explicate order..

The implicate order is the fact that even though something is new it still fits in or blends into the order of all things.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27111546 - 12/28/20 01:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Conservation is of habit necessarily..

So habits are branched out of order and chaos.. The order being the habit.. The chaos being the novelty.. the difference


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27112067 - 12/28/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: "Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made?'
It turns out that there is no absolute answer to your question, because you haven't defined what you mean by "new" ... , "creative", and "art", ...

...Of course if no one really wants an answer, but rather wants a game or pastime, where spouting opinions, is taken to be meaningful, then ambiguities of this sort are ideal. It all depends on what the players want.




Given that spouting dogmatic opinions seems to be desired,
(as its much easier than defining terms)
Sirshovel's statement: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? ... Because it really isn't novel if you think about it. All art is created based on something else, so nothing new is truly made. I cannot say the same about nature though but I wouldn't hazard to say the process is different. ..." etc etc.,

will do as well as any other statement.
You are all right and correct.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27113340 - 12/29/20 12:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Novelty is made of chaos..

Something new is just an extension of something before.. Explicate order..

The implicate order is the fact that even though something is new it still fits in or blends into the order of all things.




Keep this in mind when I refer to determinism with you down the road, because this is the perfect example of you logically following it forward and backward (a good thing)!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineSirshovel
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27114199 - 12/29/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: "Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made?'

.  It turns out that there is no absolute answer to your question, because you haven't defined what you mean by "new".

.  Anything new will actually be made of old atoms and molecules, and exist in the same old 3 dimensional space, and be impermanent. So yes, on these grounds we can say nothing is new.

.  But if someone offers to give us a new car, to replace an old one that is falling apart, ( as they must leave the country on very short notice, for example), we will gladly say: "Thank you for the NEW car."

.  So you need to do something new, in phrasing your old question, if you want, anyone to respond with a new answer, to what is by now, not only an old question, but a poorly formed one, that of necessity will always continue to defeat itself.

.  Of course once you actually define what you mean by "new", "creative", and "art", the superficiality of the question will become obvious. Quite often superficiality disguises itself in ambiguity as something profound.
.  Of course if no one really wants an answer, but rather wants a game or pastime, where spouting opinions, is taken to be meaningful, then ambiguities of this sort are ideal. It all depends on what the players want.




New in the case of art is something that has not been done before. Since all art is based on something that already exists nothing is new is made hence art cannot be called creative.

If you wanted to anthropomorphize nature you could argue nature is creative in that animals show up that are truly novel. Humans however can never lay claim to that.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27114290 - 12/29/20 01:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I cannot think of anything anywhere anywhen which would satisfy some people here as compliant with the absolute requisite of indisputably non-derivative newness or even non-derivative existence.

it seems to me that dependent origination prevails universally even in quantum physics.

the question in my mind is "who gives a flying fuck? if you appreciate the art you got a bonus experience, and if not, move on."

Those convoluted artist statements are not that helpful in getting the appreciation going, but they mean a lot to some parts of the art world.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27114684 - 12/29/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The iching points out that humans live in a limited world ...
only 3 dimensions, only 6 primary colors, etc.
if we understand this, then our expectations are in line with reality.

If we want flying purple unicorns we will always be disappointed.

As RGV hints of more value may be ; asking ourselves how we can feel more appreciative, and so enjoy life more.

Advertisers certainly hit upon a formula for success by getting Americans to associate "new" with "good", where-as in Europe where there is hundreds of years of more history, cathedrals and castles, what is old and traditional may be more valued, as well as in native and traditional cultures. Which casts some doubt on the absolute formula of new with good that the advertisers sold Americans on in the pursuit of profit.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27114726 - 12/29/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

the move on part figures as well.


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