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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Posts: 4,563
Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Kwyjibo] * 1
    #27176709 - 01/29/21 05:27 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

You're doing an awful lot of rationalizing man. If it doesn't feel like it will work, then don't think it will. When you combine too many radical ideas with words like polyamory, you're just setting yourself up for an involuntary committal to a psych hospital. Successfully violating a deep social norm like mating behavior is way too complex for most people to figure out by itself, and it usually gives a fleeting high followed by a long period of suffering if it doesn't end when it's ripe. All that other complexity just adds to the instability and inevitable despair that follows from the collapse of the completely unrealistic expectations. It's kinda like the rule of only breaking one law at a time to avoid being caught. Pat yourself on the back for the good sex and connection, admit the truth about it not being sustainable, and end it now so you can enjoy the memory later in life. That good memory will be your reward for making a good decision now; otherwise you'll probably have to come back here and eat crow on top of all the other suffering.


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
    #27177325 - 01/30/21 02:27 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

As your lawyer who has NOT taken solid advice regarding these matters; I advise you to take some of this advice posted here


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27177961 - 01/30/21 12:50 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27178104 - 01/30/21 02:43 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

nah man, you did the right thing IMHO. Sounds like the possibly-brainwashed crazy sexy sex-drug-cult chick was sort of manipulating you anyway, which may or may not have been intentional on her part, though it definitely is kind of sad to watch that kind of dysfunction overtake someone you care about. You made a decision that set clear boundaries and you respected yourself while doing your best to be fair, considerate, and respectful to the other party. Not bad man. That's about the best anyone can do, so you shouldn't have regrets about your actions later. I'll let the crow fly away since you won't be eating it. Maybe you'll figure stuff out with your wife too. It sounds like she might be interested in some exploration and excitement, so if that's something you want to pursue, then maybe it'll evolve into something other than what it was before. It's your call man, just keep your wits about you. :shrug:


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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27178204 - 01/30/21 04:27 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #1 said:
Stating it's not right I should do it with her solo as it might give her romantic feeling towards me again.



"I need to take drugs to like you."
I was wrong, you shouldn't even be friends with her.


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27178344 - 01/30/21 06:44 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

She is a bad person man you should get back together with your wife and forget about the hold she had on you if your wife actually loves you
Your idea of idealism is just that an idea
Stay with something real until something REALER and better comes along

OR just be alone if they're both not good for you and they're toxic in anyway

That's the hardest option


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #27179166 - 01/31/21 10:23 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27179171 - 01/31/21 10:26 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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Anonymous #2

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #27179251 - 01/31/21 11:18 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Have you got in contact with a therapist? My reading of you is that you're looking for something; I only recommend a therapist because they are of the profession of people who help people find whatever it is they need to find-- its unfortunate the word contains such a stigma today, but hopefully that changes.

Consider it for no other reason than they will help you answer the questions your asking on this thread.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27179266 - 01/31/21 11:33 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Block that bitch! She isn't looking out for your wife's feelings by suggest that you'll hurt her more if you leave again.  She's FUCKING MANIPULATING YOU DUDE!

She wants to have her cake and eat it too and she's getting sick fuckin jollies off of keeping some sense of control over you.  You seem smart enough to know this.  Please for the sake of men everywhere, don't let her leave and fuck other dudes while keeping her sense of control over you.  You already explained that she got upset when you talked about possibly having something with your wife

TBH she sounds like a fuckin narcissist and a pretty good one at that.  They are quite crafty at faking intimacy and caring when IT SERVES THEIR INTERESTS and believe me, this woman doesn't give 2 shits about you or your wife

I suggest blocking her completely and forever and never thinking about her again.  If you can't do that, try an experiment on her.  Tell her about how you and your wife and reconciling and how great things are going (yes, lie about shit). 

Make her jealous and she will show you who she really is


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: Anonymous #2] * 1
    #27179270 - 01/31/21 11:36 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #27179314 - 01/31/21 11:54 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


Edited by Anonymous (01/31/21 12:05 PM)


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Anonymous #2

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1] * 1
    #27179500 - 01/31/21 02:24 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Anyone that you want; we here on the shroomery tend to do a lot of introspective work which is great, but alongside this the west has created a scaffolding for introspection which is psychotherapy. Its incredibly robust and equally as useful as any other kind of "inward looking" you can do. The most important thing is "shopping around" for a guide you can relate to and feel you can place trust in. That part is awkward and disheartening but once you find the right therapist, a lot of good can be done. Bad therapists will cause damage.


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InvisibleMr.GuessWork
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Posts: 4,563
Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #2] * 2
    #27179534 - 01/31/21 02:52 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure if you're asking for advice anymore, but if you just use your brain and reflect on what you do while you try to make good decisions, and talk shit over with your friends and various crazy people on the shroomery, then you probably don't need therapy and you're in the same boat most of us are in. Reading up on the psychology behind things you don't understand can help you make predictions about how people will behave or help you understand why people are behaving a certain way, and I'd recommend doing that reading if you want to understand yourself and others, but ultimately the only person who can make you feel good about your life is you. Paying a therapist or banging a sexed-up crazy chick can only do so much to make you feel good in the long term. it can be a nice high, but it's fleeting. A GOOD therapist can help you understand things and develop a plan for how to think things through, particularly if you're in a bad spot, but the good ones are rarer than you'd think, and you ultimately have to do your own work or it won't work. Bad therapists can do damage just like bad doctors can, and it's easy to be a bad therapist. You should be careful about who you entrust the care of your mind to. If there's no emergency, then do your best to educate yourself before trusting what you're told.


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Offlinelots
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Registered: 09/12/18
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1] * 2
    #27180075 - 01/31/21 10:26 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

First of all, thanks for posting all this! It brought up a lot for me concerning my own relationships and struggles I've had.

This response may wander a bit, since I have many things to say, in no particular order. This advice is all a projection of myself and my experiences, so take what fits, throw away what doesn't. I hope some of it is helpful and hits the mark.

As far as therapy goes, I highly recommend it. It is a slow process and it is important you find someone that you feel you can speak about anything with, including psychedelics, BDSM (I am making that assumption since you spoke of bondage gear), etc. MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies) has a list of practitioners that offer integration services, so you know that those professionals are open to the healing power and use of psychedelics. I found my first therapist at an inservice at the job I was working. The main point is that you need to be able to connect with your therapist. If they turn you off from the beginning with their...um...everything, look for someone that feels right for where you are at. It is some of the best money I've spent. 15 years ago, friend told me that he did therapy and he recommended it to everyone. My immediate response was: "Why, I don't need it! I'm not crazy! How dare you suggest such blasphemy!" To which he replied: "no, no, as personal growth and for better self knowledge. For help with whatever you may be struggling with as a human being in this infinitely complex and at times very painful experience."

Good therapy, good relationships and psychedelics have made me an infinitely better person. If you start looking and asking around to your friends and the universe, you will be open to when someone presents themselves to help. The hardest part for me is always realizing I need help and asking for it, as well as admitting that I can't do it on my own.

I want to acknowledge that you and this woman had/have a real connection. It seems like you both saw each other and let yourselves be seen in ways that you have never done with anyone before. You saw and showed the good, the bad, the mysterious, and the downright irrationally confusing parts of yourselves. That is powerful and to be honored and celebrated, because it is fucking rare and very difficult to find and then let go of. It is also very complex. It also tends to diminish boundaries so that you will lose yourselves to the intoxicating togetherness. You may no longer be meeting each other, but floating in shared bliss of ego death. Inevitably all of your baggage will make an entrance and be triggered. Psychedelics, sex, and BDSM are a powerful mix. Using each other as therapists, lovers, trip partners, spiritual communers, friends and more is also a way that boundaries get tangled. It is not a bad thing. It just gets deeply confusing and complex. And you need to be able to come back to yourselves. I have had it. I had to leave. It was immensely painful for both of us. We stayed in touch as much as we both could handle, learned to set boundaries and came back together 1+ year later, having done a LOT of healing and also still being madly in love. We are now together in ways I couldn't even imagine. She healed deep trauma in ways that I didn't even know were possible, but gives me hope for all those that are suffering and for myself. It wasn't easy, but healing to an easier, more open, more real and joyfilled existence is possible. Even if you have to let go of her for now, you cannot know what will happen.

I applaud your desire to look inwards and humble yourself to your own limitations. I believe that relationships that feel compatible and real are not an accident. Each partner in the relationship plays a part. It was easy for me to write my partner off as "crazy," or "irrational," while I was the together one. But if I am so together and sane, what am I doing with someone so crazy and irrational? I had to look at my own desire to "save" her, be the "good" man and the ways I was playing into my own shame of being a man. I had to confront my own psychotically hot-cold behavior and the ways I would say one thing and then flip-flop in a way that came across as gas-lighting. I had to confront the weird backwards ways I would manipulate her to stay in control. I wasn't even aware of these things. I found early childhood trauma that I knew was there, but wouldn't have called trauma, yet it influenced how little I could trust love and relationship.

I think some people play games. If you aren't looking for games in your life, don't play them. Be as real as you can be. I also think that more often than not, we are blind to our own patterns. The things she is doing out of shame or guilt and that feel manipulative have been reinforced through her whole life baggage. And also, don't imagine that you are innocent in this dance. It takes two. You each are learning from each other. You are each acting out unconscious patterns that you are blind to because you are human and all humans have some kind of trauma. It sounds like you too want to save her. It seems like you get a lot out of having power in that way. A good way to "save" her may be to listen and try to understand what her experience is like. I know you said that you are so similar to each other, but that can lead to thinking that you know what she is talking about, when actually you just assume that the words she says, mean the same to her as to you. Never quite the case. We all come from different cultures, class, families, education, ideologies, etc.

I think you are doing the right thing by focusing on yourself. This is painful for you. It is also painful for her. It is OK to be pissed as hell at the weird behavior she is doing. It is also OK to say that you need space for a bit from the incessant online contact that I imagine also leads to incessant mind chatter and overthinking of loads of confusing bullshit. It is also incredibly difficult to understand subtext over text message or even phone calls. She has some issues and so do you, because once again, you seem like normal humans with all sorts of human baggage. Many people pretend like they have no issues and numb all their emotions with whatever is handy. I do that too, because everything is exhausting at times and "fuck it," I just gonna binge watch some Watchmen.

There are more options than "Let's stay in contact," or "fuck you, let's never talk again." That is very black and white thinking in a world that has infinite shades of color. You can ask yourself what feels best for you, for your highest good (whatever that looks like for you). Literally ask yourself. And listen to the deep felt space inside of you, to your heart, to your blood, to your body and being, not the chattering monkey mind. And it is very OK to have boundaries, to ask for what you need from her and tell you what your experience is like from her behaviors. You can try to analyze her all you want, but I find it better for communication to speak about what it is like for me and to ask questions about what is going on and be open to understanding the strange psyche behind said behavior.

If your experience is anything like mine, then it is terrifying. To be seen that deeply and to feel that connected shatters my ego. It takes everything I think I know about myself and my independence and throws it out the window. It fucks all my deep held beliefs to bloody pulp. It feels like I no longer have a ground to stand on and even worse I have to trust this being that I'm partnering with that seems completely irrational and untrustworthy from my observations. Trust only comes with time and with asking for what you need to build that trust. What I'm saying is that you both found something that is so risky and scary that all of your issues come up, because so much is at stake. That is really special. Be grateful you had that experience, because you can learn so much, whether you move on from each other to other relationships, or if you end up together for more. Or if you just meet up every few months and have the most divine sex without getting attached in other ways (if that is possible). But you need to untangle from each other. Your sanity and insanity cannot be reliant on each other. You've gotta use that connection and realness to have a conversation with each other about what you each want in this moment and what are able to give. As well as what feels messed up and wrong, and what boundaries you need.

I don't see a hurry to do anything drastic and black or white. Take care of yourselves and build your individual lives. Maybe limit contact if that feels right. Acknowledge how it feels that she is with someone else. Acknowledge if it feels different because he is mediocre and a push-over, while you were the best sex and connection ever? Do you get a rush out of knowing she is jealous of your ex-wife? Do you like it when she checks in or when she breaks down so you can be a safe place for her difficult emotions? Do you know what she is afraid of, or what you are afraid of? Can you see yourselves together as you are, or does she have to change completely? She seems incredibly afraid of losing you and this connection. Maybe some of the power and control you have over her is that you can cut that all off and keep telling her that is a possibility. Is that true-ish? She is also seemingly afraid of being with you, for whatever reason.

You can go slow. Feel it out. Make small shifts. Find what feels safe and slowly open up. It sounds like it was a whirlwind of blowing everything up and just going full blast. This may be the fallout of that explosion. Maybe time to rebuild your house and slow it down and acknowledge how powerful your chemistry and connection is. Treat yourselves and each other gently. I don't think either of you are malicious.

I think you both need your own ground to stand on. What that looks like I don't know. But a way in which you feel complete and safe as yourselves, so that you can meet without fear of loss and need to control. Too many psychedelics too fast can snatch that away, for either of you. Staying entangled in new ways will also keep you from seeing each other as you are and keep weird games in play. 

I'm writing a novel here! 

If any of this comes across as judgmental, that is not my intention. As a fellow seeker and human being, I feel you. Obviously, your story touches me enough that I read the whole thread and also took the time to write all this to a complete stranger on the internet (not my normal behavior). I see myself in you. It may all be projection. I was once just as fucked by a deep relationship. It will change, which way I know not. Luckily all emotion moves and evolves if you let it.

And once again, I can have a lot of this wrong, and she may be completely batshit. In any case, it seems pretty clear like you both need space for at least a bit. She is supposedly with someone else, but wants to hang on to you, and it must be torture for you to keep trying to figure out WTF. So take a break, if that feels right.

You mentioned her spiral of self destructive behavior/self improvement/fix herself. I had the same feeling with my partner, like "Oh fuck, this is never-ending". Part of that I think is a twist that women get put on them in this patriarchy. It has to do with being perfect, never fucking up, and getting judged harder for most things. Fuck ups and mistakes become a personal failing for my partner. The thing I've also found with her is that she feels the world in such a different way than me. Everything is heightened. I love that about her. And also the highs are so much higher and the lows so much lower. I have learned to trust that I can be there in those lows and that I can be solid, non-judgmental, not have to save her, offer my observations, if she can hear them, and she will ride out of it. It may come back in a few days/weeks/months, but all of our shit tends to do that, until we have learned whatever lesson from it. I've also been able to share those fears with her, so we could talk about it. Secrets never work out for a good relationship.

It is easy to be confused in human relationships. It is easy to be confused in internal journeying. It is hard for me to acknowledge my own emotions and I would much rather put the problem on the world or anyone else. By looking at what I project onto the world, I can learn about myself. Both of you are learning from each other, and if that journey together ends now, you have still learned a shit-ton. Enough to keep integrating for years into your respective lives.

Take care of yourself, that is all you gotta do. Let her figure out her shit, while you figure out you. And thank you for reaching out for help on this forum. I am overjoyed that you got to experience that depth of relationship and communion. Shit like that makes life worth living. It makes me so excited about being human and helps me know that the possibilities are beyond my imagining. Deep, sexy, drippy, loving, connected, open, joyous, real, relationship is possible, maybe not with her, but at least what you have already shared sounds divine. At least you are one of the lucky ones who have had the courage to touch the divine, in love, with another being. And that is not for nothing.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: lots]
    #27180175 - 02/01/21 12:53 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
I DID-DENT
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Registered: 08/31/13
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27180258 - 02/01/21 04:02 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

She's a narcissist and you are hook line and sinker.  Get out now.  She will ruin your life.  Being intelligent and interesting doesn't make you a good person.  You are in heavy denial right now.  Divorce your wife and find a new chick; she isn't giving you any intimacy rn anyway.  Not even promising future intimacy


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #27180611 - 02/01/21 09:50 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

OP, I can tell you aren't gonna do the right thing for yourself.

I'm hiding this thread after posting this and I wish you luck but...my feeling is you're going to let this bitch (and I mean that in the harshest possible way) run you into the ground for years to come

I sincerely hope you man up and stop acting like a little bitch


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Offlinelots
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Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #27180923 - 02/01/21 12:19 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for considering all of that! I'm glad I wasn't totally off base and I had the feeling that you were in a space to hear the things that fit without getting defensive about the parts that didn't resonate, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered writing so much. Writing about relationship, love, sex, growth and self reflection was also the perfect thing to do while my substrate was in the pressure cooker!

Feel free to PM me. I don't mind having a public discussion either. It's up to you what feels right and safe.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Should I stay in contact or remove myself from her life? *DELETED* [Re: lots] * 1
    #27181031 - 02/01/21 01:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Anonymous

Reason for deletion: As per previous reason? *shrug*


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