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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Planing my Laminar Flow Hood
    #27108700 - 12/26/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey guys,

slowly I am starting to make plans for a laminar flow hood, currently the "last position" where I could increase my setup to a few levels higher.
Wanna save money till february and then buy the stuff to build it.

As with all the stuff beforde like the PC i think it will be again a mess to find the stuff I need here in europe without horrible shipping-prices from another continent.

Found here two filters, I am not sure they fit everything we want for a good SAB, maybe someone with more knowledge could take a look and tell me if its good or not.

The smaller one

The longer one

Maybe you could also tell if they fit or why not?
If they are both fine, I think about getting the second one to get more workingspace.
I know, the blower needs to have way more power then also - Are there any other points against the second ones shape?(Not technical specs, just about filters with this shape/size)

Any other recommendations?

After finding a good HEPA I'll try to get a good blower in the right dimension and then I'll need to make a plan how it should look and "work" from the surfaces.



Thanks in advance!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft]
    #27108748 - 12/26/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Just when I thought shifffhart was outrageous the gemrans had to do the tripple F again


Stofffilter.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27108897 - 12/26/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Just when I thought shifffhart was outrageous the gemrans had to do the tripple F again


Stofffilter.





Don't worry bodh, its not like we have just Schifffahrt, we use them all day in hundreds of words - I know, germans are language-sadists - Sometimes horrible language, but for semi-autists like me awesome, because there is always(!!!) a word for something and if not you are able to make just your own word.

Try out crazy stuff like Stofffetzen, Fußballlehrer, Fußballliga or Metalllegierung.

Lets be honest - Triple-consonants are banned out of the german language over the last years.
It's correct to write it with triple-letter for the next years, but in the dictionary etc. its written just with two letters, you'll learn it in school just with two letters.


Okay btt, I'll spam my own thread.:grin:


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OfflineWizardSJ
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27109096 - 12/26/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Theyre huge! but look like a good price. I got a 22' by 22' and it ran me £300

If i built one again i would go wider. 60cm tall is plenty of room. Wider means you have more working space.


H13, H14 etc just refers to the level of filtration. H13 filter 99.95% and is suitable for mycology in conjunction with good sterile technique.


Edited by WizardSJ (12/26/20 02:45 PM)


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: WizardSJ]
    #27109589 - 12/26/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

WizardSJ said:
Theyre huge! but look like a good price. I got a 22' by 22' and it ran me £300

If i built one again i would go wider. 60cm tall is plenty of room. Wider means you have more working space.


H13, H14 etc just refers to the level of filtration. H13 filter 99.95% and is suitable for mycology in conjunction with good sterile technique.




Yeah thats why I think about going for the second one, thats more then enough space.
The first one is also fine I think but If I'll use the money for a LFH then just a bit more for a taller size, its not that much more.

Read also H13 is fine but also somewhere it should be better H14 - Not sure about this.

Could need more opinions about this.
I read somewhere we want H13 or better, what means 99.95%.

Not sure about this now, I found on Wikipedia there is a difference between European Filter-classification and the US-classifications, what means here in Europe I need to watch out for an ULPA U15 filter, because HEPA ends up with H14(=99,975%) - correct?
What means its again fucking impossible to get here in europe for a decent price without importing it from the US..Third world europe.


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Edited by Schemenhaft (12/26/20 07:51 PM)


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OfflineWizardSJ
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27109989 - 12/27/20 02:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah H14 is around 99.997% effective filtration for all particles over 0.2-0.3 microns (multilple sites differ micron claims).

By my understanding and experience the difference isnt a deal breaker for mycology if you work with good technique. The same way you work in a still air box and keep things open for as little time nesseccary you would do the same infront of your flow hood.

Dont contaminate the air stream between the filter and your media and minimise the time it is exposed and you should be fine.

Would use the money you save to invest in other equipment that supports sterile work; bacticinerator/ butane torch,impulse sealer, prefilter for the hepa filter.

Do you understand how to pick the correct fan for the filter? must have enough cfm for the perticular hepa and pre filter with 100-200 left to spare. Go with a squirrell fan also.

Im in europe and i used "jasun envirocare plc" as the supplier for a fan and prefilter.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: WizardSJ]
    #27110187 - 12/27/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

WizardSJ said:
Yeah H14 is around 99.997% effective filtration for all particles over 0.2-0.3 microns (multilple sites differ micron claims).

By my understanding and experience the difference isnt a deal breaker for mycology if you work with good technique. The same way you work in a still air box and keep things open for as little time nesseccary you would do the same infront of your flow hood.

Dont contaminate the air stream between the filter and your media and minimise the time it is exposed and you should be fine.

Would use the money you save to invest in other equipment that supports sterile work; bacticinerator/ butane torch,impulse sealer, prefilter for the hepa filter.

Do you understand how to pick the correct fan for the filter? must have enough cfm for the perticular hepa and pre filter with 100-200 left to spare. Go with a squirrell fan also.

Im in europe and i used "jasun envirocare plc" as the supplier for a fan and prefilter.






Found a top-deal this night at ebay,575x575x78mm H13 Hepa filter for 50€, new but without original packaging.
Think for this price its fine and the size should be fine for the next months.

Now I stuck at the point to get a decent blower.
We have 575x575mm, so in ft it is 1,89x1,89=3,5721ft^2 x 100ft^3/min = 357,21ft^3/min

These are all specs I have


So the next steps are unsure - My Static-pressure is the 135 Pa(=0,542517") + 0.2" for the basic-filter
= 0,742517" SP

So I need a filter with  357,21 ft^3/min and a Static Pressure of 0,742517 - minimum.
It depends on the price now but I'll go maybe for a way better one to make it possible to just buy a bigger filter later and dont need to buy also another blower.

Can't find any blowers at Jasun-website, it seem to be not that easy to find a blower.


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Edited by Schemenhaft (12/27/20 06:22 AM)


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OfflineWizardSJ
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft]
    #27110793 - 12/27/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Go with a squirell fan. Some people call then furnace blowers. Go a bit stronger than you might expect then you can always tone down the cfm with an extra pre filter on the intake.

i got mine 2nd hand on ebay


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: WizardSJ]
    #27110816 - 12/27/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I can't find a decent translation to german for squirrel-blower haha.

Seems to be called something like radial-blower (radialgebläse) but its not showing that many results, especially not for 2nd hand stuff on ebay.
Prefere to get one 2nd hand- But for now I'll need to recalculate the needed specs for my blower with european units, hope I do everything right there:grin:


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OfflineWizardSJ
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27110873 - 12/27/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Try centrifugal fan
Anything designed for back pressure


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft]
    #27110938 - 12/27/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

So, calculated now in european units, but I am unsure because the values are that low.

I need a blower that moves 56,17349 m^3/h at a static pressure of 1,884622cm (H2O)(or 184,817782 Pa).
In common US-units its 33,06247ft^3/min air at a static pressure of 0,74197716535" (H2O).


Could this be right?
Is the filter I bought bullshit because of just 135 Pa static pressure?

Or is this all fine?
Just a bit paranoid because in the TEK examplte the for a 2"x 2" HEPA filter for which he needs 400ft^3/min.


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 2
    #27111089 - 12/27/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Some things I hope I can clear up for you.

The pictured filter is not a true HEPA, at 99.95%. HEPA filters are minimum 99.97% efficient, and filters for laminar flow hoods are typically 99.99%. Less efficient filters usually have lower static pressures. It’s easier for air to flow through them because the filter fibers are less densely packed together.

For that filter pictured, it is a nominal 2 foot x 2 foot filter. For laminar flow~100fpm would need 400cfm.

400cfm=680m^3/hr

Use fan law #2 to find static pressure @ needed airflow

(680/535)^2 x 135=218

So you want a fan that provides at least 680m^3/hr @ 218Pa for the filter specs pictured above. That is not taking into consideration any pre filter you may run.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27111150 - 12/27/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RoscoeReturns said:
Some things I hope I can clear up for you.

The pictured filter is not a true HEPA, at 99.95%. HEPA filters are minimum 99.97% efficient, and filters for laminar flow hoods are typically 99.99%. Less efficient filters usually have lower static pressures. It’s easier for air to flow through them because the filter fibers are less densely packed together.

For that filter pictured, it is a nominal 2 foot x 2 foot filter. For laminar flow~100fpm would need 400cfm.

400cfm=680m^3/hr

Use fan law #2 to find static pressure @ needed airflow

(680/535)^2 x 135=218

So you want a fan that provides at least 680m^3/hr @ 218Pa for the filter specs pictured above. That is not taking into consideration any pre filter you may run.





Maybe there is a huge difference between the US and Europe, but here in Europe Hepa-filters start with H13(99.95%) and ends with H14(99.975%), next level with 99,9995 or more is an ULPA-Filter with classification U15-U17.

Seems like the difference between the United States and Europe fucked me up hard.
Here in Europe Hepa-filters start with H13(99.95%) and ends with H14(99.975%), next level with 99,9995 or more is an ULPA-Filter with classification U15-U17.
In the United States there is just HEPA (?) and it starts with our european H14 (99.97%) - Is this right for the United States?
Damnit Europe!:mad2:

Should use this filter for the Flowhood or is it just a contamination-blower then?
I mean of course I can use it, but will this Flowhood be just useless shit or is it still fine, just not as good as it could be?

Can't send this filter back, was an ebay offer without return.

So I think if possible I'll use this 99.95% filter for the beginning and switch later to an ULPA-Filter(HEPA is in europe maximum 99.975%, to get something with 99.99% or better its all ULPA).
So If buy a filter now with more power for my future-Ulpa-Filter, is there anything I should pay attention for if I wanna use the blower at first for the 99.95% filter?
Something to regulate the power of the blower?

__________________________________________________


Here something for my understanding:
I read also some tutorials in german for a laminar flow hood - They wrote explicit that we should take a H13(99.95%) HEPA filter, it will work without problems.
H14 was also mentioned, they said its ofc better but not that much in relation to the increasing price - H14 would be absolutely fine.

Tried to figure out more about ULPA-Filters, but here a shroomery I found just negative points against them.
But after finding out HEPA US and HEPA Europe is different, it seems like ULPA US is not ULPA in Europe.
So I need to go for an ULPA-Filter(to reach 99.99% to build a optimal Flowhood, right?


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27111215 - 12/27/20 07:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

A European designation H14 is what would be used in laminar flow hoods. US does have ULPA filters efficient at least 99.999%. US and Euro designations are unfortunately different and can cause confusion.

I think you have to look at things a bit differently than the scientific community. If you want a true laminar flow hood, that virtually guarantees zero contamination when used appropriately with good sterile technique, you need a minimum H14 filter, airspeed 100fpm -/+ 20%, leak tested after installation, constructed of non shedding materials. That’s how the standards are written, and that’s what I would need in my labs or clean rooms. Do you need that to drastically improve your success rate in a hobby mycology lab? No. I do very well with good technique and a SAB. Lots of people have good success with less than ideal filter/hoods. 99.95% filtration is still a lot cleaner than room air. Are you guaranteed success, no, but you don’t have to worry about ruining expensive product or potentially harming someone with contaminated product. You can just see contaminated jars or bags, and toss them. That filter might be good enough for you, for the cost, and availability.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27111254 - 12/27/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RoscoeReturns said:
A European designation H14 is what would be used in laminar flow hoods. US does have ULPA filters efficient at least 99.999%. US and Euro designations are unfortunately different and can cause confusion.

I think you have to look at things a bit differently than the scientific community. If you want a true laminar flow hood, that virtually guarantees zero contamination when used appropriately with good sterile technique, you need a minimum H14 filter, airspeed 100fpm -/+ 20%, leak tested after installation, constructed of non shedding materials. That’s how the standards are written, and that’s what I would need in my labs or clean rooms. Do you need that to drastically improve your success rate in a hobby mycology lab? No. I do very well with good technique and a SAB. Lots of people have good success with less than ideal filter/hoods. 99.95% filtration is still a lot cleaner than room air. Are you guaranteed success, no, but you don’t have to worry about ruining expensive product or potentially harming someone with contaminated product. You can just see contaminated jars or bags, and toss them. That filter might be good enough for you, for the cost, and availability.





Thank you Roscoe, good to hear this!
Currently I work in the SAB without problems - Till now I have very good results, over the last 3-4 weeks just one Agar-plate with contamination which should have been clean, rest ist looking good or the contamination was unavoidable.

Anyways, tomorrow I'll want to find a good blower and if the price is fine for me I'll get a bigger one to switch later to a H14 filter and maybe also bigger size in a few months.

Hope its fine for you, If I ask a bit more.
How would you describe the difference between 99,95% and 99,975% (H13/H14 EU) in relation to the work results?
I mean how big is the difference in fail-by-filter fails, if everything else is as good as possible.
Like with H13 you fail 3/10 and with h14 you fail 0-1/10 - Hope you know what I mean.

Just wanna know to make the decision for the blower - If the difference is not that much, I'll go now for a cheap one fitting to the filter, learn to work with the LFH and then decide If I like it or not and then save money for a bigger H14 LFH.

Thanks in advance!


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27111841 - 12/28/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I can’t answer, I’ve never used or tested equipment with less than 99.99% filters. In my industry they are not allowed.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27202328 - 02/12/21 06:43 PM (3 years, 4 days ago)

Hey guys,

I need to pick up this topic again.
Took a break from building my LFH because I seems to be not that easy to find the right blower here in europe.

Today someone told me to take a look at Trotec and I have found this one
https://de.trotec.com/produkte-services/maschinen-highperformance/ventilation/turboluefter-tfv-s-serie/tfv-30-s/

Could someone tell me If this blower would fit to the Filter I have posted in this thread?
I know its way more power then I need, but maybe in future I'll go for a bigger sized Filter and then I can re-us this blower.
This one is blowing in three levels ( 1350m3/h -> 1880m3/h -> 2250m3/h) with a static pressure of 525 at max.


Or is this one too powerful? Can't find a graph of this filter, there is nothing in their documents - Is it possible to still find out what we need to know or I better go find anotherone?


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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft] * 1
    #27202471 - 02/12/21 07:45 PM (3 years, 4 days ago)

Are inline duct fans more available to you? they work fantastic for flowhood purposes despite the fact people typically always use the dayton HVAC type blowers. Depending on the size of your hood you can also use multiples (my hood uses 2). Also they are happy being run on $10 speed controllers which means you can dial the flow perfectly if need be. They can also be relatively quiet if internally housed.


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Smartattack]
    #27203439 - 02/13/21 11:08 AM (3 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Smartattack said:
Are inline duct fans more available to you? they work fantastic for flowhood purposes despite the fact people typically always use the dayton HVAC type blowers. Depending on the size of your hood you can also use multiples (my hood uses 2). Also they are happy being run on $10 speed controllers which means you can dial the flow perfectly if need be. They can also be relatively quiet if internally housed.




Haven't looked that intense now but it seems like they are also not that "easy"-available for private-person in an online-shop like everything else with enough documentation and prices - Seems like 95% of time I need to send a request for prices and then I still don't have the necessary graphs to check if they fit with my filtre.

Noone here from europe, with a reliable source for blowers or a recommendation to a fitting blower?
I'm a bit scared to buy bullshit and waste hundreds of euros in the end - Thats why I am currently a bit scared to differ from the LFH-TEKs even because english in combination with imperial system is not my common stuff so it feels very error-prone.



EDIT: Could someone recommend a blower in the US/Canada who is fitting to my filter and they have an online-shop who is shipping to europe?
It seems to be impossible to get fucking blowers here in europe without connections - Just like 10 on ebay/amazon and the rest of the google-results are not what I am looking for or without prices/graphs for the Pa


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Edited by Schemenhaft (02/13/21 11:34 AM)


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OfflineSchemenhaft
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Re: Planing my Laminar Flow Hood [Re: Schemenhaft]
    #27207267 - 02/15/21 11:32 AM (3 years, 1 day ago)

Any recommendations?


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