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corrosionsteady
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Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics
#27109924 - 12/27/20 12:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm just wondering if this would be plausible, i have used a tek involving methanol to pull the active alkaloids from dry fruit bodies. If you had 3 different specimens and you took an equal sample from each, performed the extraction and weighed the resulting material, could you then choose the heaviest as the most potent?, so you can continue growing with those genetics Essentially to increase potency over time, eating them and trying to pick the strongest ones just doesn't seem like a plausible way to isolate the most potent phenotype in a group. Any thoughts? I know theres 2 compounds that are responsible for the psychoactive effects and i'm not sure that a basic methanol pull would yield both of them or just one, and if it is just one are they linked in the biosynthesis so you could go by the weight of one to give a close estimate to the concentration of the other? Idk just a thought
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: corrosionsteady]
#27109950 - 12/27/20 01:36 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread was moved from Mushroom Cultivation.
Reason: Lets try here.
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corrosionsteady
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#27110095 - 12/27/20 04:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oops apologies, thank you sir
i just wanted to add and it probably goes without saying that you'd need a milligram scale to weigh the extraction accurately(.001) which i've got, i tracked down the old tek to a write up by fanaticus titled, the crystal of the gods http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm my chemistry is subpar to say the least so maybe someone who understands it a bit better can help out
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greenladel
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: corrosionsteady]
#27110104 - 12/27/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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this is what i plan to do in the long term. i have some experience with a couple of different types of extractions (not enough experience to help, sorry), so i am hoping by the time i am comfortable mushroom cultivation that i can do this. i will be keeping an eye here for ideas
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corrosionsteady
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: greenladel]
#27110127 - 12/27/20 05:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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If i remember correctly Methanol was the most efficient in providing a white crystalline, but make sure it's all evap'd off before you consume it, some people prefer ever clear because of this but grain alcohol yields a more brownish final product, and 99% iso just wasn't very effective, yields were low, again this is anecdotal from shit memory of things i did a decade ago.
For it to work you'd only run extractions for selection on clone grows, if you grow from spores there will be a large variation within the tub itself and the results will mean nothing. Roughly the idea is you take 3 different clones, grow them out in 3 different tubs, take 10g dry from each tub and run the extraction, upon completing evap weigh them out, select the highest yielding tub, grab a print, grow the print out, take another 3 different clones and so on.
again this is all in my imagination and there are so many reasons why the application of this method would fail, from biosynthesis details, to insoluble actives, break down or change of chemical structure after drying....
This can actually be solved pretty easily, but it would have to be by someone who has, very obviously a highly potent variety, and a very weak variety, i hold back saying you could test it by comparing the extraction of cubensis to cyanescens cause the alkaloid make up will be substantially different between different species, But it would become either very obvious, or not answer anything at all if someone had say PE grown from a clone and MS B+ extracted equal weights of dry fruit bodies, and shouted the results from the mountain tops
Edited by corrosionsteady (12/27/20 05:09 AM)
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mycot
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#27110139 - 12/27/20 05:07 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm sure they've been previous threads here, on selection for high potency. I think one major problem is that potency varies so much from one fruit-body to the next and one flush to the next, even with the same genetics, that you couldn't do much comparison. Even very small differences in environmental factors spell difference in potency. Hard to control all environmental factors. Multispore on agar and directly measuring the mycellium ? Idk, even here I have doubts, though who knows. I'd focus more on an extraction that focuses on psilocybin rather than both compounds for purposes of measurement. It's the most favored (more stable) and major compound anyway.
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corrosionsteady
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: mycot]
#27110153 - 12/27/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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the compounds desired for the purpose of measurement in this situation is psilocybin, more specifically, the ones responsible for the fungus's groovy effects.
When you clone anything you're xerox copying its genetic make up, and within that make up are genes responsible for the production of psilocybin or the "magic", although there will be tiny variations due to environmental differences during growth, they're pretty much indistinguishable, it's why we have monotubs of mushrooms that all look alike potency is a trait just like winkled stems, unopened caps, just because we experience it in a special way doesn't make it any different then any other characteristic dictated by it's genetic make up.
no one would run alcohol extractions if it didn't pull out what makes you trip, so that is most certainly what one would need to measure in order to selectively grow to expand upon that specific characteristic. People are still suggesting you test potency by eating the mushroom and choosing the strongest this has to be the most unscientific, least accurate way to try and target the best genetic make-up, itd be like telling orange farmer to only grow the oranges that were the sweetest. measure that shit, be accurate.
Also you're not testing one clone from each tub, you're testing an equal weight, which should compensate any small variation in the individual clones potency. If you have any sources to back up your claims that aren't "i'm pretty sure" or you're "doubts" here's the direct quote from wikipedia "The effects of psilocybin mushrooms come from psilocybin and psilocin. When psilocybin is ingested, it is broken down by the liver in a process called dephosphorylation. The resulting compound is called psilocin, which is responsible for the psychedelic effects." So Psilocybin is infact as you put it the "weaker" of the two, because it's just a prodrug for psilocin and due to the incredibly quick onset of alcohol extractions, one can surmise that it would be psilocin that's being extracted as opposed to it's predecessor.
Edited by corrosionsteady (12/27/20 05:36 AM)
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corrosionsteady
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: corrosionsteady]
#27110175 - 12/27/20 05:44 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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also how would the concentration of actives in mycelium on agar mean anything in regards to what we're looking for? unless.....you're not eating mycellium are you man? that's not the part you're supposed to be eating.
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mycot
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: corrosionsteady] 1
#27110223 - 12/27/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I shouldn't have bothered. You seem to already know everything. Bye
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Vinci
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: mycot]
#27110636 - 12/27/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Haha yeah, way to answer your thread. Yeah, I prefer 95% grain alcohol extractions. It's not clear if the dried material is pure psilocybin or even close, I have always reduced it without fully drying it just because I'm not sure if the final product will be trash. I'd take a shot of each alcohol extraction reduction and compare trips. Measure in a syringe for accuracy
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greenladel
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: Vinci] 1
#27111598 - 12/28/20 03:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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perhaps the best way to run the experiment would be to run multiple tubs of the same clones, then use the whole harvest from each tub in the extraction, giving an average per tub. testing the whole tub would account (at least roughly) for the problem with smaller fruits being more potent and the multiple tubs would allow you to account for different growing conditions. that would quickly become a huge project using a lot of space and money though, which i will not have available for a long time.
off topic: i thought mycelium was proven to contain no alkaloids? i could be wrong about that, i cant remember where i saw that, i will try to find it. i think it was a US government body doing experiments to decide if fruitless mycelium should be legal or not, im sure the result was that mycelium was legal. i will try to dig out some links
edit: cant seem to find it now hopefully somebody with more knowledge on this can step in. im sure it was a link i followed from a spore vendor. the vendor shared it because the data mentioned them by name. i cant remember what that name was though
Edited by greenladel (12/28/20 03:26 AM)
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joze
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: greenladel]
#27111733 - 12/28/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
greenladel said: off topic: i thought mycelium was proven to contain no alkaloids? i could be wrong about that, i cant remember where i saw that, i will try to find it. i think it was a US government body doing experiments to decide if fruitless mycelium should be legal or not, im sure the result was that mycelium was legal. i will try to dig out some links
edit: cant seem to find it now hopefully somebody with more knowledge on this can step in. im sure it was a link i followed from a spore vendor. the vendor shared it because the data mentioned them by name. i cant remember what that name was though
I'm fairly sure I remember hearing Paul Stamets mention cubensis mycelium being non-active until it's exposed to sunlight. If I remember correctly, I heard that in a lecture Stamets had posted on Youtube.
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joze
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: joze]
#27111838 - 12/28/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
joze said:
Quote:
greenladel said: off topic: i thought mycelium was proven to contain no alkaloids? i could be wrong about that, i cant remember where i saw that, i will try to find it. i think it was a US government body doing experiments to decide if fruitless mycelium should be legal or not, im sure the result was that mycelium was legal. i will try to dig out some links
edit: cant seem to find it now hopefully somebody with more knowledge on this can step in. im sure it was a link i followed from a spore vendor. the vendor shared it because the data mentioned them by name. i cant remember what that name was though
I'm fairly sure I remember hearing Paul Stamets mention cubensis mycelium being non-active until it's exposed to sunlight. If I remember correctly, I heard that in a lecture Stamets had posted on Youtube.
I was very wrong. It seems like exposure to ultraviolet light actually decreases potency. See Riahi, Rafati & Mohommadi (2009). DOI: 10.1615/IntJMedMushr.v11.i4.80.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: joze]
#27118663 - 12/31/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ive done a mycelium-extraction using cranberry juice and citric acid and it was definitely active!
Is there a direct correlation between mycelium potency and fruit potency?
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greenladel
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#27118887 - 12/31/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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interesting. i am new to mycology and i am surprised to see that there is still so much to be learned. seems like there is a place for students in the future! i hope that one day soon i can do some of my own experiments and help the community come to a conclusion on this, it definitely seems like key information that we should all know
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Vinci
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: greenladel] 1
#27120098 - 01/01/21 10:30 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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The fact that the rhizos on a substrate turn blue when they dry out exposes the presence of psilocybin/psilocin as they're oxidization makes the blue. With that said, don't eat substrate fuckin goofballs. Of course you can gauge potency based o the speed and darkness of the bluing where you cut them at the base of the stipe. This isn't as precise but you can tell between two cultures which is more potent for the most part. Hold two fresh stipes of each culture together and cut them both with one snip, watch the blueing.
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the man
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: Vinci]
#27138868 - 01/10/21 01:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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if blueing is related to potency extract should or high potential blue up and not white.. some potent PEs dont blue.. agree tho potent sp tend to blue more and faster.. stones barely blue some not at all..
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nektar61
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: the man]
#27139146 - 01/10/21 07:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the man said: if blueing is related to potency extract should or high potential blue up and not white.. some potent PEs dont blue.. agree tho potent sp tend to blue more and faster.. stones barely blue some not at all..
I made extract with dried powdered shrooms. Post about it on my journal.
One pass of ethanol and one pass of water, both mixed, filtered twice, then evaporated to a beautiful purple sludge.
Was very purple and very active.
Next day was brown and active. In a month it was brown and not very active.
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Edited by nektar61 (01/10/21 07:58 AM)
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the man
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: nektar61]
#27139703 - 01/10/21 12:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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right, i am talking about alkaloid with tiny amount of carbs fairly refined extracts that are offwhite creamish colored. mushroom tea/extract certainly can be, and often is blue ish.
I suppose what i was suggesting, as others more experienced and knowledgable have said, that blueing may not be caused by what we think its caused by. another example is liberty caps, potent in both alkaloids, but little to no blueing.. antioxidants preventing blueing "goodies" or perhaps other reaction...
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Nichrome
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Re: Extraction of alkaloids to select High potency genetics (moved) [Re: the man] 2
#27143687 - 01/12/21 11:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've seen cube mycelium on plates that bruises very dark blue when cut... Just like any good pheno hunt I'm sure you can find a variety that produces mycelium that will rock your socks off.
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