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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Enlil]
    #27108878 - 12/26/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I would think so


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Enlil]
    #27108893 - 12/26/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Not when the police say they're explosion-related cookoffs.



So it's a coincidence that ammo was there?  Bullshit. Ammo is used in firearms.  The presence of ammo makes the presence of a firearm more likely.




Sure, but the presence of both is also made more likely by this being an RV that until recently, served as some rural backwoods outhouse. Working with a few stereotypes. The bomber is likely not the RV owner. It is entirely possible that there was ammo in the RV that the bomber did not know about, which subsequently cooked off. Considering the ubiquitous nature of guns and ammo in the US, especially the rural US, I don't think this is outside of the realm of reasonable possibility.

Hell, there's probably a reasonable chance that there is a gun in some floorboards in my house that I don;t know about, that the previous owner forgot about.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27108895 - 12/26/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
What possible reason would someone have to bomb an AT&T building?




AT&T subsidiary owns CNN. Assuming my bad ANFO guess is correct, that means a mixture of fertilizer and fuel oil. Fertilizer is readily available to farmers in large quantities. Hell, 90s shake and bake meth manuals all talk about stealing ammonia/ammonium nitrate from farmers. The we add the politics of the rural/city divide, which points to a disgruntled Qcumber, bringing it full circle to anti-CNN.

Quote:

koods said:
They’re saying human tissue, not even body parts so if there was a person they were essentially inside the bomb. Even a few feet away would leave chunks and fingers and such.




Cop knocked down and suffered ruptured eardrums from a distance away from the blast. This implies ~40psi overpressure wave from the blast at the moment it hit the cop in question. Cop in question (apparently) did not suffer any sort of shrapnel damage, which would be expected for even a 5psi overpressure wave passing though anything other than open air.

Again, assuming that the cop knocked down was smart enough to retreat to the end of the block, the distance between the blast and the end of the block is roughly 200 feet. Assuming cop was standing outside cover (preventing shrapnel), this is consistent with ~200lbs equivalent of ground burst TNT, which is ~500lb of badly mixed ANFO, due to relative blast force between the two explosive mixtures (basically an AN bomb).

Explosion damage follows a square root law in reference to stand-off distance. A body that was several feet from the epicenter, such as, across an RV, would leave very little evidence of a person. This would be compounded by the incendiary effect of badly mixed ANFO, as instead of exploding, the fuel oil would spread and burn, causing the incendiary effect that was seen in video footage, while simultaneously assisting in the destruction of human remains.

Plus, Ammonium nitrate and fuel oil are pretty readily available in mass quantities for legitimate purposes, which is why ANFO is such a popular homecooked explosive.




Explosions are three dimensional, so their energy dissipates by the inverse cube of the distance. The amount of energy over a surface is the inverse of the square of the distance.

So someone one foot away receives 25 times more force than someone 5 feet away. That’s a huge difference. Someone five feet away will get nowhere near as pulverized as someone one foot away


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27108898 - 12/26/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

All of that is possible, but remember Occam's razor?  What's the simpler explanation?  Ammo was there because the guy who built the bomb brought a gun with him?  Or Ammo just happens to be there because some previous owner had it there?


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27108902 - 12/26/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Very hard to tell without color images, but Ammonium nitrate has a very distinctive orange color to the smoke cloud. Fuel oil added to the mix will react with the orange nitrogen oxides, but it would have to be a perfect mix that reacts perfectly to not have a colored cloud.

This is what ammonium nitrate looks like:



Also, ammonium nitrate is very hard to detonate in smaller amounts. This was decent explosion but it wasn’t particularly large.

I’m guessing dynamite or acetone peroxide


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/26/20 12:46 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108923 - 12/26/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The latter is quite unstable, no?
I feel like I just read about some incel that blew his hands off with the stuff


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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27108933 - 12/26/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Acetone peroxide definitely sounds easier to manufacture just hearing its name. Lol


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27108935 - 12/26/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes it is, but stable enough to be used in bombings if handled properly.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #27108936 - 12/26/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
Acetone peroxide definitely sounds easier to manufacture just hearing its name. Lol




Yup it’s just acetone reacted with hydrogen peroxide with a mineral acid catalyst


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108941 - 12/26/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Isn't dynamite TNT?
Seems easy for anyone who can get the acid


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108943 - 12/26/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

To be fair, nitroglycerin is also very easy to make but also very unstable


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27108951 - 12/26/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Isn't dynamite TNT?
Seems easy for anyone who can get the acid




Nah dynamite is nitroglycerin absorbed into clay or some other physical dilutant

TNT is a multi step reaction, not as easy as nitroglycerin but uses the same chemicals to nitrate the compound.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108959 - 12/26/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I see. I thought you had to keep nitroglycerin wetted for some reason


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108963 - 12/26/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Explosions are three dimensional, so their energy dissipates by the inverse cube of the distance. The amount of energy over a surface is the inverse of the square of the distance.

So someone one foot away receives 25 times more force than someone 5 feet away. That’s a huge difference. Someone five feet away will get nowhere near as pulverized as someone one foot away




Not quite. There are dozens of accepted models of explosions, which consider the location of the explosion and reflecting effects of nearby obstacles. A purely ideal airburst follows a cube law. A groundburst at STP is much closer to the square law. This is simplified, because I don't wanna math.

Quote:

koods said:
Yes it is, but stable enough to be used in bombings if handled properly.




No it's not. TATP is fucking scary. Easy to make? Sure. Easy to transport, even by hand...?

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I feel like I just read about some incel that blew his hands off with the stuff




Yeah. I wouldn't fuck with that shit, and I did a graduate thesis on explosives in the context of homebrew terrorism. This is up there with lead picrate on the list of things I never want to fuck with ever again. Not to mention that concentrated (>30ish%) peroxides cause organic matter to spontaneously combust.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Isn't dynamite TNT?
Seems easy for anyone who can get the acid




No. The synthesis of TNT requires heating a mixture of TNT to >85C, using fuming nitric acid. That's the shit that's so pure it's giving off vapors that corrode away rubber, metal, gas masks, flesh, etc. Also, concentrated nitric acid is a potent oxidizer, and will spontaneously catch fire when combined with organic compounds. Dripping fuming nitric on a piece of paper results in a burning piece of paper. WWII chemists working in military explosives factories had death wishes and balls of steel big enough to stop freight trains.

Quote:

koods said:
To be fair, nitroglycerin is also very easy to make but also very unstable




Same problem as TNT, except the glycerin has oxygen molecules on it as well, making the synthesis even scarier.


Edited by Kryptos (12/26/20 01:30 PM)


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27108973 - 12/26/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dripping fuming nitric on a piece of paper results in a burning piece of paper.




No

Dripping fuming nitric acid on your skin will leave a nice yellow spot that turns orange if you treat it will ammonia. It’s a cool trick.

Fully concentrated nitric acid is a solution in water. It is not capable of starting a fire due to the water content. Fuming nitric acid is just nitric acid with excess nitrogen dioxide. Mixing this with sulfuric acid to remove water from the reaction also does not cause a fire. It replaces the hydroxy radicals from cellulose in the case of paper, creating nitrocellulose, which is a very stable explosive also known as gunpowder or guncotton.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/26/20 01:32 PM)


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108977 - 12/26/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Dripping fuming nitric on a piece of paper results in a burning piece of paper.




No

Dripping fuming nitric acid on your skin will leave a nice yellow spot that turns orange if you treat it will ammonia. It’s a cool trick.




Not in any significant quantity. Also, that yellow to brown stain usually comes with 1st or second degree equivalent chemical burn, depending on how quickly it's neutralized by adding ammonia.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27108984 - 12/26/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I would assume that anyone buying or making the acid already has glassware and ppe


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27108993 - 12/26/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Again, we're talking about a question of scale. Based on my assumption that the cop that lost his hearing was 200 feet away, that is ~200lb TNT. Using the FEMA blast tables. So, roughly 150lb of fuming nitric acid goes into the production. That's a whole lot of glassware and several drums of nitric acid, once again, heated to 85C.

Reaction temperature must be carefully controlled to maintain the nitration rate, while simultaneously preventing runaway nitration, which is highly exothermic and will explode.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27108994 - 12/26/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I’ve made it many times. It is nasty. Nitrogen oxide fumes are nasty as fuck, but it’s a very simple reaction. It’s actually difficult to make non fuming nitric acid since you always end up producing a lot of nitrogen dioxide in the process.


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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
    #27108998 - 12/26/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Making fuming Nitric acid is simple enough. Making even gram amounts of TNT is a cheek clencher.


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