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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
#27109072 - 12/26/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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bodhisatta said:
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Kryptos said:
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koods said:
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Dripping fuming nitric on a piece of paper results in a burning piece of paper.
No
Dripping fuming nitric acid on your skin will leave a nice yellow spot that turns orange if you treat it will ammonia. It’s a cool trick.
Not in any significant quantity. Also, that yellow to brown stain usually comes with 1st or second degree equivalent chemical burn, depending on how quickly it's neutralized by adding ammonia.
You can slowly walk to the sink. It's not like movies bro
I'd like to see someone walk to the sink after spilling gallons of the stuff on themselves.
But, for a much more relevant question, I'd like to see someone sit over a 55 gallon drum of TNT, and holding the temperature steady to prevent a runaway exotherm. Four times.
Then I'd like to see them try to dispose of thousands of gallons of pink water.
But first, I'd like to see them acquire a 55 gallon drum of toluene and three 55 gallon drums of fuming nitric to begin with.
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koods said: When ammonium nitrate decomposes, you end up with excess nitrogen oxides. The fuel oil is not necessary, it just gets a little extra bang out of the explosion because you are extracting the energy from those nitrogen oxides. Most of the energy in ammonium nitrate and all of its power to detonate supersonically is contained within the ammonium nitrate itself. The excess fuel doesn’t really add much to the explosive power but adds a lot to the amount of fire and heat you would get. You could use any fuel really. Sugar. Wax. Charcoal.
It actually adds quite a bit of bang. ANFO has about 70% of the explosive power of TNT. AN has about 32%.
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koods said: The only acid exposure on skin I’ve had that you feel almost instantly is concentrated sulfuric acid and that’s because of the heat generated. It usually takes a good 20-30 seconds to even feel something like concentrated hydrochloric acid dropped on the skin unless it gets into a hair follicle.
Good point. I forgot to mention, the third nitration step of TNT uses a mixture of nitric and oleum.
First and second nitration strongly deactivates the benzene ring.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
#27109076 - 12/26/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why are you going on about gallons of the stuff now? No ones dropped gallons on themselves
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109082 - 12/26/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Kryptos said: Again, we're talking about a question of scale. Based on my assumption that the cop that lost his hearing was 200 feet away, that is ~200lb TNT. Using the FEMA blast tables.
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ballsalsa
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109084 - 12/26/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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He's saying you would need a lot to make the requisite TNT for the nashville blast.
Nitroglycerin seems easy as fuck if all you have to do to make it transportable is soak it up with some clay. Kitty litter is cheap.
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27109090 - 12/26/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Once you have made the nitroglycerin, soaking it into kitty litter and transporting it shouldn't be too hard.
Making it, and not a crater, on the other hand...
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#27109092 - 12/26/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Regardless he thought it would make paper spontaneously combust. Granted you need a lot to make the bomb that doesn't mean anything about spilling it on yourself. You can dunk your hand in a beaker of fuming nitric acid and if you washed it off within a minute or two you would be fine
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109098 - 12/26/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Also fuel oil is diesel. My home runs off fuel oil or diesel. One just has road tax on it and a different color dye. That's the kind you can buy in america as a civilian maybe you can get tar like fuel oil if you own a panama class ship
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109099 - 12/26/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Regardless he thought it would make paper spontaneously combust. Granted you need a lot to make the bomb that doesn't mean anything about spilling it on yourself. You can dunk your hand in a beaker of fuming nitric acid and if you washed it off within a minute or two you would be fine
Yes, and if I took a bath in benzene I'd be fine. For a few years, at least.
And it does make paper spontaneously combust. That was a demo I did as a TA.
I guess I should specify white fuming, the strong stuff. Add some fuming sulfuric, which you need for the third nitration to make TNT...things get unpleasant quickly.
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ballsalsa
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109102 - 12/26/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I once spilled battery acid on myself pulling a battery from my truck. All over my chest and arms. It probably took that long to even start tingling but in another minute I was glad to be inside washing the shit off. The shirt was a total loss
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
#27109103 - 12/26/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The nitration of cellulose demonstration is usually done with paper and ive never seen it start on fire. Maybe it's possible but that defeats the purpose of making nitrocellulose for the demonstration
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27109104 - 12/26/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: I once spilled battery acid on myself pulling a battery from my truck. All over my chest and arms. It probably took that long to even start tingling but in another minute I was glad to be inside washing the shit off. The shirt was a total loss
Battery acid is sulfuric and way faster acting and nastier on skin than nitric.
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27109106 - 12/26/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Battery acid is nowhere near as concentrated as oleum. Nor near as oxidizing and oleum/fuming nitric mix.
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koods
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109107 - 12/26/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The stuff you absolutely don’t want to get on yourself is hydrofluoric acid. Not because it will dissolve your body, but because it introduces fluoride ions into your body which scavenge calcium ions and leads to an electrolyte imbalance that results in cardiac arrest.
What’s crazy is you can buy some at your local grocery store
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ballsalsa
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109111 - 12/26/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It burned and left a red rash.
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109114 - 12/26/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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bodhisatta said: The nitration of cellulose demonstration is usually done with paper and ive never seen it start on fire. Maybe it's possible but that defeats the purpose of making nitrocellulose for the demonstration
I wasn't making nitrocellulose. I was explicitly doing a safety warning, as one of our labs used the mix.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
#27109116 - 12/26/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You were making nitrocellulose though. Because that's what happens when you nitrate cellulose (paper). Maybe not your intentions but it's part of the reaction
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ballsalsa
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: koods]
#27109118 - 12/26/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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They put a warning on the label. Their asses are covered
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koods
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
#27109124 - 12/26/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Kryptos said: Battery acid is nowhere near as concentrated as oleum. Nor near as oxidizing and oleum/fuming nitric mix.
Fuming nitric acid and fuming sulfuric acid is the perfect nitrating agent. It won’t set paper on fire. It will nitrate that paper. The more concentrated the solutions the less damage there is to the cellulose backbone.
Fuming sulfuric acid itself may ignite paper. Is that what you’re thinking of?
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Kryptos
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: bodhisatta]
#27109128 - 12/26/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Battery acid is nowhere near as concentrated as oleum. Nor near as oxidizing and oleum/fuming nitric mix.
Fuming nitric acid and fuming sulfuric acid is the perfect nitrating agent. It won’t set paper on fire. It will nitrate that paper. The more concentrated the solutions the less damage there is to the cellulose backbone.
Fuming sulfuric acid itself may ignite paper. Is that what you’re thinking of?
A mix of both will first nitrate, then ignite. Using white fuming nitric and oleum, that happens almost immediately.
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bodhisatta said: You were making nitrocellulose though. Because that's what happens when you nitrate cellulose (paper). Maybe not your intentions but it's part of the reaction
Yes, it is part of the reaction.
Either way, someone who can safely make than on a hundred pound scale, is likely smart enough to not blow up a city street. Or, more accurately, is smart enough to, ya know, not do it. It's a scary enough reaction at gram scales.
Though, I'll admit, I've only made TNT 2-3 times in my life. That's all I needed for my degree and I didn't want to lose a finger.
By comparison, you can make ANFO with a shovel and be pretty safe, assuming you wear a respirator.
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koods
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Re: So...who bombed Nashville? [Re: Kryptos]
#27109137 - 12/26/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I’m not sure it’s possible to accidentally detonate TNT during nitration. TNT burns vigorously but does not explode when set on fire. Even nitroglycerin will burn. TNT will only detonate if the molecule is physically distorted by a supersonic shockwave.
There’s another possible explosive that is stable and may be easy for some people to obtain. Sodium azide.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (12/26/20 02:43 PM)
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