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OfflineSirshovel
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Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? * 1
    #27106622 - 12/24/20 10:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Short answer: "there is nothing new under the sun".

Long answer: Inspiration is part of the art process and this entails borrowing from previous experience or other areas or landscapes, etc to funnel into the final process of the piece. It can be seen as original but the process is one taking pieces from what they have seen before and mashing them together into a "new" piece.

So is this really creative or mere duplication, or copying? Dragons from fantasy are inspired by lizards, same with other mythical creatures in D&D games. These aren't really original, just mashing parts together. I'd even extend this to alleged non conceptual art.

But if this really is the case does it matter? In art I can see the case for no creativity or originality, but in music it's different I feel. The parts do little on their own and while some music is derivative there are other songs I find are wholly original in composition. Or is this mere illusion?

I wonder if this is similar to the argument in math as to whether it is created or discovered? What do people here think? Does creativity need to involve novelty in order to "count" or is that not the point?


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OfflineTheMagicConch
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27106660 - 12/24/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Creativity is just a form of an idea. The way I see it is if you're inspired to paint something or write a song and you pull from a bunch of different references in your head to put together something new, the new thing is a new idea; something that hasn't been thought of and created before that very moment. Sure, in creating that thing other things had to be created first in order to be inspirational to the person who thought of it. But the thing in and of itself is creative in the sense that literally it was created and has not been created before.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27106674 - 12/24/20 11:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes.


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OfflineSirshovel
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: TheMagicConch] * 1
    #27107136 - 12/25/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

But in a sense it has been made before. A pegasus for example is just a horse with bird wings, mermaids are fish with human anatomy. There is nothing new in the final process, it's more of a collage than synthesis. In a sense it has been thought of before. Even sculptures are just photos of people more or less. So how can it be creative when you're duplicating parts?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27107187 - 12/25/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

nothing is ever just "a few related words on the subject" least of all any honest expression or art form.

however I will not minimize the value of reductive thought and speech.

so carry on, even if you do oversimplify. that may also be an honest expression of your experience which is 100% your own.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27107209 - 12/25/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What is creative? Create something that relates to nothing else? No, creative means to use something pre-existing to create a new whole. Otherwise the only creation was the universe.
In regards to art, there would be almost no art if every separate idea or expression could only be done once...


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27107276 - 12/25/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

art always gets better the more you make it it just takes a hundred hours or so for it to become very good and very advanced
but it good to make it get better in the beginning but after a hundred hours or so it is very good and very advanced and from there it gets better but already there it is a joy and fun to make and a joy to look at and can be really dazzling (in quaity) and that is a good thing


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27107279 - 12/25/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

it's probably true for everything music building houses practice makes perfect it's such an interesting idea topic that the more you do something the better you get


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27107574 - 12/25/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Some say those who can't do, teach
and those who can, just do.

It probably could also be said,
with some accuracy:
those who can't do, (something) BS about it,
and those who can do (something), just do it.

In the case of art and its critics,
this may be particularly obvious.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27107744 - 12/25/20 06:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

makes sense but I can't remember it very easily


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OfflineSirshovel
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27107829 - 12/25/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
What is creative? Create something that relates to nothing else? No, creative means to use something pre-existing to create a new whole. Otherwise the only creation was the universe.
In regards to art, there would be almost no art if every separate idea or expression could only be done once...




But what I am referring to is that if it is already pre-existing then does that really make the "whole" new in any sort of meaningful way?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27107860 - 12/25/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It's a question of novelty. Do new, novel forms come into being over time? I would say yes, certainly. Does this apply to the history of art? I think any art historian in the world would say yes. It seems you are arguing that new works of art are necessarily a re-hash of previous forms. Do you have evidence for this?

To draw an analogy with the natural world, elephants never existed until elephants evolved. Novelty is a real and, I may add, salient phenomenon in nature.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27107929 - 12/25/20 09:07 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

There could be an endless supply of novelty but that doesn't mean the created is every fully novel.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27107936 - 12/25/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Those who resent the limitations of the world, like the author of the book of Ecclesiastes with its sour attitude, criticize those whose creations they can never approach.
While those with innocent happy eyes see worlds of wonder everywhere.

William Blake & Einstein understood.

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

― Albert Einstein

And when it comes to doing, the easily available, quotes of Picasso shed a lot of light.

But basically the question works like a Rorschach test, and tells more about the answerer, than 'reality'. That those who pose such questions miss this, may say something more, about their issues with creativity, than they realize.

I won't even bother to comment on the (unconscious?) assumption that creation was a one time event, and that similarly creativity is something that stops and starts, among other such unexamined assumptions.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Sirshovel]
    #27108162 - 12/26/20 01:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yes. Art (any form of) is created as a unique expression that feels meaningful. That's the novelty.
I don't understand what the problem here is for you, or if you are just being very literal in a way.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27108234 - 12/26/20 04:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

nothing is truly new to the cynical attitude that nothing is truly new.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27108293 - 12/26/20 06:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

art becomes really great and you become really good at it after a few years


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: Rahz]
    #27108391 - 12/26/20 08:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There could be an endless supply of novelty but that doesn't mean the created is every fully novel.





That's true, but OP seems to be contending that the created is fully non-novel.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27108436 - 12/26/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Those who resent the limitations of the world, like the author of the book of Ecclesiastes with its sour attitude, criticize those whose creations they can never approach.
While those with innocent happy eyes see worlds of wonder everywhere.

William Blake & Einstein understood.

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

― Albert Einstein

And when it comes to doing, the easily available, quotes of Picasso shed a lot of light.

But basically the question works like a Rorschach test, and tells more about the answerer, than 'reality'. That those who pose such questions miss this, may say something more, about their issues with creativity, than they realize.

I won't even bother to comment on the (unconscious?) assumption that creation was a one time event, and that similarly creativity is something that stops and starts, among other such unexamined assumptions.





Very well said, I agree completely. I take the opposite view of the OP -- I see creativity as a very deep phenomenon, a sort of "fire" in the fundamental levels of the subconscious and of nature herself. The unfolding of this can be seen not only in art, literature or invention, but in the very unfolding of the natural world. I see the creative everywhere, personally.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Can we call art creative if nothing new is truly made? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27108557 - 12/26/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
There could be an endless supply of novelty but that doesn't mean the created is every fully novel.





That's true, but OP seems to be contending that the created is fully non-novel.




Yea, I got that. There's a quality in painting for instance that could be called style. A person could be influenced by the style of others and yet develop their own style, derivative but still unique. This would be typical. A viewer examining the art may not appreciate the novelty or even acknowledge it. I'm sure most people have seen a style they don't like (I don't care for a lot of abstract work that is primarily hard edges) and don't care to appreciate the novelty. And for that matter, just because something is novel doesn't mean it will be soul moving for anyone or everyone.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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