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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 51 minutes, 21 seconds
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: OnlyHuman]
#27110783 - 12/27/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OnlyHuman said:
Everyone says that thought is destructive, but what do you do about it?
I don't think that thinking thoughts is necessarily destructive. What would thoughts destroy? I might go along with the idea that thoughts have the potential to cause suffering, depending on perspective we choose to take of them. But we usually take our thoughts quite seriously - of nearly unquestionable authority and truth. The circus of the mind often cultivates voracious bombastic mayhem.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#27110981 - 12/27/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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people pay admission to that circus and are just not aware they are doing it! having paid, they will stick around for a bit of the action. then the aroma of hot dogs will overwhelm the clowns and any elephants in the room.
but thought is amazing - pervasive - and good company.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27111306 - 12/27/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: ...just not aware they are doing it!...
indeed that's the crux of the matter
when seeing
people who love each other arguing with raised defensive voices
totally caught up in unnecessary suffering
and these are educated people
one sees just how important elusive, invisible, untouchable, always silent, awareness is ...
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27111523 - 12/28/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what's all this about beta states and a subconscious that can be controlled. There is a tipsy theory with 2 undefined cornerstones.
I'm honestly surprised you're not already aware.
me when ready.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27111728 - 12/28/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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it is important in this thread, maybe, but PM would take this offline, no? is that what you want?
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#27112092 - 12/28/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
OnlyHuman said:
Everyone says that thought is destructive, but what do you do about it?
I don't think that thinking thoughts is necessarily destructive. What would thoughts destroy? I might go along with the idea that thoughts have the potential to cause suffering, depending on perspective we choose to take of them. But we usually take our thoughts quite seriously - of nearly unquestionable authority and truth. The circus of the mind often cultivates voracious bombastic mayhem.
the argument about or against thought in spiritual traditions is
1) most thoughts are about ourselves, and therefore strengthen the self illusion. We are fooled by their superficial content, but the net effect is to strengthen the "separate, permanent, unchanging, self", illusion. (That is the: "I am 'Bill', this is what I believe, this is what I will fight for, this what I want, this is who I was yesterday, this is what I will be tomorrow, and so on ... and on...)
2) Just as we focus on objects (generally) and not on the space around them, just so we identify with thoughts, and ignore the awareness without which they could not be perceived. And as it is awareness that is more "fundamental", we are deluded by distorted views.
Edited by laughingdog (12/28/20 11:32 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: laughingdog]
#27112430 - 12/28/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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nicely put, and is awareness other than thought or separate from mind itself?
i.e. in a venn diagram

just threw that together for you,
Thought is the collection of mind forms, including shapes, sounds, progressions, cycles, etc. - anything that can form in mind is thought including all that are shown:
when there is awareness it is equal to any thought as far as it occupies mind (space) but it is the color of naked mind, rather than undifferentiated associative buzz.
when there is meditation it is equal to any thought as far as it occupies mind (space) and it is built of the associative buzz YOKED to breath and or some other body sense, or mental contents.
when there is internal dialog (what gurus tend to call thoughts)it is equal to any thought as far as it occupies mind (space) and it is built of the associative buzz that trails itself like slime mold only much faster. Very handy stuff, until it gets stuck in a loop.
the body and sensation link the mind to the world
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27113337 - 12/29/20 12:34 AM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is important in this thread, maybe, but PM would take this offline, no? is that what you want?
It's not for this thread, because several times I've gone into depth and people have either misinterpreted what I'm saying, saw what they wanted to see, or completely derailed and devolved the quality of information into a dorm room circle jerk.
Then, when cornered on the contradiction present, people waffle and move goal posts, insisting on talking about low-hanging fruit topics, in which there are already thousands of threads, with thousands of answers, going in circles.
I've been helping people directly via for the last month and giving them the exact information, resources, and coaching they need as an individual. None of that happens whenever I make a thread of a long post, Shroomery doesn't seem to like deep rational discussion that precludes 90% of what they assume they understand.
Take it as you will, I've learned when to display my pearls, and most of the time people insist on behaving like swine.
Yes, that's a conscious judgement tempered with over a decade of professional psychological experience with how people perceive, misperceive, and then apply information.
me if you want to go into detail.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: laughingdog]
#27113430 - 12/29/20 03:23 AM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
OnlyHuman said:
Everyone says that thought is destructive, but what do you do about it?
I don't think that thinking thoughts is necessarily destructive. What would thoughts destroy? I might go along with the idea that thoughts have the potential to cause suffering, depending on perspective we choose to take of them. But we usually take our thoughts quite seriously - of nearly unquestionable authority and truth. The circus of the mind often cultivates voracious bombastic mayhem.
the argument about or against thought in spiritual traditions is
1) most thoughts are about ourselves, and therefore strengthen the self illusion. We are fooled by their superficial content, but the net effect is to strengthen the "separate, permanent, unchanging, self", illusion. (That is the: "I am 'Bill', this is what I believe, this is what I will fight for, this what I want, this is who I was yesterday, this is what I will be tomorrow, and so on ... and on...)
2) Just as we focus on objects (generally) and not on the space around them, just so we identify with thoughts, and ignore the awareness without which they could not be perceived. And as it is awareness that is more "fundamental", we are deluded by distorted views.

-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27114012 - 12/29/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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I did PM you but there was nobody at the principal's office, I guess it's a lax time of year.
no matter I edited my venn diagram

the undifferentiated gray area of THOUGHT or mental objects includes any form in mind. I show that the BRAIN contains THOUGHT, and is contained by the body and the world. That representation of containment is challenged by solipsism and theories of simulated universe, but only slightly.
I do not depict soul, or spirit, or a separate mind from BRAIN. That does not mean they do not exist but the BRAIN can represent those as well, even though it is not immortal.
I show that MEMORY resides in BRAIN as an imprint but also as a resource for memory activity (in THOUGHT). I show that SENSATION begins in the world and body and has life and activity in MIND as Thought objects. I also depict PERCEPTION as an associative interaction thought object combining sensation to related memory. Meditation is illustrated as a specific THOUGHT form or pattern of mental activity. It is illustrated touching the part of mind that is connected [or Yoked] to sensation (usually breathing). Awareness is mental content of a type that can pertain to any other mental form yet it has no particular form. It can be easily overcome by a tsunami of other thought forms. Small green thought forms are indicated as mental objects that arise and pass without clear meaning, they are artifacts - easily ignored, produced by the interaction of other mental objects. Obscure feelings and intimations can fall into this category, and one might, in the face of many small green thought forms consider the existence of a subconscious mind, but this is not consistently reliable. I like to pay attention to partials, feelings, and shadowy thought objects because they relate to the self and to the situation and ignoring them can be perilous. It's great when the source thought forms from which the partials evolve are understood, like learning to taste the inside of one's mouth or the smell of one's nose.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27114708 - 12/29/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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I like this quote on the subject
"thinking about awareness, is not awareness; but awareness of thinking, is awareness"
Which seems to show that all those looking to explain consciousness, (and to find its origin, miss an important point), no matter how high their so called IQ. As any explanation will of course lie within 'the field of thought'; and as the quote hints, awareness is the context for thought and not thought itself. In the same way that space is the context, that makes it possible for objects to exist, but is not itself an object, in spite of being a noun. This point is both simple and subtle and vital, IMO.
Of course it is an annoying truth for the ego, as it wishes to own and grasp things, whether it be actual objects, beliefs, or opinions; and awareness being the ultimate context is devoid of any tangible characteristics, (like color, mass, smell, shape, size, etc., and of course any knowledge or opinions about good & bad, what-so-ever).
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: laughingdog]
#27114722 - 12/29/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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if awareness were constant I would not have to practice reacquainting.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27114730 - 12/29/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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there is that consideration, and there is also the question of who is the "I" in: "I would not have to practice reacquainting"
And if there are are those who drop self, then what is it, that is aware, in these cases?
Multiple questions abound...
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27115243 - 12/29/20 11:56 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I did PM you but there was nobody at the principal's office, I guess it's a lax time of year.
no matter I edited my venn diagram

the undifferentiated gray area of THOUGHT or mental objects includes any form in mind. I show that the BRAIN contains THOUGHT, and is contained by the body and the world. That representation of containment is challenged by solipsism and theories of simulated universe, but only slightly.
I do not depict soul, or spirit, or a separate mind from BRAIN. That does not mean they do not exist but the BRAIN can represent those as well, even though it is not immortal.
I show that MEMORY resides in BRAIN as an imprint but also as a resource for memory activity (in THOUGHT). I show that SENSATION begins in the world and body and has life and activity in MIND as Thought objects. I also depict PERCEPTION as an associative interaction thought object combining sensation to related memory. Meditation is illustrated as a specific THOUGHT form or pattern of mental activity. It is illustrated touching the part of mind that is connected [or Yoked] to sensation (usually breathing). Awareness is mental content of a type that can pertain to any other mental form yet it has no particular form. It can be easily overcome by a tsunami of other thought forms. Small green thought forms are indicated as mental objects that arise and pass without clear meaning, they are artifacts - easily ignored, produced by the interaction of other mental objects. Obscure feelings and intimations can fall into this category, and one might, in the face of many small green thought forms consider the existence of a subconscious mind, but this is not consistently reliable. I like to pay attention to partials, feelings, and shadowy thought objects because they relate to the self and to the situation and ignoring them can be perilous. It's great when the source thought forms from which the partials evolve are understood, like learning to taste the inside of one's mouth or the smell of one's nose.
I'm east coast, homie; I'm on here between 1:00AM and 8:00AM EST, every single day.
I PMed you back.
I disagree with your diagram we'll save it for the PM.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: if awareness were constant I would not have to practice reacquainting.
You're making that deduction/assumption from Beta/Waking-Level Consciousness, which is barely the tip of your total consciousness iceberg.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27115755 - 12/30/20 08:53 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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it's better to share than to go to a private room, I have nothing special that I need too pull out.
how is beta waking consciousness even a thing. Beta waves from a non-sleeping person just means more mental activity than while sleeping.
It is not an actual wave form - it is irregular and dense such as what you would expect with a lot of interference from many fading mental objects impinging on each other in the cerebral cortex.
when you say "You're making that deduction/assumption from Beta/Waking-Level Consciousness, which is barely the tip of your total consciousness iceberg." you are attempting to discredit my approach using hi-faluting sounding mumbo jumbo.
it really puts a chill into my consciousness iceberg IYKWIM.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27117403 - 12/31/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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The point of private discussion is to prevent the person I'm talking to from waffling and bandwaggoning a broken view with others.
You appear to be flexing the choice for keeping it a public display from a place of insecurity of being cornered 1-on-1 about your stances, despite openly claiming otherwise. I see this a lot, as I said I'm a professional. Not a judgement, just a pattern. Confidence is silent. Insecurities are loud.
You, and several others here, have a pattern of appearing defensive when you don't like or agree with what someone is saying, while displaying an enormous amount of close-mindedness not usually found in your other posts. For a forum full of people that have supposedly "experienced ego death" and "transcended duality" via their psych usage, there sure are a lot of people anchored in limited, materialistic assumptions about the nature of reality, and counter-productively and stubbornly so.
It's almost like these topics touch a nerve for you because they bring into question the very foundations of your personal paradigm (most of you are dogmatic materialists/positivists pretending to be otherwise, then get pissed when cornered on this, because the rational "science" you think you're leaning on in defense against these "bullshit topics" is easily shown to be more irrational/contradictory/impossible, and actually less empirical in their assumptions - yes, assumptions (but the math, bro!) - of how reality works).
That was part of the reason for the PM discussion, so we don't have to wade through other people's posts to find our replies to one another.
I will gladly answer all of those questions, in depth right here, when I get a free moment to dive deep and do so. Please forgive me if this doesn't line up with your schedule, as I said in our PM, I'm on here between 2:00 AM - 8:00 AM EST any given day.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/31/20 01:18 AM)
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27117445 - 12/31/20 01:58 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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I know what you mean "never got that far" (robbie williams) with philosophy
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27117609 - 12/31/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: The point of private discussion is to prevent the person I'm talking to from waffling and bandwaggoning a broken view with others.
You appear to be flexing the choice for keeping it a public display from a place of insecurity of being cornered 1-on-1 about your stances, despite openly claiming otherwise. I see this a lot, as I said I'm a professional. Not a judgement, just a pattern. Confidence is silent. Insecurities are loud.
You, and several others here, have a pattern of appearing defensive when you don't like or agree with what someone is saying, while displaying an enormous amount of close-mindedness not usually found in your other posts. For a forum full of people that have supposedly "experienced ego death" and "transcended duality" via their psych usage, there sure are a lot of people anchored in limited, materialistic assumptions about the nature of reality, and counter-productively and stubbornly so.
It's almost like these topics touch a nerve for you because they bring into question the very foundations of your personal paradigm (most of you are dogmatic materialists/positivists pretending to be otherwise, then get pissed when cornered on this, because the rational "science" you think you're leaning on in defense against these "bullshit topics" is easily shown to be more irrational/contradictory/impossible, and actually less empirical in their assumptions - yes, assumptions (but the math, bro!) - of how reality works).
That was part of the reason for the PM discussion, so we don't have to wade through other people's posts to find our replies to one another.
I will gladly answer all of those questions, in depth right here, when I get a free moment to dive deep and do so. Please forgive me if this doesn't line up with your schedule, as I said in our PM, I'm on here between 2:00 AM - 8:00 AM EST any given day.
As mentioned in your PM, you are a psychotherapist, so, I forgive you for trying to diagnose me, along with others who do not share your troubling view of mathematics - that would be a logical approach to handling the insecurity which supplants facts with legendary fantasy. (i.e. if it is legendary it should be at least as good as factual).
But no, imagination is not a valid substitute for factuality even if you feel anxious in the face of the unknown, admitting that it is unknown is a huge step in the right direction AFAIK.
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