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OnlyHuman
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Registered: 09/25/19
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: laughingdog]
#27106054 - 12/24/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm sorry that you think I'm being condescending, I think that says more about you than it does about me.
Comparing Eckhart Tolle to U.G. is a big mistake. Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Papaji, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Rupert Spira, Laozi, Buddha, Jesus, and all of the other guys all have a lot to say without a doubt, but the mistake that they made was either trying to capture their wisdom if we can call it that within a framework and then trying to pass it on or attempting to give us some kind of meditation that could help us reach the place that they, as U.G. puts it in his case, stumbled into. U.G. clearly states that none of the knowledge is of any use to us, that we have been trying to reach a goal through thought, and that it will never work. He's clear that thought knows every trick in the book, and there is NO WAY OUT. He says that his stumbling into the natural state was acasual, and that there is nothing that he can do to free anybody from the stranglehold of thought.
Honestly, don't you think it is absurd that we create these goals, these ideals, and strive after them? What do we know? How can we possibly have any confidence in our ideals? After all, do that really have any basis? Why try to be anything other than what you are? Why try to be moral? Why try to be better. Fate brought you here, and there was nothing that you could do to change the outcome, because after all you aren't separate from the whole of nature. So why try to change anything at all?
It's not that thought is in any way bad in of itself, it's that memory has hijacked the whole of our experience.
As I've heard many people put it, U.G. is the final destination for anybody who has gone down the rabbit whole of oneness, pure-awareness and all the rest, for all those who found themselves listening to people like the teachers I mentioned above. If you don't see that yet, that's fine too.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: OnlyHuman]
#27106060 - 12/24/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OnlyHuman said: He had no philosophy, boiling his words down to a philosophy is to miss the point entirely. We're animals, we don't need philosophy, we need food, water, and shelter. We live in memory and die in memory and never touch life because through philosophizing and trying to reach a made-up goal through thought we are adding momentum to ego/thought. Anything else that he has said is of no use to us.
Did you just figure this out? Ever hear of Zen? Jeeze
And now you present us with how you compare teachers, thank you so much master.
Definitely suggest you stay away from Zen centers, and stick to internet forums.
Edited by laughingdog (12/24/20 03:26 PM)
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OnlyHuman
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Yellow Pants]
#27106065 - 12/24/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Of course that's a part of it, that's what they all talk about. Knowing that doesn't really help release us from the stranglehold of thought, though. If that's what you've been trying to do, if you've already listened and read into the whole business and you've been trying to be choicelessly aware or aware of awareness or whatever, then I suggest that you dig deep into this guys words until you realize that you don't have anything that you need to hear.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: OnlyHuman]
#27106067 - 12/24/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OnlyHuman said: He had no philosophy, boiling his words down to a philosophy is to miss the point entirely. We're animals, we don't need philosophy, we need food, water, and shelter. We live in memory and die in memory and never touch life because through philosophizing and trying to reach a made-up goal through thought we are adding momentum to ego/thought. Anything else that he has said is of no use to us.
You just did boil his words down to a philosophy in a far more simplistic manner than I did.
I don't exactly think he had a philosophy either. He was a Genius and truth speaker who was able to pluck truth out of the ether in the same way as all the other dudes who acheived moksha, nirvana, heaven, call it what you will of course his manner is different because that's what genius is. It's art as much as philosophy. The more someone is able to quiet his mental chatter the more he is able to speak in this way, it comes out in a unique way for everybody who has ever done it.
Quite easy to tell that you haven't read that much about UG and have just picked out a few choice bits from passages and are repeating them like mantras.
I've had enough talking about something as ineffable as the phenomena of UG for now so I shall keep shut.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: OnlyHuman]
#27106960 - 12/25/20 06:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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if you have not cultivated the kind of thinking that embraces the here and now in a relaxed and sustainable way for 20-40 minutes then you have not meditated enough to judge the value of that practice.
this is directly realizable separate from any philosophy.
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falcon



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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: OnlyHuman]
#27106975 - 12/25/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OnlyHuman said: Post deleted by OnlyHuman
Reason for deletion: Pointless
+1 Merry Christmas!
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: falcon] 1
#27107366 - 12/25/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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for psychedelic and meditation what do you recommend? dosage time frequency dose I'm thinking 1/4 blotter and meditation the whole trip something told me 1/3 blotter and 2 days then one day off and I would be among the 1000 doing the best I would have to meditate the whole day I would want to meditate as much as possible so dose at 8 am or pretty much when I wake up would suit me good I like the idea of having fun like a regular acid trip and also meditating much also I am strict about it I would want as much meditation as possible so I would dose when waking up meditate pee when I have to have some food sit again pee sit and go to bed like after 6-10 hours
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: Ferdinando]
#27107368 - 12/25/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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for some reason I'm not even afraid of acid that way because the meditation is that good as I know it is I would do 1000 hours a year if I could I would probably dose two times a week if I had some microdose is an option too if we have to be more easy on the mind
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: Ferdinando]
#27107465 - 12/25/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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that is an extremely enthusiastic approach.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
#27107562 - 12/25/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thoughts Are Not the Enemy: An Innovative Approach to Meditation Practice Paperback – October 14, 2014 by Jason Siff (Author)
"A revolutionary new approach to meditation: a mindfulness of thinking that accepts and investigates the thoughts that arise as you meditate--from the author of Unlearning Meditation.
In most forms of meditation, the meditator is instructed to let go of thoughts as they arise. As a result, thinking is often taken, unnecessarily, to be something misguided or evil. This approach is misguided, says Jason Siff. In fact, if we allow thoughts to arise and become mindful of the thoughts themselves, we gain tranquillity and insight just as in other methods without having to reject our natural mental processes. And by observing the thoughts themselves with mindfulness and curiosity, we can learn a good deal about ourselves in the process."
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#27107677 - 12/25/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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UG never suggested that people should repress or block the natural movement of thought. If you think that you aren't listening or haven't read enough. He was just pointing to the fact that many of our thoughts are chained together and form a story that is neither natural or healthy. Amonst those around him he shot down those unhealthy thoughts that keep this framework of ego together, he described it as like clay pigeon shooting.
He was against meditation very definitely in all but the most advanced students, I believe he promoted a form of ascetism and sadhana as a method to better living. Although this is more to be seen in the way he lived than in anything he said. Trying to fit him into your orthodox buddhist mold of mindfulness and meditation as progression is a mistake. He was not against philosophising or debate and thinking in this manner (as you can see he practiced it all the time with those around him) but suggested that it was only a tool for sharpening the mind to break free from the structure itself, pointing out that there was no end to it in and of itself. He liked to point out that everyone who had ever become enlightened had dropped this striving anyway, else they wouldn't have been able to come to such a state of rest. Further suggesting that it might be possible to simply drop that striving from the start, allowing the mind and body to sort itself out naturally. This is a departure from the zen tradition that suggests that striving is necessary at the outset but should eventually drop away (see the famous picture of the zen circle of will).
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (12/25/20 05:33 PM)
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OnlyHuman
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: Grapefruit]
#27107778 - 12/25/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The only problem I have with what you've said here is that our way of thinking is unnatural. I've been thinking, how can anything be unnatural? It's impossible. After all, without any real free will, the dominoes are falling exactly how they're meant to, or were destined to. So I've been thinking, is societies state of absurdity and suffering inevitable for any life forms capable of organizing themselves carefully with forward thinking to ensure their survival? Is this where thought inevitably leads all who have the refined ability? After all, one could say that God is just another trick up thought's sleeve to ensure it's survival. So we evolve, all the while trying to procreate and survive, until we happen to stumble upon agriculture at which point we develop societies to ensure further survival, and society inevitably turns into this, where we are fully aware that we will end, that everything will be gone, that nothing can satisfy us, that we're just fucked, clinging onto hope, until what happens to U.G. happens to us, or we just fucking sit here hoping that somehow it'll get better in absolutely any way.
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laughingdog
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: Grapefruit]
#27107963 - 12/25/20 09:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: UG never suggested that people should repress or block the natural movement of thought. If you think that you aren't listening or haven't read enough. He was just pointing to the fact that many of our thoughts are chained together and form a story that is neither natural or healthy. Amonst those around him he shot down those unhealthy thoughts that keep this framework of ego together, he described it as like clay pigeon shooting.
He was against meditation very definitely in all but the most advanced students, I believe he promoted a form of ascetism and sadhana as a method to better living. Although this is more to be seen in the way he lived than in anything he said. Trying to fit him into your orthodox buddhist mold of mindfulness and meditation as progression is a mistake. He was not against philosophising or debate and thinking in this manner (as you can see he practiced it all the time with those around him) but suggested that it was only a tool for sharpening the mind to break free from the structure itself, pointing out that there was no end to it in and of itself. He liked to point out that everyone who had ever become enlightened had dropped this striving anyway, else they wouldn't have been able to come to such a state of rest. Further suggesting that it might be possible to simply drop that striving from the start, allowing the mind and body to sort itself out naturally. This is a departure from the zen tradition that suggests that striving is necessary at the outset but should eventually drop away (see the famous picture of the zen circle of will).
Well seems you are no longer feeling aimless, and have found a subject you care about. Wonderful !
However who can resist a little irony? - note that the aimlessness did Not result in enlightenment (unless i missed something) - so this business of "just letting go" isn't quite what its cracked up to be either.
Even those who experience something wonderful from tripping, seem to find it fades, 99.99...% of the time. Guru or no guru, understanding or no understanding, enlightened states simply don't behave as folks want them to. And that's part of the whole deal.
The self that wants to be enlightened, is destroyed by enlightenment. ( If it pops back up it was only toast.)
But, one only listens to gurus and teachings because there is a self that is ... wanting. If one doesn't see the absurdity of this, something is missing...
Hence much of the actual focus in daily life in spiritual canters, is on maintaining 'mindfulness', which is what will continue in the life of anyone, who drops self. In practice this is how the knot is cut.
And this is how the nervous system is retrained, moment by moment, after a lifetime of misuse. More and more "explanations" simply cannot do this work, which does require some effort. IMO.
Once we understand this we realize most of the time all that Gurus are doing is a little hand holding, when the students are struggling.
The work of continually bringing the mind and attention back to the present, must of course be done by the self (as long as there is one).
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#27108204 - 12/26/20 03:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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thank you it's like it would make me learn to program or paint or paint more or something like that and do less substance it's like say I have my garden half in order it would push it to 70% or some of the benefit is of such nature putting garden in order and treating others in a better way such things I don't know all the benefits what fields could it make one excercise more but my results with it is very that it makes action better garden better
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#27108207 - 12/26/20 03:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know why you're so obsessed with mindfulness as the only solution to becoming awake and aware. I guess you are not familiar with any other religious methods than Buddhism. Trance states for instance are another way of dropping the self. Anyway UG did constantly point out exactly what you have said about the futility of listening to him.
My situation is something entirely to itself and your presumptions are way off base.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: yoosername]
#27109938 - 12/27/20 01:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yoosername said: The content of consciousness is consciousness!
The observer is the observed!
Conformity is disorder!
The description is not the described!
"We started out by asking if I can look at the whole movement of life as a unitary process. The killing, the refugees, the war in the Middle East, the Catholics, the Protestants, the scientists, the artists, the businessmen, private life, public life, my family, your family - there is endless division. This division has brought about such disorder in the world and in myself. Can I look at all this as a marvellous single movement?
I can't, that is a fact. I can't, because I am fragmented in myself. I am conditioned in myself. So my concern then is, not to find out how to live a unitary life, but to see if the fragmentation can come to an end. And that fragmentation only comes to an end when I realize that all my consciousness is made up of these fragments. My consciousness is the fragmentation. And when I say, "There must be integration, it must be brought together", it is still part of that trick I am playing upon myself.
So I realize that. I realize it as a truth, like fire burns, you can't deceive me, it is a fact, and I am left with it. And I have to find out how it operates in my daily life - not guess, play, theorize. Because I have seen the truth of it, that truth is going to act. If I don't see it and pretend I have seen it, then I am going to make a hideous mess of my life." -Krishnamurti
"A song IS a song!" -Terence McKenna on the fun nature of tautology
Also, you can only do so much work from the waking/Beta level of consciousness. You have to go directly to your subconscious in order to create deep seated changes and beneficial shifts and synchronicities in your immediate environment.
The Beta/waking state is too weak to create the usually desired shifts on its own.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27110207 - 12/27/20 06:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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what's all this about beta states and a subconscious that can be controlled. There is a tipsy theory with 2 undefined cornerstones.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: redgreenvines]
#27110414 - 12/27/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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can we not make more junk? this should be part of schools how to not create more junk and garbage maybe how to clean it up the earth is almost full of junk can we not make more?
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! [Re: Ferdinando]
#27110726 - 12/27/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I seem to drag 2 lbs of junk to the recycling and garbage chute each day. that's a ton of crap every 3 years just being myself.
only 1/3 of that is streamed back into compost or recycled stuff.
long way to go
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Snap out of it! Thought is your enemy! *DELETED* [Re: Grapefruit]
#27110756 - 12/27/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I don't know why you're so obsessed with mindfulness as the only solution to becoming awake and aware. I guess you are not familiar with any other religious methods than Buddhism. Trance states for instance are another way of dropping the self. Anyway UG did constantly point out exactly what you have said about the futility of listening to him.
My situation is something entirely to itself and your presumptions are way off base.
Didn't know I was obsessed ... if so probably because I am surrounded by folks that are addicted to various forms of distraction, which is a bit sad.
..."the futility of listening to him" yet you all post about him worshipfully...perhaps you all are "obsessed"?
. The reason for the popularity of what is called "mindfulness" in the US these days is because, it is not exotic like trance states. It occurs naturally in yoga classes, Tai chi classes, and hopefully in all the operating rooms, in all the hospitals world wide, etc. It has been used in hospitals, with patients, and in prisons with inmates, with documented positive results, unlike trance states.
. So the progression to realizing the value of 'mindfulness' in its own right, is a relatively small easy step, that doesn't necessitate all the adolescent evaluations in this thread that sound like: my guru is better than your guru, with UG being given top Alpha dog status.
. An advantage of 'mindfulness' practice, is that it is often used in a secular context, which avoids, all the baloney folks get confused by as soon as so called spiritual concerns are raised, prior to both personally experiencing such "things" and being able to put them into regular practice, without which such concerns are all meaningless.
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