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question_for_joo
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Registered: 04/30/03
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Baraka
#2710261 - 05/21/04 07:46 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this post but I just wanted to talk about the film Baraka for a second. When it starts, they show a red face monkey bathing in a hotspring. As it went on and you see all these different people from different cultures around the world. I started just mentally comparing each of their faces to the face of the monkey and the dots started connecting for me. It's one thing to understand how something works technically, scientifically, but it's something else to appreciate that thing. Evolution is a really amazing process. We are now almost like holy animals. We have almost all the awareness we need to get our shit together for good. I have faith that soon we will. I'd be interested in what other people have taken away from this movie.
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JacquesCousteau
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I have not seen it.. I have heard a lot of good things about it as a "tripping movie".. but the next time I visit another perception will be at the gathering in Ohio, where I will not have access to a TV at any point... so maybe on the comedown of the trip after THAT I will get to check it out...
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TimeTraveler
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I saw bit and peices of the movie at a friend's house, and from what I remember it was a very powerful and moving peice of art. Wasnt there a part where they showed chicks going down a conveyor belt at a chicken processing plant? I remember the movie showing both good/evil aspects of humanity. I should rent it soon.
-------------------- The air is cut with cyanide.
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CleverName
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i wouldnt call it a tripping movie. its a piece that portays the human organsim and our effects on the environment around us. it is a visual masterpiece... unfortunately, most of my friends werent into it, at all and thought it was boring. i loved it, i found it thought provoking, i watched it alone later. it was a while ago when i saw it, but it shows how humans have a tendancy to take more than they need, greed and those things. but it also shows many of the good things about humanity. im not sure what you meant by, " We are now almost like holy animals. We have almost all the awareness we need to get our shit together for good." could you please explain a bit more
-------------------- if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it? this is the purpose
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Oddish
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Yeah, I remember segments such as Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge party pretty much bringing genocide to mass amounts of people in Cambodia. Also, the chickens being branded on their beaks was very disturbing. On the other hand, when that tribe was chanting and moving their bodies in a rhythmic wave-like motion, that was awesome!
I want to see Koyaanisqatsi next. Actually, I want to see pretty much everything on this web site. http://www.spiritofbaraka.com/copies.aspx
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MarkostheGnostic
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Man...the little chicks having their beaks burned off so they won't peck at each other in the Hell of their agri-farming existence is the ONLY thing that I remember from Baraka. That's why we only but free-range animals for food: a somewhat free existence before their sacrificial death for us.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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question_for_joo
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Clevername: I dunno really how to describe the feeling I got this time watching Baraka but it's jut like I understood better how we got from monkey to human and even though the physical difference is relatively minor, the awareness difference is almost infinite. So, even though we don't look like angels or them aliens with the big heads and long oval eyes, we're almost on their level intelectually I think and that's pretty coo.
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Jellric
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To me, those snow monkeys do look very human. I think its because their faces are without hair and the rest of their body is covered with hair, making them look like humans with fur coats on! When you look at them as they relax in their hot springs (read monkey jacuzzi) while they are surrounded by snow and ice you're thinking...man, they looked so damn relaxed, they look stoned almost!
Let's face it- these monkeys are having a damn good time!! You can look at their face and tell. They know it, you know it, everyone knows it!
-------------------- I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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Positronius
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Re: Baraka [Re: Jellric]
#2713437 - 05/21/04 11:46 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Baraka is a very good film, but dont confuse it for any sort of objective observation of life on earth, its a very skewed, very discriminatory, directed, convoluted attempt to present the viewer with a refined vision of life within the filmmaker's biased paradigms.
its basically a really beautiful propaganda peice.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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mr crisper
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biased propaganda! no! i'd love to see baraka's opposite 'neo-con reply to baraka' imho koyaanisquatsi is way better
anyway, nice coincidence, i watched baraka last night. the monkeys hang out in hotsprings around nikko, japan. they have a tendency to relieve themselves in the water, hence the contented expression.
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Oddish
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Quote:
mr crisper said: tendency to relieve themselves in the water, hence the contented expression.
Yeah, I get that look when I let loose in the swimming pool.
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Shroomism
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How can something be biased when there is zero words, zero comments, zero opinions... just pictures? The only thing that could be biased is the viewer watching those pictures, and associating things with those images that creates a bias in his/her mind. The bias is preconceived notions from the viewer, not the movie. That's like NASA taking pictures of some galaxy and saying that galaxy is propoganda.
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NariusFractal
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Quote:
Shroomism said: How can something be biased when there is zero words, zero comments, zero opinions... just pictures? The only thing that could be biased is the viewer watching those pictures, and associating things with those images that creates a bias in his/her mind. The bias is preconceived notions from the viewer, not the movie.
By showing only pictures showing only scenes that reveal a negative aspect of a group or institution, without showing equally positive pictures about the group. and vice-versa
-------------------- You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.
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lukeboots
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Quote:
sheister said: By showing only pictures showing only scenes that reveal a negative aspect of a group or institution, without showing equally positive pictures about the group. and vice-versa
yeah, but i kinda thought the point of the video was to group humanity into one large category.. not separate us into factions. the movie wasn't meant to trash on certain aspects of humanity - it simply shows parrallels between cultures.
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CleverName
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what makes any image negative/positive?
-------------------- if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it? this is the purpose
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el_duderino
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i think, more than anything it just shows the beauty that is diversity! It does show both the negative and positive aspect of humanity. I suppose you could say it is a propaganda piece against capitalism or something. In regard to the scene where it shows the brutality of battery hens and the scenes with the sped up traffic and then the factory jobs, to me that represents how dull and lifeless the fast paced material (capitalistic) world -of work your arse off and then consume/buy shit you dont really want or need- is. I thought it was great how it showed the chickens stuck in their cages and soon after it showed the people working repetitive factory jobs doing the same thing over and over in their own sort of prison. I loved watching the city traffic scene and the trainstation all the sped up motion scenes, ...very trippy. but my favourite part is the tribe doing the chanting, or seeing that old man with the reeeeaaaally long dreadlocks!
Edited by el_duderino (05/22/04 11:25 AM)
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Shroomism
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again, negative and positive are human concepts.. that is a bias created in the human mind based on past experiences or other pre-conceived notions. Showing cultures in action and nature at work is not negative or positive, and can only be perceived as such by the subjective individual.
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Mixomatosis
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"How can something be biased when there is zero words, zero comments, zero opinions... just pictures?"
Here's how: Depict westerners living in universally-accepted shitty conditions (repetetive meaningless work) and show the mutilation of baby animals.
The film itself is an expression of a person's subjective view of reality. Did it portray humans like me living in the west able to support myself with only 3 months of work a year with the rest of my time pursueing my art thanks to our powerful economy and consumer-society? Nope.. factory workers. Does it show nature-dwelling people committing genocide or enslaving neighbouring tribes? Nope.. meaningful spiritual rituals.
As an amateur photographer, trust me, you don't need words to produce what we in this thread are calling "propaganda".
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Shroomism
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yes I realize that words are not always needed to necessitate propaganda.. advertising can attest to that. and perhaps the view of the cameraman was a some skewed subjective view of reality, but I think that the film very efficiently demonstrates and observes the extreme diversity of life on Earth in these modern times. Certainly it was not perfect and without flaws, but it is perfect in its imperfection. Baby chick mutilation is a rather mild example of the negative dominating attitude that exists on Earth, yet that is a very striking and memorable thing. It also shows the beauty of nature, and many other things. It is not propaganda, it is an honest look at the various states of Earth. So it doesn't show every single aspect of existence. I don't think that was the point of it. Besides that would be a really, really, really, really long movie.
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Positronius
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"again, negative and positive are human concepts.. that is a bias created in the human mind based on past experiences or other pre-conceived notions. Showing cultures in action and nature at work is not negative or positive, and can only be perceived as such by the subjective individual."
shroomism, "baraka" fits perfectly into your world view, and thus you do not experience any intellectual conflict when you watch it. If you thought differently, the films extreme degree of bias and (obvious) attempts at manipulation would be much more apparent. Germans are a very diverse people, from herman hesse to hitler. Lets say I make a film about german history and culture with ONLY images, and I ONLY show shots of concentration camps and Kraftwerk music videos.
Dont you think thats a biased view, attempting to manipulate the viewer to get them to think of Germans in a certain light?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Positronius
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"It is not propaganda, it is an honest look at the various states of Earth"
says the brainwashed hippy.
please man, open up your mind and look closer.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Shroomism
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yes, I do what is so convoluted about baraka? If you could put me into a category I don't think "brainwashed hippy" would be the right one.
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Edited by Shroomism (05/22/04 01:44 PM)
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Positronius
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what is so convoluted about baraka?
everything, its a calculated attempt to make people view modern life as negative, destructive and insane, in comparison to a more pure, spiritual past indigeneous life and the animal world.
which is completely ludicrious of course, for many reasons.
All the images of the "modern/industrialized" world shown are very negative, or imply negativity, and this is contrasted with positive images of the indigeneous/naturalistic past/quasi-present.
now....its not true propaganda, but the fact that no "positive" images of modern life are shown (which can be very beautiful) in contrasted with all of the beautiful images shown of non-modern life is a slick attempt to demonize modern life.
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Shroomism
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alright.. now I fully understand your point of view. that is very insightful of you.. I had only seen it once but I did notice a sort of implied negativity towards modern society, now that I think about it.. good show well, at least it's better than U.S government propaganda..
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Mixomatosis
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wow, understanding between two previously opposing views.. what's going on here??
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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I never said I was concretely set in my views I am always open for evolution and learning Now we smoke pipe
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Mixomatosis
great ape
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well then we should take up that argument about martial arts again sometime.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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what was that again? I forget.. dolphins can destroy sharks
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Mixomatosis
great ape
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I admit I don't have a clever retort
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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so? chi-sao is great!
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question_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
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The thing about it demonizing modern life might be true, but I still think overall it's a positive movie.
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Mixomatosis
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....
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el_duderino
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hmm so it demonizes modern life... err have only i noticed that this great progress of human kind is kinda f*ckin up the planet and from a little observations the modern capitalist world is not nearly as beautiful nature. I mean sure i love technology and i am a 21st century digital boy with my material things i love, but they're not beautiful - except maybe a 2m wide TV or sumthin... another point, -consumers, materialists, modern man- are not very happy. We always have to strive for more, work more to buy more. As some greek philosopher said (i gotta remember names better!) to achieve happiness is very simple! You need friends, you need self-reliability (ie: shelter, food etc..) and time to reflect. Material things give a false happiness. This is the philosophy i wish to adopt but right now i like my DVD's Tv's and computer games too. Mixomatosis - thats great you live in a wealthy western society and dont need to work your arse off. In Hong Kong (or wherever the filming of the factory workers was), they need to work a shitload harder. It was just showing that negative aspect of human progress too. umm.. okay so its a piece with a somewhat skewed perspective, (from my knowledge of propaganda it's deliberately misinforming the public for ones own benefit- which this piece does not do). It is not propaganda, it shows negative aspects of modern civilisation whilst not showing the 'beautiful' aspects but doesn't lie anywhere at all. In any case i still find it to be a beautifully filmed piece - albeit a bit boring - so i haven't seen it in a while and hence i don't have a fresh perspective of it so i probably shouldn't comment . edit: to be fair there are many beautiful things in modern society; art for example, architecture, cinema - beautful movies like Baraka
Edited by el_duderino (05/23/04 05:07 AM)
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Shroomism
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yes if you ask me modern society could use a little demonizing.. what with all the demonizing IT does to: hemp, marijuana, free thinkers, freedom, the Earth, nature, etc, etc, etc.
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Mixomatosis
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another point, -consumers, materialists, modern man- are not very happy. We always have to strive for more, work more to buy more.
The choice to follow the modern-day path of materialism and unhappiness is up to you. We're not forced to work and pointlessly consume. All you're really saying is that unhappy people are unhappy.
it shows negative aspects of modern civilisation whilst not showing the 'beautiful' aspects but doesn't lie anywhere at all.
what you describe, "it shows negative aspects of modern civilisation whilst not showing the 'beautiful' aspects" is a lie in itself. What if you made a documentary on German history but only showed the times when Germany was feeling militaristic and genocidal? Sure, the material wouldn't be a lie, but the overall picture of Germany would be innacurate, that is, a lie. Baraka works on this same level.
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lukeboots
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"but the overall picture of Germany would be innacurate, that is, a lie. Baraka works on this same level."
no, it wouldn't be inaccurate. it's up to the viewer to assume that germany is JUST militaristic or genocidal, not the video. providing footage of the past (things that actually happened) cannot be called a lie. it's what really happened, it's a part of the history. just because they only show one part or something doesn't really make it false.
what im trying to get at..is that -you're- the one viewing it as some evil piece of propaganda. your argument is just like saying "they can't have a nascar commercial that doesn't show cars crashing! that's biased, they aren't giving the whole picture!"
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blink
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Post deleted by blinkidiotReason for deletion: Im sorry
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Positronius
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Re: Baraka [Re: blink]
#2718699 - 05/23/04 02:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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"what im trying to get at..is that -you're- the one viewing it as some evil piece of propaganda. your argument is just like saying "they can't have a nascar commercial that doesn't show cars crashing! that's biased, they aren't giving the whole picture!"" snore. When did I say it was an evil piece of propaganda? oh whats that? never? Whatever, believe what you want to believe, but Baraka's thesis is quite obvious to anyone with half a brain. "the aztecs chanting being my favorite" Aztecs chanting??? " -consumers, materialists, modern man- are not very happy" as opposed to those feudel peasents who were ALWAYS happy eh? ahh, if we could only go back in time. Maybe you should get some new friends, everyone I know is quite happy/
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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NewSpore
Just Starting toSee the Light
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5 Chum Kiu forms barefoot on hot black top would really determine a winner...........
This movie does relay vivid comparisons. It was powerful to see some horrid truths about what it means to be "Urban Living". The old ways make sense. I was told that the the two tribes that were facing each other we Acting out War. That society rose past killing each other to work out their problems... Send the tape to Bush........
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-------------------- Be in truth and watch the magic happen. SBP TEK
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el_duderino
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hmm maybe what i meant to say is that humanity seems destined to be Unhappy (not saying we all are, but it seesm we're that way inclined) as opposed to that happy little monkey at the start, i would love to just sit in a nice hot bath like that all day I will agree that it is a biased view of the world (as is EVERY creative act ever made) from the filmmakers perspective, by selecting to film certain aspects and not filming others but not Propaganda! I mean common what is the real intention of the movie anyway? It's just self expression, it's not trying to change your mind about anything, just showing what this filmmaker wished to film.. heres a thought.. Maybe the filmmaker hated all the nature parts and the tribe chanting and thought them to be ugly. Maybe he loved to watch city traffic, crammed trains and animal cruelty. Maybe he thought factory jobs are beautiful. He was just showing the nature crap to add balance to the piece. It is just your subjective opinion that his beliefs were different. (not sure if you guys ever mentioned his bleiefs so forgive me if im wrong) My point is that yes it is selective in what is filmed but the meaning of the picture (if there is any) is what you take from it, it is your subjective biased opinion. Therefore it cannot be propaganda without any spoken word or written messages. - It's just images! Re: modern man is unhappy, your rebutal 'so were old civilisations'. yes true not denying that, just saying that material happiness is a fake happiness, the striving for objects, money, land, power will give you a sense of always lacking something and likely in the process make everyone around you unhappy, with the going to war and all that (result of wanting more power). True happiness, i think, is what that philosopher dude said, I'll get his name later.
Edited by el_duderino (05/24/04 05:58 AM)
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Mixomatosis
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yes true not denying that, just saying that material happiness is a fake happiness, the striving for objects, money, land, power will give you a sense of always lacking something and likely in the process make everyone around you unhappy that's amazing
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el_duderino
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huh? what's your point? you just being hillariously witty? I'm only making a comment on what i got from the film, as obvious and plain as it might be...
I still do disagree that the movie is Propaganda and i can't see what sort of argument your making by poking fun at my comment. Unless you're being genuine in which case i must say it's pretty cliched and has been said many a time, not very amazing really.
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