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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27124575 - 01/03/21 07:21 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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We have extremely low voter participation here. If that isn't an indication of a general belief they have no vested interest in the system, I'm not sure what would be. We've had 40% or more of eligible voters abstain in Pres elections since 1968.
As for the Dems and their "opposition", the only conclusions I can come to are that they have been incredibly incompetent and ineffectual or that they (at least the leadership) have been complicit. Given the length of time and the many incompetent elected dems relative to reps required for the first, I'm inclined to believe the latter. I am interested in how you came to the other conclusion.
Militaries facture to some greater or lesser extent during civil wars and revolutions. That's just the way of things. A big part of chain of command is imposed authority from above. When that authority becomes questionable or issues orders far outside the interests of the rank and file (like go kill your friends and family), there are inevitable defections and desertions.
Another good question with any number of answers. People try by doing what they are capable of. For a rare few, that includes being a charismatic leader or whatever. For the rest of us it includes using the skills and resources available to sway public opinion, or using medical training to render first aid at protest marches or any endless other myriad of things that people are able to do to influence their own tiny piece of the world.
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Kryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
#27124612 - 01/03/21 07:35 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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Low voter participation does not mean "no vested interest in the system". Not paying taxes, not caring about police, knowing that the grocery store is a waste of time, and otherwise living outside of society is. There are plenty of people that don't vote that would have a stroke if their 401k started tanking. Interestingly, I was once told that I cannot be a true leftist because I have a 401k.
Incompetence is a much better explanation, in my view. Specifically, inability to recognize the long term trend of gridlock for the sake of gridlock started by Gingrich. Unfortunately, this is an indictment on political ideology. Democrats thought a little bit of appeasement would bring republicans back to the table, a necessary process in a democratic government. Republicans, on the other hand, began to campaign on the "government is bad, see how broken it is" after...breaking the government. This is a more fundamental flaw of real life: it is harder to build, than to destroy; and unless you're willing to go full authoritarian, you must compromise. I believe it was Goebbels that said '[it] will always remain one of the best jokes of democracy, that it gave its deadly enemies the means by which it was destroyed'.
Not to the extent necessary for a complete collapse in the chain of command to the extent that the military becomes equivalent to your neighborhood ragtag leftists.
As for your last point: How is this different from "working within the system"?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27124629 - 01/03/21 07:46 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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There are whole generations without a sniff of a 401k. We live in a gig economy now with worker protections and sweet benefits like pension, 401k, medical, dental or enough pay to live with dignity having long gone by the wayside for most.
Voter participation certainly couldn't be the only metric worth looking at, certainly. Interesting that you mentioned the police angle what with the increasing awareness among the public that the police are not their benevolent protectors and the rise of BLM and Defund the Police which would seem to bolster my argument.
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Kryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#27124649 - 01/03/21 08:02 PM (3 years, 25 days ago) |
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See, I think we're quickly barreling towards a critical mass of people that are outside the system on a societal scale, but we are nowhere near that point yet. People that exist truly outside of the system are still a very small minority of the population, but they are growing. Gig economy simply hasn't been around long enough to permeate society as a whole.
This is why I'm hoping leftists can come up with some coherent organization that is able to make use of this societal trend. I fear that in the absence of such a message, the endgame will be a civil war perpetrated by the wealthiest members of society as one last cash grab on their way to greener pastures overseas. After all, that's usually how empires end.
From a colonialist perspective, we're at the catabolic phase. There is nowhere else to colonize, either in the physical or economic sense, so society begins to devour itself, starting from the bottom.
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director



Registered: 10/05/20
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27124883 - 01/03/21 10:12 PM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Trump tried getting the secretary of state for Georgia to change the election results illegally today.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#27125413 - 01/04/21 06:52 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I don’t think anyone wants bipartisanship.
And people vandalizing the homes of both parties’ leaders suggests to me that it’s not about polarization, it’s about a growing awareness of the populace that neither party gives a shit about them.
I wouldn't count on growing awareness. People have been saying that since the 60's, and nothing has changed. Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Political strategy doesn’t mean shit if power isn’t behind you.
Again, the argument was what is better for the American people, not what is easier to pass in the US senate.
Political strategy is how you put the power behind you.
You know what's better for the American people? Guaranteed shelter, guaranteed food, guaranteed housing, guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed jobs, and a national goal that we can all unify behind.
You know the easiest way to do that? Hitler did. Militarize the populace and proceed with endless conquest for the sake of conquest.
 Hitler seriously fucked up by invading France. Probably could have kept Poland and Czechoslovakia if he hadn't had such a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature/strategy. In fact, that was the plan initially. I have serious doubts about your hypothesis here. It isn't supported by the facts as far as I can tell. Certainly it didn't work for Caesar in the end. Justinian was almost deposed despite his vigorous attempts to re-expand the empire. It didn't work out for Sparta and when Epaminondas broke their power over the peninsula via armed conflict, the place did not, in fact, degenerate into a bunch of tribal warlords. At least, not any more than it already was. It worked for Napolean but only for as long as it took for the rest of europe to adapt to his short term tactical/strategic advantages on terms of conscription and speed of march. The real lesson of history is that there is no front united enough to overcome the strategic overstretch associated with conquest for the sake of conquest.
I think Hitler could have kept France. He seriously fucked up by invading Russia. When the Russians held Stalingrad, that was the beginning of the end, whether D-Day happened or not. But yes, settling for Poland and Czechoslovakia would have been the safest bet, and they would have achieved their goal of living space.
Crossing Stalin was Hitler's biggest mistake. Another one was switching from strategic to civilian targets in the bombing raids on Britain.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
#27125426 - 01/04/21 07:00 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: We have extremely low voter participation here. If that isn't an indication of a general belief they have no vested interest in the system, I'm not sure what would be. We've had 40% or more of eligible voters abstain in Pres elections since 1968.
As for the Dems and their "opposition", the only conclusions I can come to are that they have been incredibly incompetent and ineffectual or that they (at least the leadership) have been complicit. Given the length of time and the many incompetent elected dems relative to reps required for the first, I'm inclined to believe the latter. I am interested in how you came to the other conclusion.
Militaries facture to some greater or lesser extent during civil wars and revolutions. That's just the way of things. A big part of chain of command is imposed authority from above. When that authority becomes questionable or issues orders far outside the interests of the rank and file (like go kill your friends and family), there are inevitable defections and desertions.
Another good question with any number of answers. People try by doing what they are capable of. For a rare few, that includes being a charismatic leader or whatever. For the rest of us it includes using the skills and resources available to sway public opinion, or using medical training to render first aid at protest marches or any endless other myriad of things that people are able to do to influence their own tiny piece of the world.
I would go with Democrats incompetent and complicit. But every day Trump makes Harris 2024 more likely. So still complicit, but hoping to luck into some competence.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


Registered: 12/13/17
Posts: 9,136
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27125482 - 01/04/21 07:39 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Wow. 600 hundred in this morning. Carry on with this wonderful conversation. I will spend it on blow and hookers. 
Sorry, when I see your avatar and watching a whole doc. about him and the Stones on his life it just makes me laugh in a good way.
These arguments with some really aren't going to matter much. IMO. On with life. Don't piss off a Brit poolman. Death by misadventure.
I WANT COKE when in a Muslim country back then. That was great. Not mocking him or you just, a very interesting life and Mick stole his vibe and fashion and attitude from him. But did it in a smart way.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Barnaby]
#27125501 - 01/04/21 07:50 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Was the documentary Crossfire Hurricane or another one?
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Brian Jones]
#27125561 - 01/04/21 08:29 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I think Hitler could have kept France. He seriously fucked up by invading Russia. When the Russians held Stalingrad, that was the beginning of the end, whether D-Day happened or not. But yes, settling for Poland and Czechoslovakia would have been the safest bet, and they would have achieved their goal of living space.
Crossing Stalin was Hitler's biggest mistake. Another one was switching from strategic to civilian targets in the bombing raids on Britain.
No he couldn't. He was psychologically incapable of that. Orwell put it very well in his book review of Mein Kampf (ironically, it is very difficult to find an uncensored version of Orwell's book review). Hitler was a man of absolute ideas with a flexible time table. He would have attacked Britain, and he would have attacked Russia. The question was when. Turned out that Russia was easier to bribe in 1939.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27125815 - 01/04/21 10:44 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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The non aggression pact was always temporary, both Stalin and Hitler knew that. If the allies didn’t want to leave a vacuum for Hitler, they should’ve tried to not completely fuck over Bavaria in the treaty of Versailles, penalizing Germany for a war they didn’t even start. Then again, if the Entente powers had acted in the public interest from the beginning then there never would have been a world war to begin with.
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koods
Ribbit



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Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27125840 - 01/04/21 10:59 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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So I guess the $2000 is dead?
I’m sure they’ll figure a way to blame the democrats
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: koods]
#27125842 - 01/04/21 11:00 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Yeah it’s dead.
Even if the Dems pick up those two senate seats it’s still dead.
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


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Posts: 9,136
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: koods]
#27125848 - 01/04/21 11:02 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Turtle man. Don't look forward to another 1,400. Will be be interesting what happens in Georgia shortly. Will decide much in many ways.
Supreme court, lol. Garland compared to new light woman, wow.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Barnaby]
#27125866 - 01/04/21 11:08 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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If McConnell stays majority leader: “sorry no $2k Moscow Mitch is at it again!”
If Dems take Senate majority: “sorry no $2k we have to protect our Joe Manchins and our Kristen Sinemas.”
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


Registered: 12/13/17
Posts: 9,136
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27125885 - 01/04/21 11:14 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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What the fuck are you taking about? Best is 5050. I think I am at my post limit and I don't want to get banned from the Republican and Trump supporter Mods in High School so this conversation cannot continue. Be wary of them, seriously. Not the Shroomery of old.
Think of it as Chinese or North Korea. But they get their $$$. Let us cheer them!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Barnaby]
#27125968 - 01/04/21 11:46 AM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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The Vice President is the tiebreaker in the event of a 50-50 vote in the Senate.
So if the Dems pick up two seats it’s an even split, any simple majority vote tiebreaker will be cast by (after inauguration in a week) Kamala Harris.
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27126080 - 01/04/21 12:32 PM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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Do you think they will? High voter turnout which is a good sign or just old white folk showing up. As is the history.
So, think the Dems get it or Repubs? And I get the vice president thing. They actually do have a say if the president doesn't die.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Barnaby] 1
#27126089 - 01/04/21 12:35 PM (3 years, 24 days ago) |
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If the Democrats win they’ll be forced to actually do something, so no, I don’t think they will.
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27127907 - 01/05/21 10:29 AM (3 years, 23 days ago) |
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Politicians have no power. An illusion on the masses to think one has a say. You don't. So who controls them so people don't revolt?
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