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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27124121 - 01/03/21 02:47 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Either way this is so far off topic from the original argument: which is better for Americans in general? Everyone getting $2k (with a delayed defense bill) or passing the defense bill immediately and people not getting $2k.

That’s the argument.

Your thoughts on political strategy and realpolitik have nothing to do with it.


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InvisibleBarnaby
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: koods]
    #27124122 - 01/03/21 02:48 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Muslims are not allowed to migrate to Poland.:sad:

Have a great big pity party.  Or slit a journalists throat.  Whatever.  I am just Muslim. :shrug:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27124124 - 01/03/21 02:49 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

No, the original argument is that congress just passed a 900B bill that included $600 dollar checks for everyone.

As for your attempt to reframe the debate into a theoretical position which cannot be wrong: Yes. You're right. Debate closed.

Now what?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124125 - 01/03/21 02:49 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Okay. Well, as per your standard, I declare that The Ecstatic is a dictator hellbent on seizing complete power, and right now his arguments in favor of leftism are not honest, but simply a broad appeal to the masses.

Prove me wrong, or quit moving goalposts.




Go into the future, see how my early political promises played out, whether I used power to crush workers, unions, and the left in general, my Reich eventually getting overthrown BY communists, come back to our current moment, and present that historical evidence.

Then I’ll be owned.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27124127 - 01/03/21 02:50 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, the original argument is that congress just passed a 900B bill that included $600 dollar checks for everyone.

As for your attempt to reframe the debate into a theoretical position which cannot be wrong: Yes. You're right. Debate closed.

Now what?




I accept your apology.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124128 - 01/03/21 02:50 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

I want to address you assertions about the "they are all the same" argument with regard to the single-party rule we have in the US.

First, naturally, no 2 people, let alone an entire political party can be literally "the same". I think everyone who matters is capable of understanding that.  That said, there is an important distinction to be made between differences in kind and differences of degree. Even among genocidal lunatics, for example, there are almost certainly differences to the degree of genocidal lunacy. This fact does not discount similarities in kind, namely, genocidal lunacy. That is an extreme example but the principle applies. Now, certainly, there may be some individuals within one or another wing of our Capital Party who would like to transcend the policies put forth by party leadership but the proof really is in the pudding.  We judge a tree by it's fruit, in this case.  The history of "two" party politics in the last, say, 150 years in the US, is one of bamboozlement of the public via the Hegelian dialectic model in which a thesis is presented by one "faction", antithesis presented by the "opposing faction" with the ultimate synthesis being presented as "reasoned compromise" which has been lionized as the ultimate goal of politics in general despite the fact that many problems/questions have a single correct answer with any deviation yielding an incorrect answer. Failing to acknowledge this can only lead to more of the same.
A very simple example would be a disagreement over the sum of 1+1. If I say the sum is 4 and you say 2, a compromise of 3 is as worthless as any other incorrect answer. Yet we celebrate working "across the aisle" and "bipartisanship" in many cases that have a profound effect on our lives, often not for the better.  The beauty of the whole scam is that it marginalizes anyone attempting to work outside the umbrella of the 2 official wings of the National Party, including those attempting to "reform the system from within" by joining the ranks of one wing or the other.  Of course, The other thing to consider about the "both sides" argument is even more insidious, at least in that it is more subtle. Namely, the assumption by the nature of the argument that there are only two sides and thus, two sorts of people with two "opposing" sets of interests. Anyone who thinks about it for more than a second or 2 can see that this assumption is obviously false on it's face. That's the thing, though, we aren't afforded the opportunity to question the scam without instantly joining the ranks of pie in the sky idealists who can never affect meaningful change for failure to work within the system that has no mechanism for meaningful dissent.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124136 - 01/03/21 02:53 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

To summarize: The Game is rigged.

To counter: If you do not play The Game, you die.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124153 - 01/03/21 03:03 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Not if you change the rules. It's been done before.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124156 - 01/03/21 03:05 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

How?

That's the fundamental point. How do you change the rules?

The obvious answer is "start a war". The obvious outcome of that is the guy with the biggest army makes the new rules, and you don't have the biggest army.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27124195 - 01/03/21 03:30 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

The next time they vandalize Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell's houses they should burn the damn things to the ground.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124220 - 01/03/21 03:48 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Again, not the lesson of history.
Using your obvious answer as an example, just in the past few hundred years there have been several successful revolutions pulled off by factions with limited resources and far from the "biggest army", let alone the best equipped.

US revolution
French Revolution
Napoleonic France
Arab revolt
Cuba
Vietnam(over an extended period)
Afghanistan(several times)
Russian Revolution

Off the top of my head.

Sometimes technology and material conditions can fundamentally change the rules such as when firearms largely eliminated the tactical advantages that Swedes or other Scandinavian types had in warfare by virtue of being somewhat larger on average than most other groups.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124263 - 01/03/21 04:15 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Again, not the lesson of history.
Using your obvious answer as an example, just in the past few hundred years there have been several successful revolutions pulled off by factions with limited resources and far from the "biggest army", let alone the best equipped.

US revolution
French Revolution
Napoleonic France
Arab revolt
Cuba
Vietnam(over an extended period)
Afghanistan(several times)
Russian Revolution

Off the top of my head.

Sometimes technology and material conditions can fundamentally change the rules such as when firearms largely eliminated the tactical advantages that Swedes or other Scandinavian types had in warfare by virtue of being somewhat larger on average than most other groups.




Yes, and over the last hundred years, thousands of people have played in the NFL. If you were a high school guidance counselor, would you suggest that every one of your students try to play pro football?

Referencing successful revolutions is about the clearest example of survivorship bias you can make. I notice you haven't mentioned any of the (many) failed revolutions that occurred in the same exact places at the same exact time periods.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27124296 - 01/03/21 04:35 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

You asked how to change the rules and I ran with your example. I never said that every revolution is successful, only that several have been in recent history. Presumably, the point of asking how to change the rules was to imply that the rules are more or less immutable. If that presumption was incorrect on my part, I apologize, but that is the point I refuted with my list of examples

Even if 99% of revolutions during that period were unsuccessful, it would not fundamentally modify my point. The rules change when someone(s) decide to change them. It doesn't always work but it works far more often than making no attempt.

If faced with a binary choice between indentured servitude and playing pro football, yes I would suggest to every single student that they attempt pro football. Context is important.

Perhaps you could provide a few examples of quiet acquiescence to power that were successful in causing a paradigm shift?



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InvisibleBarnaby
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124310 - 01/03/21 04:41 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

It is like that movie.  Where the woman is ready for sex and pulls down the pants expecting something much larger, and then yells, "REALLY"!

Fuck it and turtle living man.

The Dude.  And Walter.

Those that get it get it.  Would of liked that 2k.:begger:  Life goes

on. Not going to bitch about it.  What good does it do?  Would of been nice.

Best advice I have been given.  And I get endless that is useless. If you can't enjoy it what is the point of it?  Great wisdom I know.  Time to be with one woman.  Am serious, blah, monogamy.  Responsibility with reason and logic.  A movie I just watched changed my mind about a lot of things.

No mocking and congrats and all that shit.  On with it.  GET ON WITH IT!





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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27124315 - 01/03/21 04:49 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Often time the successful revolutions follow failed ones. It’s not a zero sum game.

There’s a reason why the old adage about only needing 15% of the populous on your side to overthrow a government holds true, and is so fascinating. Ball is pointing out successful underdog stories to show (I think) that when it comes to historical conflicts it’s any given sunday. If challenging power structures were never thought to be able to succeed, people wouldn’t attempt them, and they’d prove themselves right.


Look how much Bernie has shaped the political landscape in just 4 years. Some cranky jew went on stage with Hillary and told Americans over and over “look, we actually can have nice things in this country we just have to demand it from our elected leaders.” And now his ideas have taken over about half the Democratic Party (ostensibly), there’s a legit socialist caucus in the House, 90% of dem voters want his policies enacted, and in some cases a majority of republicans. We’ve reframed the entire narrative around things like the military, the police, capitalism itself. Now of course Bernie didn’t do this on his own, a lot of the credit goes to activists and organizers, but he gave the ideas a tremendous platform, and he changed the mood of the entire country in a bunch of ideas. Did the average American think government was good and everything was working properly prior to 2016? Of course not, Bernie said what everyone already knew, what happened was he legitimized people’s anger and fear and concerns, and gave the public validation, and something tangible to rally behind. Occupy did the same but to a far lesser degree.


Like you said, it’s a question of how most successfully to bring about change. Bernie’s model is to use electoral politics to slowly but surely change public perception about certain issues, forcing the government to act accordingly.

A more successful approach, and with more immediate results, might be those 63% of Americans who believe healthcare is a public responsibility just refusing to go to work until the legislature at least takes a vote on the issue, or extracts some other related concession. Then you’re weighing the economic effects of that against the loss in income/jobs/homes/etc of those participants who are retaliated against against the prospect of a meaningful concession and how many people that concession might immediately or eventually help.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27124358 - 01/03/21 05:12 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Yes, regarding the reason for underdog revolution examples. There are other points to be made though with regard to changing the rules. Going back again to Napoleonic France, Napoleon didn't mount an protracted armed insurrection against the directorate. Certainly, 6000 grenadiers could not hope to overthrow the republic in a heads up fight. At best maybe you end up with several rival warring factions.  Luckily(for him), Napoleon didn't simply "follow the rules".  He used a combination of political intrigue, personal charisma, and application of (the threat of) force at an advantageous time and place to achieve a coup.  Hardly what I would call "playing the game by the rules"


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InvisibleBarnaby
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124360 - 01/03/21 05:14 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Will use it for a PS5 whenever they are available.  Is difficult to buy.  Muslims are awesome.  I have no idea why countries don't want them there.

Maybe the knives?  No freedom of the press?  The way they treat women?  Germany and that outcome?  Just don't know.:shrug:


Edited by Barnaby (01/03/21 05:17 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124363 - 01/03/21 05:16 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Context is indeed important. This is why I keep repeating my point that as long as leftists keep philosophizing without taking any context into account, they will remain a marginalized joke within society.

In the context of revolution, I'd go further: The only times revolutions successful in promoting leftist ideas, is when they took place in situations where there was a massive underclass within society that had no stake in the continued existence of the system.

Leftist revolutions in societies which did not have a large and disaffected pool of people to use as cannon fodder not only do not succeed, but generally result in a right wing backlash against leftist ideals, where the left leadership is executed, the further left ideas become illegal, and life generally goes on, except with a bit more right wing authoritarianism.

Now, to apply this context to the US: The most trusted institutions right now are, in order, the military (~74%), small business, (~67%), the police (~54%), the church (~38%), and the president (~37%). All of these are fundamentally right wing institutions.

Why do these institutions matter? They are established. They have brand recognition. They have existing leadership structures. They are the most likely to produce a revolutionary leader, given a revolutionary state of affairs. Given the support percentages, it is reasonable to assume that a majority, likely not a 75% majority but a majority nonetheless, would be okay with the establishment of a military junta in the US. This is not even considering the inherent force that the military (and police) are able to bring to bear from the outset.

Now, we consider the political factors at play. First, in a civil war, or revolutionary, situation, the people that fight are the people at the ends of the spectrum. Moderates generally try to either keep their heads down, or get executed for not joining a side early enough. Next, given that democratic leadership has been largely consistent on ideology. Pelosi (who's house someone suggested firebombing in this thread) tried to force a vote on single payer healthcare back in 1994. Republicans, on the other hand, have steadily moved further to the right over the last 20 years.

Specifically addressing the military, as the most likely candidate for a post-revolutionary mandate to rule, is split fairly evenly between democrats and republicans, sure, but ideologically the democrats in the military tend to be moderates, not leftists, and the republicans in the military tend to be...well, republicans. This almost certainly means that the best armed (military) and second best armed (police) factions will lead to a farther right state, politically speaking.

Given the context of the US, the most likely outcome of a revolution in the US is a farther right military junta.

However, there is still some value in revolutionary speech and spirit. Germany famously liberalized by "choice" in the late 19th century as a method of unification and preventing revolution. This would be a good example of leftists working within the system to change it. Did it change to a leftist utopia? No. But thing got better for people.

This is why I keep asking "How?"

If I had the answer to "How?", I wouldn't be here talking to random figments of my computer's imagination. You'd see me on TV, leading a leftist reorganization of US society.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
    #27124402 - 01/03/21 05:37 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
In the context of revolution, I'd go further: The only times revolutions successful in promoting leftist ideas, is when they took place in situations where there was a massive underclass within society that had no stake in the continued existence of the system.





Yes, now you're getting it.


Quote:

Kryptos said: Pelosi (who's house someone suggested firebombing in this thread) tried to force a vote on single payer healthcare back in 1994. Republicans, on the other hand, have steadily moved further to the right over the last 20 years.





Indeed, as has she.  Another reinforcement of the idea that the 2 wings of the National Party are largely the same and that "opposition" like that of Pelosi is mostly or wholly performative.


Quote:

Kryptos said:
Specifically addressing the military, as the most likely candidate for a post-revolutionary mandate to rule, is split fairly evenly between democrats and republicans, sure, but ideologically the democrats in the military tend to be moderates, not leftists, and the republicans in the military tend to be...well, republicans. This almost certainly means that the best armed (military) and second best armed (police) factions will lead to a farther right state, politically speaking.

Given the context of the US, the most likely outcome of a revolution in the US is a farther right military junta.





You're failing to take into account splintering of the first group based on differences other than the Rep/Dem divide. 47% of US armed forces are non-white, as an example.  The second group is very likely to be more monolithic in a revolutionary scenario, at least until circumstances start leading to things like delayed pay as violent interactions with the public increase in frequency.

Quote:

Kryptos said:

This is why I keep asking "How?"

If I had the answer to "How?", I wouldn't be here talking to random figments of my computer's imagination. You'd see me on TV, leading a leftist reorganization of US society.




How?  That is a good question. We could discuss how such things have been done and attempted in the past but that wouldn't necessarily yield an answer.  One thing I do know is that it won't happen if nobody tries.

Edit: I forgot to address your remark about Bismarck era Germany but I think you've contradicted yourself there.  You framed liberalization as a path to unification and a ward against revolution but credit leftists within the system for this which fails to acknowledge the implications of your premise. (that the leverage to force the incremental improvements came from the threat of disunity and revolution)


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Edited by ballsalsa (01/03/21 06:33 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27124510 - 01/03/21 06:40 PM (3 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
In the context of revolution, I'd go further: The only times revolutions successful in promoting leftist ideas, is when they took place in situations where there was a massive underclass within society that had no stake in the continued existence of the system.





Yes, now you're getting it.


Quote:

Kryptos said: Pelosi (who's house someone suggested firebombing in this thread) tried to force a vote on single payer healthcare back in 1994. Republicans, on the other hand, have steadily moved further to the right over the last 20 years.





Indeed, as has she.  Another reinforcement of the idea that the 2 wings of the National Party are largely the same and that "opposition" like that of Pelosi is mostly or wholly performative.


Quote:

Kryptos said:
Specifically addressing the military, as the most likely candidate for a post-revolutionary mandate to rule, is split fairly evenly between democrats and republicans, sure, but ideologically the democrats in the military tend to be moderates, not leftists, and the republicans in the military tend to be...well, republicans. This almost certainly means that the best armed (military) and second best armed (police) factions will lead to a farther right state, politically speaking.

Given the context of the US, the most likely outcome of a revolution in the US is a farther right military junta.





You're failing to take into account splintering of the first group based on differences other than the Rep/Dem divide. 47% of US armed forces are non-white, as an example.  The second group is very likely to be more monolithic in a revolutionary scenario, at least until circumstances start leading to things like delayed pay as violent interactions with the public increase in frequency.

Quote:

Kryptos said:

This is why I keep asking "How?"

If I had the answer to "How?", I wouldn't be here talking to random figments of my computer's imagination. You'd see me on TV, leading a leftist reorganization of US society.




How?  That is a good question. We could discuss how such things have been done and attempted in the past but that wouldn't necessarily yield an answer.  One thing I do know is that it won't happen if nobody tries.




1) Is not currently true in the US. That's the purpose of the middle class myth. The middle class is allowed their bread and circuses, and they pay all the taxes, while the poor people are used as a boogeyman to keep the middle class in line. I'd say less than 5% of the US population is both disinterested in the future of the system, and of those, probably no more than 5-10% are mentally and physically capable of an uprising, not to mention leadership.

2) Seems to me that this is evidence of the exact opposite point. Democrats have largely been ideologically consistent in their message of gradual improvement of people's lives, while the republicans lost interest in the future and became nothing more than an opposition party in 1994.

3) I don't think demographic differences are particularly important, especially in regards to the military. First off, there are many pro-authoritarian individuals of various demographics. Specifically, I still don't understand why the GOP doesn't exploit the exceedingly catholic and socially conservative hispanic population to their advantage. Second, the military is heavily invested in the conceptual destruction of demographic differences. The whole "brothers in arms" thing. Heck, that's half the point of uniforms: psychologically indoctrinating everyone to be a non-individual and replaceable cog in a machine that works as one. Plus, unlike the police, the military has a well developed logistical base that could be used to make the concept of "pay" irrelevant. Seize goods by force, and distribute them where needed. They're kinda communist like that.

4) What is "try"? Revolutionary art has been preemptively commercialized. See: Kurt Cobain followed by Nirvana clones, or The Simpsons followed by Simpsons clones, or even the Che Guevara t-shirt worn so ironically on so many college campuses. Revolutionary politics has been neutered by gridlock and the "both sides" narrative. Heck, questioning the fundamental truths that underpin society as a whole has become quite chic in the last few years.


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