|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27115712 - 12/30/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
US democrats are pretty shitty, but they're still miles better than the only viable alternative.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 4
#27116039 - 12/30/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Me: things should be better for people, we live in the richest country on earth.
Everyone else: things could also be worse. Did ya think about that genius?
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27116223 - 12/30/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Unfortunately, you play the cards you're dealt. In this case, there is no option for "things should be better for people" without a dramatic restructuring of the political landscape in the US. The choices are "shitty" and "shitty, but with extra shit".
This is one of my biggest complaints about breadtube nowadays. Reminds me of atheist tube back in the fedora days. Lots of anger about how things "should be", and a decided lack of useful action otherwise. Edit: Well, apart from insulting religious people, even those that are coming for help regarding leaving their religion.
Yes, things should be better. But they aren't. You can either vote for "shitty", or you can vote for "shittier". Abstaining is considered a default vote for "shittier", due to the way that the republican electorate votes. (consistently R in every election, no matter what they think of the candidate)
Idealism is great and all, but there is also a strategic element at play.
Sadly, recognizing that strategic element is why I'm consistently called a corporate shill in lefty spaces, when I openly advocate for the same things they do.
Edited by Kryptos (12/30/20 12:51 PM)
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 3
#27116269 - 12/30/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Yeah I mean you can either accurately point out the problems and get called a utopian idealist, or you can try to work inside the system to build something slightly better and get called a corporate shill. Not a fun thing, imo. No wonder people get a taste of popularity and go full status quo, it’s gotta be much easier on the psyche.
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27116313 - 12/30/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Yeah I mean you can either accurately point out the problems...
Interesting phrasing.
This is why I specifically said "back in the fedora days" for atheist youtube. Nowadays, atheist youtube, while it still has its share of toxic fucks, is a much better place. I know of at least 2 atheist youtubers that have started and currently run non-profits that are designed to help people that are escaping some of the crazier religious cults by providing access to resources, help, and community to replace the fellowship of the cult they are leaving behind.
I still go to those same lefty spaces that call me a corporate shill, because I think the fact that those spaces even exist compared to 10 years ago is a huge step forward. Sure, they're disorganized, angry, and lash out randomly, but at least the energy is there now. They're in that moody teenager phase. They're accurately pointing out the problems.
Unfortunately, they don't have any good solutions yet. I don't consider open revolution to be a good solution, because you'll radicalize the opposite side (see: Ayn Rand, born to aristocrats in 1910s Russia, libertarian wet dream and subject of many a neckbeard's deepest fantasies).
But the fact that the movement exists is a good sign. A few charismatic leaders, a better worded message, and there's a future for leftism in the US. I'm not charismatic enough to be a leader (would you follow me?), but I can try to hone their message by playing devil's advocate as much as possible. That's why I jump on every single topic shivas.wisdom posts arguing against it.
I don't know how to work outside the system in a useful manner. But I do know how to work within the system, doing my best to change it. If I ever make enough money, I'd love to start a self sufficient socialist co-op on some land somewhere, eventually. Just to at least demonstrate viability.
EDIT: Option B is that the whole thing collapses under its weight, which is functionally the same as revolution.
Edited by Kryptos (12/30/20 01:51 PM)
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,340
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27116456 - 12/30/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: DSA isn’t a party.
He officially joined the Democratic Party during the last presidential race, not sure if he’s become independent again since then or what.
Regardless, if he isn’t a democrat, that’s an even bigger indictment of the party that he’s the only one trying to advance the interests of its base.
You're right. I knew they weren't a successful party, but I didn't know they weren't a party. AOC got a few more allies in congress from their ranks, but it's going to be a long haul.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Brian Jones] 2
#27117647 - 12/31/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
After Bernie decided to actually do some politics and leverage something against McConnell (defense spending) in order to get a vote on the $2000 survival checks, Democrat leadership caved immediately and decided to make sure Raytheon got their money instead of you, including the ever-cackling yas kween herself, Mrs VP Elect.

Even when the Democrats HAVE the leverage to do something, they refuse.
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27117745 - 12/31/20 08:20 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
I don't think democrats had as much leverage as you'd think they did.
Fact is, defense spending in the US *is* a form of welfare. There are plenty of factories in swing states making tank parts or plane parts that the military will never use for anything but target practice, but still employ a bunch of people.
|
christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,201
Last seen: 2 hours, 4 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27117777 - 12/31/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
I guess the nice thing about military welfare is that it's easy to sell to voters.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27117800 - 12/31/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said: I don't think democrats had as much leverage as you'd think they did.
Fact is, defense spending in the US *is* a form of welfare. There are plenty of factories in swing states making tank parts or plane parts that the military will never use for anything but target practice, but still employ a bunch of people.
So trickle down economics.
Regardless, the Democrats did have leverage. Biden, Schumer, and Harris just didn’t want to use it for a cause as lousy as “make sure people don’t die.” Better to play it safe and make sure we get the “make sure people die” military money as soon as possible.
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27117911 - 12/31/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Unfortunately, more or less, yeah. Military welfare is concentrated in swing states, and the election is over.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 2
#27117930 - 12/31/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Now we just have to figure out which is bigger:
- number of voters - number of voters who work for defense contractors
--------------------
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27117997 - 12/31/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
You're excluding downstream effects.
Many voter that don't work for defense contractors work on supporting the workers that work for defense contractors. Sorta like a mine town or a mill town, but...for tanks.
And of course there's the voters that like the "small town charm" of an entire community reliant on the US building tanks they will never use, and don;t like when those types of town fall apart due to the only industry in town closing shop.
|
koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 5 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27118105 - 12/31/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
The granddaddy of all the defense contractors is a 15 minute hike through the woods from my back door. I don’t think I’ve known anyone that works there.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 2
#27118182 - 12/31/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said: You're excluding downstream effects.
Many voter that don't work for defense contractors work on supporting the workers that work for defense contractors. Sorta like a mine town or a mill town, but...for tanks.
And of course there's the voters that like the "small town charm" of an entire community reliant on the US building tanks they will never use, and don;t like when those types of town fall apart due to the only industry in town closing shop.
Like you said, the election is over.
Regardless, we live in a consumer economy, the whole thing is a downstream effect. If you give everyone money, they will spend it, helping everyone. If you give the defense contractors money, they’ll store it overseas.
Not sure how you think this works. Raytheon employees get raises every time a new defense budget is passed? Raytheon invests that money in their local community?
If that’s your argument let’s just give the entire 2021 budget to the nation’s biggest employers (and coincidentally richest companies): Walmart and Amazon. They already pay zero taxes, crush local businesses, and refuse to pay livable wages (whose employees the taxpayers have to subsidize), but fuck it let’s give them everything and cross our fingers they make the stock market number go up.
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27118303 - 12/31/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Even when the Democrats HAVE the leverage to do something, they refuse.
Let's try to get the Dems to vote for Medicare for All by demanding they NOT vote for that rich cunt Pelosi unless she allows a vote on it.
#ForceTheVote
Please sign if you think Medicare for All is a good idea. It'll be cheaper for all but the richest Americans.
Needs to be signed before they vote for Speaker of the House on 3 Jan.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27118338 - 12/31/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: You're excluding downstream effects.
Many voter that don't work for defense contractors work on supporting the workers that work for defense contractors. Sorta like a mine town or a mill town, but...for tanks.
And of course there's the voters that like the "small town charm" of an entire community reliant on the US building tanks they will never use, and don;t like when those types of town fall apart due to the only industry in town closing shop.
Like you said, the election is over.
Regardless, we live in a consumer economy, the whole thing is a downstream effect. If you give everyone money, they will spend it, helping everyone. If you give the defense contractors money, they’ll store it overseas.
Not sure how you think this works. Raytheon employees get raises every time a new defense budget is passed? Raytheon invests that money in their local community?
If that’s your argument let’s just give the entire 2021 budget to the nation’s biggest employers (and coincidentally richest companies): Walmart and Amazon. They already pay zero taxes, crush local businesses, and refuse to pay livable wages (whose employees the taxpayers have to subsidize), but fuck it let’s give them everything and cross our fingers they make the stock market number go up.
No, just like every other contractor, their employees stop getting paid when the budget isn't there.
It's not a question of trickling down, we all know that doesn't work. It's a question of whether the economics continue to exist, trickle or not.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 21 days
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos]
#27118368 - 12/31/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Which takes us back to The Ecstatic's point:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Now we just have to figure out which is bigger:
- number of voters - number of voters who work for defense contractors
Sure, a handful of people may lose their jobs, but a heck of a lot more would get a stimulus payment.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,263
Last seen: 47 minutes, 6 seconds
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27118374 - 12/31/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Which one is more meaningful, from a societal standpoint?
I don't mean in theory, I mean in practice, today, right now, including the effects of both capitalist and right wing propaganda.
Remember that something like 40% of the country would be extremely pissed off if their minority neighbor also got a stimulus.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 11 hours, 35 minutes
|
Re: After 9 months, Congress finally reaches a $900 billion covid relief... [Re: Kryptos] 3
#27118485 - 12/31/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: You're excluding downstream effects.
Many voter that don't work for defense contractors work on supporting the workers that work for defense contractors. Sorta like a mine town or a mill town, but...for tanks.
And of course there's the voters that like the "small town charm" of an entire community reliant on the US building tanks they will never use, and don;t like when those types of town fall apart due to the only industry in town closing shop.
Like you said, the election is over.
Regardless, we live in a consumer economy, the whole thing is a downstream effect. If you give everyone money, they will spend it, helping everyone. If you give the defense contractors money, they’ll store it overseas.
Not sure how you think this works. Raytheon employees get raises every time a new defense budget is passed? Raytheon invests that money in their local community?
If that’s your argument let’s just give the entire 2021 budget to the nation’s biggest employers (and coincidentally richest companies): Walmart and Amazon. They already pay zero taxes, crush local businesses, and refuse to pay livable wages (whose employees the taxpayers have to subsidize), but fuck it let’s give them everything and cross our fingers they make the stock market number go up.
No, just like every other contractor, their employees stop getting paid when the budget isn't there.
It's not a question of trickling down, we all know that doesn't work. It's a question of whether the economics continue to exist, trickle or not.
The US military isn’t going to shutter because a defense bill was delayed a few weeks.
But again you’re missing the point: we know for a fact that money being out directly into people’s hands stimulates the economy more than the alternative.
--------------------
|
|