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OfflineskOsH
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Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity
    #27099205 - 12/20/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What's the connection here? How can such massive time dilation happen just because someone is seeing visuals and in some kind of altered headspace? What is happening, chemically? And what does this mean? Does someone "trip" by seeing thousands of more "frames" / slices of time per second, which are not normally filtered out, hence why it takes "longer" for them to experience? Even on say, a microdose, this is noticeable. On a weed edible it* is noticeable.

Edit: spelling error


Edited by skOsH (12/20/20 11:42 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH]
    #27099283 - 12/20/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

great questions,

what is happening chemically is that some cerebral synapses are chemically encouraged to keep firing longer for each signal received.

relativity is not affected.

the sense of time passing however is completely disrupted.

normally signal pulse sequences that come into the cerebral cortex fade completely within 1/15th of a second. you can observe frame rate effects by slowing down a projector which usually shows 24 frames per second very smoothly, but at 15 frames per second there is a noticeable jerk between frames.

in this depiction the end of each signal occurs ~1/15th of a second and there is very little overlap:


however in this diagram if some signals fade more slowly then many new signals come in before the last ones are finished and the overlap creates layers or multiple - like trails, or enhanced color, intensified flavors, the apprehension of gravity building up etc.


when we are still where we were a few seconds ago and are also where we are right now, and both experiences are strongly present in mind, then there is a disruption in the sense of time passing.

one could as easily be going backwards or forwards in time, which could be stopped or somewhat sped up.

At first I was stymied about it, but this really seems to be the case - to such an extent that between the beginning of overlaid moments and the end of overlaid moments you could even have completely opposing thoughts, and the very clear sense of another person in your skin, possession, or entities etc. We bag out out consciousness over time when really stoned and the accumulated moments produce a plethora of side effects that can be very interesting.


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27100969 - 12/21/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Damn, that is an excellent answer. Now that I think about it, I can understand the overlaying of past, future, and present, especially with the projector analogy.

I don't know why i thought of relativity but being about time dilation, I wasn't sure...although Hofmann lived to be 102yo iirc, but that was probably him keeping his mind fresh

Fascinating thing, the brain.

I often wonder what true objective reality looks like. Everyone experiences it mostly the same. I'm not sure...but I am going to sleep with that explanation and hopefully dream up an epiphany.

The spatial distortion does seem to accompany the time dilation, that feels like it is the overlapping frames


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH] * 1
    #27101176 - 12/21/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I also like to think that as your brain reuses many old connections and fires up new connections, there are many previously unused branches of your brain firing simultaneously. So it feels to me like your brain power is enhanced, that your brain is working so fast, you therefore process so many more thoughts in a set period of time, that the consciousnesses perception is that time slows down.

I could be completely wrong, but that’s my thoughts after 35 years of tripping.

What is doesn’t explain is the spatial transcendence???

Mush love
DJ Ed


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH] * 1
    #27101881 - 12/22/20 12:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Your perception of reality shifts.

It's also the only perception of reality you're ever experiencing, so for all practical intents and purposes, you're changing reality as it's presented to your senses.

Relativity, ironically, becomes more relative at that level.

I can go on but I don't want to hog this thread :sunny:, unless asked for further info.


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27102255 - 12/22/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Great diagrams redgreenvines!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #27103618 - 12/23/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The diagrams have a squishy feel and even though I am suggesting different duration by different slants it does not work for everyone's perception.

here is one amazing thing i FOUND ON SALVIA which is a very strong short duration psychedelic:

if I slowly turn 360 in my swiveling office chair, with my eyes open, by the time I have come back to the same position, my mind is still filled with views of all the glanced directions, and these un-faded views gel as an experience of 360 degree vision all around me. It is an elated feeling to see the world alive in this way.

this highly corroborates but is not absolute conclusive proof of slower fading being the key to both temporal and spatial plasticity while using  psychedelics. combined with anecdotes of deja view, synchronicity, one moment lasting forever, multidimensional visions, it is highly corroborative.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27103631 - 12/23/20 07:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

here is one amazing thing i FOUND ON SALVIA which is a very strong short duration psychedelic:

if I slowly turn 360 in my swiveling office chair, with my eyes open, by the time I have come back to the same position, my mind is still filled with views of all the glanced directions, and these un-faded views gel as an experience of 360 degree vision all around me.




So Salvia could be used as a performance enchancer in war or where else 360 degree vision would be useful :yesnod:


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27103689 - 12/23/20 08:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

excellent psychedelic
excellent thing
we are a few that find it awesome and amazing and mind expanding in an enjoyable and sweet and benign way
it is very cheap
one could dilute the strongest or the second strongest with plain leaf
happy christmas all!
like we want it strong but not that strong safe so like maybe not smoke 80 x but it's not that expensive so one could get a lot of doses by mixing it
dose safe but I'm just saying it's a contriubting factor the economy of it
like weed


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27103694 - 12/23/20 08:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

even just dosing weed and salvia is a quite comprehensive personality change
of course I recommend meditating on lsd
or such
as long as possible
but I think moderation is important too


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Ferdinando] * 2
    #27103755 - 12/23/20 08:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

working with a suitable schedule is better than "as long as possible" with several great drugs.

(though I concur with your enthusiasm - realistically less is more)

the thing about discovering your own path, is finding what your body and mind do well, then managing not to mess that up, while chasing your goals.


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OfflineShakedown Street
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27103863 - 12/23/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Not sure the waves traveling in neurons can "pile up" the way your pictures show.  I would think it would depend on whether the wave
is transverse (like your flicking one end of a rope whose other end is tied to a post) or longitudinal (like sound waves you hear while you are listening to a speaker)  I don't think neurons transmit signals the same way.  I think they use neurotransmitters, which are organic molecules that travel the neuron once and then have to be retrieved from the destination end and reaccumulated at the source end in order to re-fire the neuron in the same direction.    But I could be wrong.  I am not a neurologist.

Maybe that's why the tripper's perceptions veer off in multiple directions seemingly at once, because neurons come into and out of her perception continuously, all the while her brain, which also runs on neurons, is continuously trying to make sense of it all?

Another thing I wonder about is why do you see colors/shapes that look like fractals?  I read Benoit Mandelbrot's book Fractals, Form, Chance, and Dimension.    In he explains fractals as mathematical relationships that are real numbers with decimal dimensions and not just regular polygonal shapes with integer dimensions (1-D, 2-D, 3-D) that better "fit" shapes in the real-world, such as you would see in a forest.    Fractal geometry has been used to create cell phone antennas
that work better than antennas made with regular polygonal shapes.    I am beginning to think they also have something to do with the way neurons work.    Fractals have something to do with our percepts, I think.    I do think fractals have an inherent property in the consciousness of living organisms which science has yet to unravel.


Edited by Shakedown Street (12/23/20 10:16 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Shakedown Street]
    #27104086 - 12/23/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

when a neuron transmits a signal it is usually a series of pulses - not a single shot.
at the synapse, neurotransmitters pour from 'axon' to 'dendrite' or cell body in a structure referred to as a synapse.

some synapses are quantized, and will not cause a neuronal response unless a full shot of transmitter is received, other synapses become more sensitive each time they receive a new series of pulses and can cause the whole neuron to fire even when the amount of transmitter is sub threshold. These are involved in learning, i.e. training by repetition.

when neurons are activated in the cortex, electrical fields extend from them and propagate like the waves on a pond, producing interference patterns that are used in feedback linkages within engrams.

yes chemical transmitters are a big part of the system, but so is the aggregate of electrical field events, and those field events last longer (fade more slowly) while the brain is on psychedelics.


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Offlinejgotti
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH] * 1
    #27104591 - 12/23/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know what happens at the neuronal level, but at a high level, when you are tripping your brain is able to process information at a much greater rate than normal. Just as a rough example (I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air), you are able to process 10 minutes worth of information in 1 minute, which tricks your brain into believing 10 minutes have passed, when in reality only 1 minute has passed.

By the way, it has been shown that older people perceive time as passing more quickly than in younger people. It's similar to the above, in that it relates to how much information your brain is able to process in a given period of time. Here's an article that explains it:

Physics explains why time passes faster as you age.

https://qz.com/1516804/physics-explains-why-time-passes-faster-as-you-age/#:~:text=In%20human%20infants%2C%20those%20fixation,to%20be%20passing%20more%20slowly.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH]
    #27104935 - 12/23/20 09:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skOsH said:
What's the connection here? How can such massive time dilation happen just because someone is seeing visuals and in some kind of altered headspace? What is happening, chemically? And what does this mean? Does someone "trip" by seeing thousands of more "frames" / slices of time per second, which are not normally filtered out, hence why it takes "longer" for them to experience? Even on say, a microdose, this is noticeable. On a weed edible it* is noticeable.

Edit: spelling error




Interesting explanations but after a very large number of trips, some decent % of them at the "optimistic" dosage choice (well what could possibly go wrong?) and experiencing all manner of strange time effects from the mundane (feelings of accelerated thought process made manifest by monitoring against clock time, being unable to read a clock or figure out what it's actually for) to the inexplicable (seeing a clock running backwards, time slowing down around about 100 fold where the seconds seem like minutes, time coming apart altogether and being reassembled out of order) to the well-beyond-inexplicable (dissolving into parallel time streams and solving problems almost instantaneously through what feels like amplified intution, the so-called superposition states where multiple timelines are accessible, being aware of all of time as if standing outside it altogether) I have a different explanation, but like Deep Thought said, you're not going to like it. :laugh2:

If you allow that humans, most animals as well, would find it advantageous to not experience the full branching of a Wheeler-style multiverse all at once (imaging tripping and being consumed by predators, for instance - not going to do that again are you?), then the existence in the brain (perhaps in the ordinary operation of consciousness itself) of a "multiverse collapser" would not be surprising.  But it would perhaps indicate that the way in which we ordinarily perceive reality via consciousness may be fundamentally flawed.  And since psychedelics seem to suppress the operation of such a collapser to various degrees depending on dosage, delivering instead the underlying multiplicity usually hidden, perhaps these sorts of effects are all part of viewing directly that multiverse, at least in some aspect.

IME it's an explanation that seems to fit all sizes, and it makes predictions as well that can be tested.  :snoopyes:


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OfflineShakedown Street
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27104972 - 12/23/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Think of it in more down-to-Earth terms.  Imagine a guy suffering from covid19 coronavirus.    He is in bad shape, with the lung-eating virus removing his ability to breathe, so the E.R doctor decides to put him on a ventilator.    To do that, he first has to put the patient into a medically-induced coma so he can psychologically survive being trapped in a dark bubble with a machine that mechanically forces air into and out of his lungs.    In a coma, he can still hear the sound of the machinery and maybe of a person directly speaking to him.  But his brain is in a deep-sleep-like state.    His brain is in a very, very slow state that no longer processes the stimuli he experiences, just as you are when you turn off  all the lights, kill your cellphone, and shut your door to keep sounds out until you  drift off into a deep, deep sleep.    Only this coma goes for weeks or months of clock time.  And he cannot react to stimuli.


Edited by Shakedown Street (12/23/20 10:30 PM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27105077 - 12/24/20 12:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
working with a suitable schedule is better than "as long as possible" with several great drugs.

(though I concur with your enthusiasm - realistically less is more)

the thing about discovering your own path, is finding what your body and mind do well, then managing not to mess that up, while chasing your goals.




Well said right here, redgreenvines! :kenthumbup:


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27105165 - 12/24/20 02:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

yes, nice post, thx redgreenvines


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #27105531 - 12/24/20 09:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

thanky!


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OfflineLittleBoard
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: skOsH]
    #27107085 - 12/25/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't had high dose trips beyond 3g or 200ug but to me it seems that I think a lot in a much shorter time frame and that this simply leads to the illusion that a lot of time has passed when it has not.

It is the number of thoughts I would have if I sat down for an entire day and did nothing but freely associate from topic a to topic b to z and then in the evening I would call it a day and sleep. On psychedelics this happens in 3 to 6 hours. There may be another mechanism of action that simply changes the perception of time directly but that is how it feels to me.


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OnlineNorthernerM
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: jgotti]
    #27107630 - 12/25/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jgotti said:
I don't know what happens at the neuronal level, but at a high level, when you are tripping your brain is able to process information at a much greater rate than normal. Just as a rough example (I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air), you are able to process 10 minutes worth of information in 1 minute, which tricks your brain into believing 10 minutes have passed, when in reality only 1 minute has passed.

By the way, it has been shown that older people perceive time as passing more quickly than in younger people. It's similar to the above, in that it relates to how much information your brain is able to process in a given period of time. Here's an article that explains it:

Physics explains why time passes faster as you age.

https://qz.com/1516804/physics-explains-why-time-passes-faster-as-you-age/#:~:text=In%20human%20infants%2C%20those%20fixation,to%20be%20passing%20more%20slowly.



This is always what I had assumed, thanks for the link science up my assumptions man.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #27111935 - 12/28/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Trying not to get too far from the question in OP that was wanting more of a scientific answer I do want to bring up the point made early in Jim DeKorne’s book ‘Psychedelic Shamanism’ maybe entering a fourth dimension via a 90 degree turn that cannot physically happen in 3D space has to occurs inside the mind and time is interconnected in this.

I find it fascinating that in the Mixtec Mushroom Codex there is a symbol for “bemushroomed time” this special time expansion is necessary to enter the portal into the spirit world.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Northerner]
    #27113322 - 12/29/20 12:24 AM (3 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

jgotti said:
I don't know what happens at the neuronal level, but at a high level, when you are tripping your brain is able to process information at a much greater rate than normal. Just as a rough example (I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air), you are able to process 10 minutes worth of information in 1 minute, which tricks your brain into believing 10 minutes have passed, when in reality only 1 minute has passed.

By the way, it has been shown that older people perceive time as passing more quickly than in younger people. It's similar to the above, in that it relates to how much information your brain is able to process in a given period of time. Here's an article that explains it:

Physics explains why time passes faster as you age.

https://qz.com/1516804/physics-explains-why-time-passes-faster-as-you-age/#:~:text=In%20human%20infants%2C%20those%20fixation,to%20be%20passing%20more%20slowly.



This is always what I had assumed, thanks for the link science up my assumptions man.  :thumbup:




I've always just assumed that each year means a smaller percentage relative to your age, so it's a "smaller slice", relatively speaking, and appears to pass quicker than slices of the same linear time frame.

Example: 1 year as a 5 year old is literally 1/5, or 20% of your existence, so a year feels like forever.

When you're 35 years old, that same span of time is only 1/35 (2.86% rounding up) of your existence, and thus, as Smash Mouth so wisely proclaimed, "The years start coming and they don't stop coming", lol.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27113378 - 12/29/20 01:44 AM (3 years, 30 days ago)

Just some thoughts:

The light from objects further away from you takes longer to get to you than from objects closer to you. The further you look, the further you go back in history since objects further away are older than ones closer to you. So when objects appear to be moving further away from you while you are on psychedelics, are you looking into the past? What would happen if the speed of light was slowed down so you could see it in slow motion?

While on psychedelics, your brain is more perceptive to the flow of data from the universe. It's basically like overclocking a cpu but only to a much greater extent. You are basically seeing and experiencing things how they actually are without the normal slow human filter. You're not "hallucinating" you're just becoming more perceptive to what's really there when you allow your brain to be more receptive of more data.

Time dilation. I don't believe that time actually exists. It's just a human concept. We live in a finite, not linear, universe. How is it that when I'm on a psychedelic, my perception of time completely slows down to a standstill as if I'm a planet slowly revolving around the sun? Sometimes I feel like I'm in space. So I think the psychedelic gets us in touch with outer space.

Relativity/quantum physics. Why do we feel like our consciousness is in different places at the same time while on psychedelics? Why do we feel as though we are the universe and we are everything and all? Why do we feel an interconnectedness to nature and the universe? Because of quantum physics. Every electron is in different places at the same time. WE are in different places at the same time, we are made of probability blobs. People who take higher doses of psychedelics "become" the universe.

Anyway, just some interesting things I think about.


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Re: Psychedelics, time dilation, and relativity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27114429 - 12/29/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
working with a suitable schedule is better than "as long as possible" with several great drugs.

(though I concur with your enthusiasm - realistically less is more)

the thing about discovering your own path, is finding what your body and mind do well, then managing not to mess that up, while chasing your goals.




This speaks to me and although I’m already there for anyone that’s not don’t  overlook this or you’ll end up learning it the hard way safe tripping  :bow2:


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