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OfflineOuterbass
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McKenna on Novelty
    #27098290 - 12/19/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I am still fairly new to McKenna, and of course his subject matter is very wide, but I have heard him talk about a theory of his he calls novelty.

I created my own definition of novelty in a different context many years ago, and have never heard anyone else really talking about.

His view seems to toward physics phenomena, mine was sociological.

I am struggling to figure out what he meant because I have only come across a few offhand references buried in the many videos we have.

Does anyone have a summary or more complete explanation of what he was talking about? Thanks


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Outerbass] * 1
    #27098395 - 12/19/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

(It’s TM Time)

Nature is a novelty generator.  It builds upon previous orders with exponential increase in complexity which in effect churns out novelty.

:tmckenna:  :tmckenna:  :tmckenna:

Genius right ?


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OfflineOuterbass
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27098495 - 12/19/20 10:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I'm stuck on what he means by novelty.

The theory is that (from economics) homogenous products are highly elastic price wise, and price takers, which is a position of weakness. Heterogenous products are hard to substitute, and are price searchers, and have an advantage.

I noticed eventually all throughout culture people tend to try to create novelties for themselves, to become novel, in order to advance in the hierarchy. Homogenous people tend to fall down to the bottom.

McKenna himself went to extraordinary lengths to make himself novel.

He is talking about the physical world, and that is I think a much broader subject, that requires a lot of work to define and explain.


Edited by Outerbass (12/20/20 12:44 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098534 - 12/19/20 11:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

McKenna was a crackpot who suggested telekinesis with space things.

Most of his shit is wack.

His stoned ape theory was the one idea that stuck.

Fundamentally it makes sense, it's a simple idea, an intriguing one.

His view was that psilocybin catalyzed the revolution of contemporary perpetuity.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27098671 - 12/20/20 02:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The existential experience is always novel..

The chaos is the uncertainty in the changes.. from one experience to another.. The differences displayed.. like wind moving branches..

The idea of habit is perfectly conserved in time..

What is it that is explaining all this?

The existential dilema is of course to know what is yours and what is your identity..

The philosophy of choice is true.. amongst all the things in Eden.

I am Adam Kadmon.. come to me.. what's more?

The great white lodge teaches the stillness of things..

While the black shows difference, space and movement.. Binah rad arculum..


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27098685 - 12/20/20 02:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

The fuk?

Righto McKenna.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Outerbass]
    #27098769 - 12/20/20 05:08 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

:tmckenna:


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27098812 - 12/20/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Outerbass]
    #27100466 - 12/21/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Outerbass said:
I noticed eventually all throughout culture people tend to try to create novelties for themselves, to become novel, in order to advance in the hierarchy. Homogenous people tend to fall down to the bottom.





I’d say the homogenous are playing the safer bet.  With the established one is always safe. :cool:

Unless society crumbles.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27105129 - 12/24/20 01:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
McKenna was a crackpot who suggested telekinesis with space things.

Most of his shit is wack.





"....Once estimated at 200 billion, the number of known galaxies is now believed to be 2 trillion. ...."

.  So I would say the universe is more characterized by repetition than novelty. But it's complex enough that there is also some novelty.
.  Trillions of galaxies all made from about only a hundred elements, a few forces, maybe 40 to 100 types of elementary particles.
.  Seems most life on earth is bacteria, plankton, and insects like ants and beetles, basically the tiny stuff.
.  I doubt psychedelics caused the evolution of larger brains in humans, but many trippers love these sorts of silly pipe dreams, that seem to make them feel privy to esoteric knowledge, especially if if they feel a need for justification.
.  Generally speaking primate brains were gradually getting bigger for millions of years (in relation to body size).
.  Getting a large head thru a female pelvis at birth seems, along with infant vulnerability, to have set a limit on human brain size.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27105172 - 12/24/20 02:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I doubt psychedelics directly caused the evolution of larger brains.

I'd suggest they altered our ancestors interactions with environmental ques, along with further developments of interpersonal behaviours.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27105174 - 12/24/20 02:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It actually makes more sense that ET's came and sped up monkey DNA, and are the custodians of our species, than it does a single plant kickstarting the neo cortex evolution IMHO.

William Bramley has a book called Gods of Eden that is absolutely worth checking out.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27106011 - 12/24/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I doubt psychedelics directly caused the evolution of larger brains.

I'd suggest they altered our ancestors interactions with environmental ques, along with further developments of interpersonal behaviours.




.  Also human aren't as smart as they think they are. Just look at the shape the planet is in. Also folks that trip, very often keep doing so, as the effects don't last, as the forums here show. Also true deep enlightenment is not the fate of the vast majority of humans.
.  So in summary we aren't that great, and psychedelics even after thousands of years haven't really wised us up. And there are big differences in intelligence among humans - over half are on the wrong side of the bell curve. Really we don't stack up very well, as thousands of years of continuous war & torture make obvious to anyone giving the matter a little objective thought.
.  But the Jewish religion is not alone in trying to convince us we are "the chosen ones", and wonderful. Every group (that thinks its an "in group") indulges in the same egotistic nonsense. Men, whites, etc. you name it, they're special.


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27106337 - 12/24/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well psychedelics are basically illegal so there’s that.  People think they are smarter than they really are usually do to egotistical causes.  Psychedelics incidentally dissolve ego. 

In summary the state can go fuck itself.  At least in regards to the war on psychedelic substances.

But of course it won’t because it is the state and will itself be doing the fucking.

Therefore there is a misunderstanding.  Society is a misunderstanding.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27107594 - 12/25/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe human society simply isn't that different from some other animal societies,
especially ants, which also fight wars, with other ant societies;
and chimps which occasionally indulge in genocide, of other chimp troops.

Perhaps its just us guys, that have the illusion that things could be better.
But, it seems that, ... what is, ... simply is.

.  To expect a few plant (or fungi) biochemicals to change this, seems to be a case of hoping for too much, from them. Our big brains are not particularly well balanced between emotion, instinct and reason after millions of years of evolution. They are just an unfinished experiment, that still has a lot of bugs, (if you don't mind my mixing metaphors).
.  At present it seems the lack of balance, may very well lead to an unexpectedly short experiment, before the species terminates itself in just another species extinction, like the very unbalanced Irish Elk did, with its over large, unbalanced, antlers.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Irish+elk&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27108146 - 12/26/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

sudly said:
I doubt psychedelics directly caused the evolution of larger brains.

I'd suggest they altered our ancestors interactions with environmental ques, along with further developments of interpersonal behaviours.




.  Also human aren't as smart as they think they are. Just look at the shape the planet is in. Also folks that trip, very often keep doing so, as the effects don't last, as the forums here show. Also true deep enlightenment is not the fate of the vast majority of humans.
.  So in summary we aren't that great, and psychedelics even after thousands of years haven't really wised us up. And there are big differences in intelligence among humans - over half are on the wrong side of the bell curve. Really we don't stack up very well, as thousands of years of continuous war & torture make obvious to anyone giving the matter a little objective thought.
.  But the Jewish religion is not alone in trying to convince us we are "the chosen ones", and wonderful. Every group (that thinks its an "in group") indulges in the same egotistic nonsense. Men, whites, etc. you name it, they're special.




Have you ever had a good day and remembered it years later? Or learnt to ride a bike and not forgotten it?

Are we our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago?



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27108170 - 12/26/20 01:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well psychedelics are basically illegal so there’s that.  People think they are smarter than they really are usually do to egotistical causes.  Psychedelics incidentally dissolve ego. 

In summary the state can go fuck itself.  At least in regards to the war on psychedelic substances.

But of course it won’t because it is the state and will itself be doing the fucking.

Therefore there is a misunderstanding.  Society is a misunderstanding.




Correct on ego dissolution and the state can go fuck itself.

Here's the kicker: I genuinely think most people don't want to dissolve ego because it's all they have/know/relate to themselves AS.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #27108233 - 12/26/20 04:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

dissolving ego has not been a primary goal of mine, being in touch with the moment has been and is.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27108235 - 12/26/20 04:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think to chase ego dissolution is a symptom of ego sabotage, myself.

As you said, let it be what it is, because ultimately, that's what it actually is, lol :sunny::bongload::levitate:


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27108297 - 12/26/20 06:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

don't have something to do with mckenna
they detract like bad like (a) weed
it should not exist
if only


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with our love with our love we could save the world


Edited by Ferdinando (12/26/20 07:38 AM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27109405 - 12/26/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It’s kind of odd to consider that pursuing a psychedelic ego dissolving experience is desired.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27109709 - 12/26/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

DXM gives good ego release..

It disassociates the subjective ego completely and puts you in a state of perfect objectivity.

Bliss..


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27111258 - 12/27/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Are we our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago?





basically yes
still waring, fucking, shitting, torturing, shortsighted, selfish.

Animals don't need police, prisons, and so on, to control themselves, or birth control that  still can't control their populations, and generally are not so stupid as to shit in their own drinking water, and pollute all of their living space.
Or so arrogant as to forget and ignore these obvious facts.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27111300 - 12/27/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Haven't changed an inch in 2.5 million years??

Do that thing called reflection and get back to me if you don't mind :tongue2:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27111521 - 12/28/20 12:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Are we our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago?





basically yes
still waring, fucking, shitting, torturing, shortsighted, selfish.

Animals don't need police, prisons, and so on, to control themselves, or birth control that  still can't control their populations, and generally are not so stupid as to shit in their own drinking water, and pollute all of their living space.
Or so arrogant as to forget and ignore these obvious facts.




The problem with this argument, though, is if we were living by law of the jungle like the animals, the weakest and least-productive would be killed off immediately. I don't think people take this into consideration, and if they do, they're either fooling themselves pretending to be humanists, or they're actually more rational than they let on for the sake of political correctness (my hunch, honestly).

Modern society subsidizes the weak/unproductive (actually, more like the middle class is fooled into thinking the poor are robbing them, so the elite can funnel money and power UP, but that's another thread LOL). This is not a moral or political or socioeconomic argument, it's an objective difference based concrete social variables in contrast to your analogy above. For all of the correct reasons you argue from, there are an equal number of even more fucked up scenarios we're barely avoiding as is, and that's not an argument for the current system at all.

Just context because while agree with you, it's not as straight forward as what you're positing here.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27111731 - 12/28/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

weakness is a contextual description:
in some contexts slender, light, small, clever all add up to dexterity, and elusiveness, and that combo is a huge adaptive advantage in the jungle and here, over strength, size, brutality etc.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27112234 - 12/28/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Are we our ancestors from 2.5 million years ago?





basically yes
still waring, fucking, shitting, torturing, shortsighted, selfish.

Animals don't need police, prisons, and so on, to control themselves, or birth control that  still can't control their populations, and generally are not so stupid as to shit in their own drinking water, and pollute all of their living space.
Or so arrogant as to forget and ignore these obvious facts.




The problem with this argument, though, is if we were living by law of the jungle like the animals, the weakest and least-productive would be killed off immediately. I don't think people take this into consideration, and if they do, they're either fooling themselves pretending to be humanists, or they're actually more rational than they let on for the sake of political correctness (my hunch, honestly).

Modern society subsidizes the weak/unproductive (actually, more like the middle class is fooled into thinking the poor are robbing them, so the elite can funnel money and power UP, but that's another thread LOL). This is not a moral or political or socioeconomic argument, it's an objective difference based concrete social variables in contrast to your analogy above. For all of the correct reasons you argue from, there are an equal number of even more fucked up scenarios we're barely avoiding as is, and that's not an argument for the current system at all.

Just context because while agree with you, it's not as straight forward as what you're positing here.




.  To put it all in context, initially i commented on the idea (earlier in the thread) that:

"His stoned ape theory was the one idea that stuck.
Fundamentally it makes sense, it's a simple idea, an intriguing one.
His view was that psilocybin catalyzed the revolution of contemporary perpetuity."

.  I ridiculed this nonsense, which one poster continued to defend, becoming more and more defensive while making posts with less and less meaningful content.

.  You bring up some other problems of modern society. I see no conflict.
.  Humans remain a rather lopsided and unproven experiment of evolution. Many species from dinosaurs to cockroaches to sharks have, or had, far better track records (time wise) than humans and their relations have had, or do, (or are likely to have in the future given their many follies); and there is no evidence that psychedelics furthered our evolution or are are likely to do so in the future.
.  Whereas there is much evidence for other factors that have influenced human evolution, which by the way have resulted in many obvious flaws; which these books point out, among other such books.

Idiot Brain: What Your Head Is Really Up To

https://www.amazon.com/Idiot-Brain-What-Your-Really/dp/0393253783/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1609184273&sr=1-1

the author is a scientist
"Dean Burnett is a neuroscientist and research associate at the Centre for Medical Education at Cardiff University."

Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Errors-Panorama-Glitches-Pointless/dp/1328974693/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1609184234&sr=1-1

the author is a scientist
NATHAN H. LENTS is a professor of biology at John Jay College, CUNY and the author of Not So Different: Finding Human Nature in Animals. He has appeared as a scientific expert in a range of national media, including...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27112279 - 12/28/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

let us not blame the mushrooms for all of our science!


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27112298 - 12/28/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

and visa versa
let us not blame the science for all of our mushrooms!
Or the mushrooms for all of our continual follies.


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27112323 - 12/28/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Science therefore is egotistical being as the mushrooms dissolve ego and are not credited with man’s interesting evolutionary trajectory


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27112484 - 12/28/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

those sneaky mushrooms rule in hyphae space!


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27112646 - 12/28/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

They really do.  They subtract calculation and language in some way where the here and now becomes more prominent.  Naturally planning and strategizing fall by the way side and a nice immediacy overtakes.  Here is the shroom and it’s lair !  :mushroom2:

Yet the question is if or how the introduction of such an effect would have on a human being.  I have no idea.  Especially if you’re talking about homo erectus or Neanderthal etc.  That’s right, tell me what effect the psychedelic shrooms would have on homo erectus?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: laughingdog]
    #27112789 - 12/28/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Cut all mention of mushrooms.

Do you think any changes of behaviour were involved in the developments of society?


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: sudly]
    #27112806 - 12/28/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Do you think any changes of behaviour were involved in the developments of society?




Of course.  With certainty


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OfflineGoatrance
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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #27113059 - 12/28/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

When you touch something not experienced before, you get that novelty feeling. It can be wrong, it can be right, it can be whatever but it will be novelty which will twist your brains to the level of experiment. Too much of novelty will make you mumbo jumbo but not too much will make your life more rich in everything.


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: Goatrance]
    #27113320 - 12/29/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 30 days ago)

The science of mushrooms..

One thing of many that furthered our evolution..

Is the first mushroom user worth nothing.. I highly doubt it!


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Re: McKenna on Novelty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27113330 - 12/29/20 12:28 AM (3 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
weakness is a contextual description:
in some contexts slender, light, small, clever all add up to dexterity, and elusiveness, and that combo is a huge adaptive advantage in the jungle and here, over strength, size, brutality etc.




Right, which is going to depend entirely upon cultural context, not arguing that point.

Once that context has been achieved, my initial post still stands, regardless of the culture.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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