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OfflineJosborne
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What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks?
    #27097588 - 12/19/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I've been doing no soak/no boils for WBS and Milet spawn bags. I haven't inoculated yet so I can't speak to performance but they look pretty much similar to when I've soaked/boiled/dried grains.

What exactly are the disadvantages of this kind of tek? Higher contam rates? Worse performance?


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Josborne]
    #27097599 - 12/19/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

There's no problem, people do it all of the time. I have some no prep millet tubs running right now. The larger grains like wheat, rye, and oats don't do as well with no prep. Millet, birdseed, any small grain works well with no prep. I'm not saying that it's impossible with larger grains there just seems to be more to it than seed.


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Josborne] * 2
    #27097611 - 12/19/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Took me a while to get a feel for what happens to larger grains in no-prep. Take wheat for instance... it has a hard time taking up water unless it is pretty warm, like above 150f. If you don't get the water to be absorbed by the kernel before you start PC'ing it, there will be loose water that turns grains to mush. Smaller grains can take up water easier and faster.


--------------------
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Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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OfflineJosborne
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: tedoro]
    #27097620 - 12/19/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That makes sense. My no prep oats spawn bags didnt look as good as the WBS and Millet. Is the main issue with mush/bursted grains that it is more vulnerable to contamination?


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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Josborne]
    #27097629 - 12/19/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I really don't think the larger grains should be used for no prep. The problem with larger grains is as mentioned above, good luck hydrating the entire kernel. If there is insufficient hydration it will not sterilize completely.


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Offline99.99
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Josborne] * 1
    #27097631 - 12/19/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Nobody does it like me
1 cup wheat
1 cup water
1cup vermiculite

Cook in mushroom grow bags for an hour and a half 15 psi ,let cool and inoculate in front of flowhood
After bags are fully colonized i put in greenhouse
enjoy mushrooms

No grain prep no soaking no extra steps other than what I’ve said

Close bags up like this before you cook and leave them like this to colonize


My martha set up
Light on 24/7
80°
Humidity on for 15 minutes off for 1/2 hour



Some of my all wheat grows















</font>


Edited by 99.99 (12/19/20 12:19 PM)


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Offlineturtlesonturtles
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: 99.99]
    #27103820 - 12/23/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

When I mix 55% rye and 45% water in my spawn bags and let them sit for 12-24 hours before PCing, what happens is they take 3-4-5 times as long to colonize compared to when I soak, boil, dry for 30 mins and then load into bags before PCing.

Would love to save that time. Gonna try with millet.


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Offline99.99
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: turtlesonturtles]
    #27103894 - 12/23/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

turtlesonturtles said:
When I mix 55% rye and 45% water in my spawn bags and let them sit for 12-24 hours before PCing, what happens is they take 3-4-5 times as long to colonize compared to when I soak, boil, dry for 30 mins and then load into bags before PCing.

Would love to save that time. Gonna try with millet.





WOW  my golden teacher Colonize 100% in 7 days with one shake


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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: 99.99] * 1
    #27104245 - 12/23/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

7 days with LC or agar?


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Offlinebw86
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27104284 - 12/23/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

@99.99 how many cups is that first bag ? How many of those bags do you PC at once? I would imagine you cant stack bags when doing no soak grains?


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Offline99.99
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27104325 - 12/23/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

7 days with one agar dish cut up into very small pcs so its almost LC


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Offline99.99
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: 99.99]
    #27104328 - 12/23/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bw86 said:
@99.99 how many cups is that first bag ? How many of those bags do you PC at once? I would imagine you cant stack bags when doing no soak grains?




Cyan bags

I can do 14 of these
2 cups wheat
2 cups water
2 cups  vermiculite

7 on bottom 7 on top
2 1/2 hours 18 psi



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Offlinebw86
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: 99.99]
    #27104424 - 12/23/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

2 cups is like a quart. So thats a 2 quart bag your showing us and those blocks? They looks huge.


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Offline99.99
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: bw86]
    #27104432 - 12/23/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Whatever you do whatever size bag you use just increase in 1 cup increments ...And I do layer bags inside the PC


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Offlineturtlesonturtles
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: 99.99]
    #27106887 - 12/25/20 04:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My 1,5kg (roughly 4 quarts) rye bags take 2-3 weeks to colonize 100% when using 1 plate of agar - given that I’ve soaked/boiled/dried the rye before PCing.


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Offlinemad_dingo
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27108256 - 12/26/20 04:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
There's no problem, people do it all of the time. I have some no prep millet tubs running right now. The larger grains like wheat, rye, and oats don't do as well with no prep. Millet, birdseed, any small grain works well with no prep. I'm not saying that it's impossible with larger grains there just seems to be more to it than seed.




Just recently i tried to find a proper no-soak, no-boil tek for rye on this site and failed. The one i found was years old and contained glaring errors in the water content calculation. So I developed one myself. I started with a target water content and after a tiny bit of algebra arrived at (F-a)/(1-F) as the ratio of water to add per dry grain. 'F' is target water content (e.g. 0.51), 'a' is the water content of the grain from the bag (e.g. 0.14).

So for 51% wetness per 100g dry rye i add 75.5g of water to the jar, plus another 10g per jar to compensate for water loss during the PC cycle. YMMV

It also turns out gypsum is quite necessary otherwise clumps won't break after PCing. So i add about 5g  per 100g rye.

It always looks like shit straight out of the cooker, clumpy and unevenly hydrated, but after a day and a few hearty shakes to break up clumps, it's perfect and works as good or better than the classic soak+boil recipe -- which incidently yielded 49% water content for me.

My point here is that eyeballing the added water amount likely will turn out to be too dry and thus colonize slowly.


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: mad_dingo] * 1
    #27108834 - 12/26/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mad_dingo said:
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
There's no problem, people do it all of the time. I have some no prep millet tubs running right now. The larger grains like wheat, rye, and oats don't do as well with no prep. Millet, birdseed, any small grain works well with no prep. I'm not saying that it's impossible with larger grains there just seems to be more to it than seed.




Just recently i tried to find a proper no-soak, no-boil tek for rye on this site and failed. The one i found was years old and contained glaring errors in the water content calculation. So I developed one myself. I started with a target water content and after a tiny bit of algebra arrived at (F-a)/(1-F) as the ratio of water to add per dry grain. 'F' is target water content (e.g. 0.51), 'a' is the water content of the grain from the bag (e.g. 0.14).

So for 51% wetness per 100g dry rye i add 75.5g of water to the jar, plus another 10g per jar to compensate for water loss during the PC cycle. YMMV

It also turns out gypsum is quite necessary otherwise clumps won't break after PCing. So i add about 5g  per 100g rye.

It always looks like shit straight out of the cooker, clumpy and unevenly hydrated, but after a day and a few hearty shakes to break up clumps, it's perfect and works as good or better than the classic soak+boil recipe -- which incidently yielded 49% water content for me.

My point here is that eyeballing the added water amount likely will turn out to be too dry and thus colonize slowly.




Also note: two types of water content numbers are bounced around here. One that counts the water in dry grains, and one that doesn't. I count the water in dry wheat. Its never varied more than 1%, hovering at 10%. Thats a notable amount of water.

You have entered my world, or I've entered yours... I've been dreaming of a no-prep for wheat for over a year. My main reason is I'm lazy. But a close second reason is complete control of the amount of hydration. I too could get stable water percentages if my time boiling was carefully noted... but it was tedious.

Trying to eliminate a huge mass of clumpy starch... My current method is to add boiling water to dry berries... immediately seal bag and load into the PC. Lid on, but only at 200f for 3.5 hours. All the water absorbs, but doesn't cook to mash. Then the PC is brought up to 250f for 2.5 hours. The berries are loose and un-clumped, which I find important.

Noc'ed with an LI syringe. Boom. I do two runs in a day. 50% water content (including dry wheat berry water) Not advocating this method, but I own no flow hood and hate filling my building up with the smell of steaming berries. So this has become my way.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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OfflineTattersail
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: bw86]
    #27108934 - 12/26/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bw86 said:
2 cups is like a quart. So thats a 2 quart bag your showing us and those blocks? They looks huge.




My knowledge of US measurements isn't great, but isn't a quart 4 cups?


--------------------
LAGM2021
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We may lose or we may win, but we'll never be here again


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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: Tattersail]
    #27109002 - 12/26/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

4 cups is 1 quart.


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Offlinemad_dingo
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: tedoro]
    #27109389 - 12/26/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tedoro said:
Quote:

mad_dingo said:
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
There's no problem, people do it all of the time. I have some no prep millet tubs running right now. The larger grains like wheat, rye, and oats don't do as well with no prep. Millet, birdseed, any small grain works well with no prep. I'm not saying that it's impossible with larger grains there just seems to be more to it than seed.




Just recently i tried to find a proper no-soak, no-boil tek for rye on this site and failed. The one i found was years old and contained glaring errors in the water content calculation. So I developed one myself. I started with a target water content and after a tiny bit of algebra arrived at (F-a)/(1-F) as the ratio of water to add per dry grain. 'F' is target water content (e.g. 0.51), 'a' is the water content of the grain from the bag (e.g. 0.14).

So for 51% wetness per 100g dry rye i add 75.5g of water to the jar, plus another 10g per jar to compensate for water loss during the PC cycle. YMMV

It also turns out gypsum is quite necessary otherwise clumps won't break after PCing. So i add about 5g  per 100g rye.







Trying to eliminate a huge mass of clumpy starch... My current method is to add boiling water to dry berries... immediately seal bag and load into the PC. Lid on, but only at 200f for 3.5 hours. All the water absorbs, but doesn't cook to mash. Then the PC is brought up to 250f for 2.5 hours. The berries are loose and un-clumped, which I find important.





Ok. Sounds elaborate. I personally wouldn't dare to pour boiling water into my cheap glas jars (at least one is bound to shatter!), but interesting non the less that this works. As far as i can tell though, the clumping is not due to burst kernels. I get fewer (basically none) from my nsns method than from the classical soak+simmer way. I guess there is always enough soluble starch in the grains to make them stick if cooked quickly in the PC. Again interesting that your way of doing it (basically simmering the stuff in the PC for 3.5h) avoids this. Do you use any gypsum or chalk at all?


Edited by mad_dingo (12/26/20 05:32 PM)


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: What's Wrong With Doing No Soak/No Boil Grain Teks? [Re: mad_dingo]
    #27110697 - 12/27/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ok. Sounds elaborate. I personally wouldn't dare to pour boiling water into my cheap glas jars (at least one is bound to shatter!), but interesting non the less that this works. As far as i can tell though, the clumping is not due to burst kernels. I get fewer (basically none) from my nsns method than from the classical soak+simmer way. I guess there is always enough soluble starch in the grains to make them stick if cooked quickly in the PC. Again interesting that your way of doing it (basically simmering the stuff in the PC for 3.5h) avoids this. Do you use any gypsum or chalk at all?





It sounds elaborate, but in actuality, its the simplest prep I've done to date. Load it and turns some knobs once in a while. The worst starch mess seems to be from wetness external on the grains upon PC'ing. Grains sitting in water can only take in so much water before they turn to soup. And with careful inspection, sometimes you will notice that the clumpy mess it at the top of the bag. That is water, turning to steam, rising, messing with the grains on the top. We choose grains that have the characteristic of remaining mixable even when hydrated and sterilized... but even these grains have their limits. I am surprised that the drying part really isn't needed. You get the hydration right and the grains are perfect.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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