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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27075307 - 12/06/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well probably never know if he was in on Moshen Fakhrizadeh.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27075337 - 12/06/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Assassinating Soleimani was a dangerous escalation. Trump was either too stupid to know that, or too incompetent to stop it.



I agree that was a very bad move.  As I previously said, "I criticized him for this, but at least it didn't start a war."



Trump may or may not have intended to start a war with that move, but it seems that he had no way of knowing for sure that it wouldn't.

If Trump did not intend war, we could speculate that he gambled that Iran's military bluster would be lacking in the chaos caused by Soleimani's absence, and this educated guess paid off.

More cynically, if it was the case that Trump did intend war but failed, it's worth noting that a war could conceivably have improved his re-election chances on the "don't change horses in midstream" principle.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #27075361 - 12/06/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Assassinating Soleimani was a dangerous escalation. Trump was either too stupid to know that, or too incompetent to stop it.



I agree that was a very bad move.  As I previously said, "I criticized him for this, but at least it didn't start a war."




Okay but just because you acknowledged it was a bad move doesn’t excuse the move.

Regardless, not starting a new war doesn’t mean he’s against the MIC. The MIC does things like overthrow a democratically elected government in Bolivia, in order to install a right wing government willing to hand over mineral rights to their huge supply of lithium. Do you think Trump was unaware of that plot? Or opposed it?

Trump is absolutely the type of guy to think the entire modus operandi of the MIC is cool and good. Any small attempts he’s made to seemingly blunt the goals of the MIC are either because of his own ego (I brought peace to Korea, ME!), some petty grievance with the intelligence community, or because he wants the troops to like him. He’s done nothing to slow the MIC, he’s accelerated it. Ramps up trade war with China, sanctions Russia, rips up Iran Deal and kills some of their people, completely caves to the Likkud in Israel, orchestrates a military coup d’etat in a socialist nation in South America. I mean god damn what else can he do that’s pro MIC?

About the only thing he’s done is bring up the absolute sham of reasoning for the existence of NATO, but, again, he’s only doing that because he doesn’t understand the beneficial relationship of using our military might to have leverage over Western Europe. He read an article about it and concluded it was a bad deal. This man has zero concept of Western aggression or the violations of NATO promises to Gorbachev that they wouldn’t move East, thereby discrediting the legitimacy of NATO. He just thinks it’s a bad deal for America.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27075420 - 12/06/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I too share your disagreement with his positions in those areas, but which wars are you referring to?



Any and all wars. Trump didn’t end any wars. He very well tried to incite a few.



Trump didn't start any new wars.  I'll make a bet that Biden will.  And/or that he'll reverse the slowdown that we've seen in places like Syria and Afghanistan.




What slowdown? There are more troops in hot zones now than there were when trump took office.


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods] * 1
    #27075430 - 12/06/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

theyre just dickin around


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods]
    #27075444 - 12/06/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Trump didn't start any new wars.  I'll make a bet that Biden will.  And/or that he'll reverse the slowdown that we've seen in places like Syria and Afghanistan.



What slowdown?



I gave you Syria and Afghanistan.

Quote:

koods said:
There are more troops in hot zones now than there were when trump took office.



What "hot zones"?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27078682 - 12/08/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Trump’s actions with regard to Israel and Iran alone, and the escalations therein, should be enough to show he’s in no meaningful way “anti war” or “anti MIC”

And if you want to argue that the decisions to move the embassy to Jerusalem, assassinate Soleimani, and shred the JCPOA were all plans in motion that trump really couldn’t stop, then you have to stop pretending the President is the only person who directs US foreign policy. The ghouls he surrounds himself with are the same ones Obama did, same ones Bush did.

The ‘establishment” will not allow an executive branch that’s hostile to the interests of the empire. The last one who threatened to rein it in was assassinated. And then his brother. Before that, folks that may have a chance for the presidency, like Eugene Debs, were jailed for being against war.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think there’s a meaningful distinction to be made here between being against the military, and being against the for profit military. Eisenhower was against the latter, but he wanted to nuke North Korea for fucks sake. He never reached the level of conscience of folks like Smedley Butler, who realized that what was painted to him as brave national defense was really just being a mercenary for corporate profit.

And that’s all the military is, especially in our lifetimes. Once you understand the military as an extension of that, it’s pretty easy to write off the idea that Trump has serious opposition to war. The man is just too stupid to realize the underlying benefits of an invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan. He’s a deal guy. The deal he sees is we spent trillions and had thousands die in Afghanistan for nothing. We didn’t even win the war folks! He’s just too stupid to see the bigger picture. If some shitheel at Kissinger and Associates sat him down and explained it to him he’d be giddy about it.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Koods I dunno how you can look at the GWB presidency, launching two wars, killing over a million people, creating an entirely new federal institution to ostensibly “tackle terrorism,” the militarization of our airports and other border areas, the ramp up of drones and surveillance apparatus, the acceleration of private armies like Blackwater, and conclude Trump is worse. Help me out here.

I mean hell, Obama didn’t even really scale Back the Bush doctrine on foreign policy (or really anything else). Trump just represents the next logical progression of our gasping empire. This is what I mean when I say it’s not like each president just writes a new playbook on foreign policy after inauguration. The shit is 99% on rails. That’s why the federal government didn’t grind to a halt when a dipshit like Trump took over.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Okay but just because you acknowledged it was a bad move doesn’t excuse the move.

Regardless, not starting a new war doesn’t mean he’s against the MIC. The MIC does things like overthrow a democratically elected government in Bolivia, in order to install a right wing government willing to hand over mineral rights to their huge supply of lithium. Do you think Trump was unaware of that plot? Or opposed it?

Trump is absolutely the type of guy to think the entire modus operandi of the MIC is cool and good. Any small attempts he’s made to seemingly blunt the goals of the MIC are either because of his own ego (I brought peace to Korea, ME!), some petty grievance with the intelligence community, or because he wants the troops to like him. He’s done nothing to slow the MIC, he’s accelerated it. Ramps up trade war with China, sanctions Russia, rips up Iran Deal and kills some of their people, completely caves to the Likkud in Israel, orchestrates a military coup d’etat in a socialist nation in South America. I mean god damn what else can he do that’s pro MIC?

About the only thing he’s done is bring up the absolute sham of reasoning for the existence of NATO, but, again, he’s only doing that because he doesn’t understand the beneficial relationship of using our military might to have leverage over Western Europe. He read an article about it and concluded it was a bad deal. This man has zero concept of Western aggression or the violations of NATO promises to Gorbachev that they wouldn’t move East, thereby discrediting the legitimacy of NATO. He just thinks it’s a bad deal for America.




:yesnod:

I asked FW those questions and then went snowshoeing for the day. It was great to come back later and have these excellent posts to read. I'm inspired to up my own post-quality. Too bad FW appears more interested in defending Assad from allegations of chemical weapon use, than they are in discussing the reasoning behind their own political beliefs.

I don't believe FW is so naive as to believe that 'starting a new war' is the only way to support the military-industrial complex - it's disappointing that they would choose to avoid the discussion rather than confront their weak justification for voting Trump.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27078733 - 12/08/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It was great to come back later and have these excellent posts to read. I'm inspired to up my own post-quality.



I actually agreed with The Ecstatic's points and I didn't argue with them.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Too bad FW appears more interested in defending Assad from allegations of chemical weapon use...



I'm not defending the use of chemical weapons.  I'm pointing out that the inspection team found no evidence they were even used.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't believe FW is so naive as to believe that 'starting a new war' is the only way to support the military-industrial complex - it's disappointing that they would choose to avoid the discussion rather than confront their weak justification for voting Trump.



I avoided discussion because I agreed with The Ecstatic's points.  Again, my vote for Trump didn't matter and I knew it, because I live in California.  My vote was more a vote against Biden than it was a vote for Trump.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27078765 - 12/08/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

And to quote their response, "Okay but just because you acknowledged it was a bad move doesn’t excuse the move." Anyways, it looks like we've gone full circle now:

"My vote was more a vote against Biden than it was a vote for Trump."

Why wouldn't continuing to vote Green party have achieved that?

"Because voting for the Green Party wouldn't have given the Green Party a win.  Voting for the Republican party might hopefully send a message to Democrats that some people don't like establishment (military industrial complex) politics."

But both Trump and the Republican party are firmly part of the MIC supporting establishment.

"And I agreed with The Ecstatic's points. My vote was more a vote against Biden than it was a vote for Trump."


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27078780 - 12/08/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
And to quote their response, "Okay but just because you acknowledged it was a bad move doesn’t excuse the move."



I agree with The Ecstatic.  I didn't excuse it, I said it was a bad move.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"My vote was more a vote against Biden than it was a vote for Trump."

Why wouldn't continuing to vote Green party have achieved that?



It would have.  Both would have achieved the same result of voting against Biden.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"Because voting for the Green Party wouldn't have given the Green Party a win.  Voting for the Republican party might hopefully send a message to Democrats that some people don't like establishment (military industrial complex) politics."

But both Trump and the Republican party are firmly part of the MIC supporting establishment.

"And I agreed with The Ecstatic's points. My vote was more a vote against Biden than it was a vote for Trump."



Yes, he made some good points after I already voted.  It didn't really matter in California anyway.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27085470 - 12/12/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Oh look...the proud boys are in DC and Trump is once again supporting them.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Enlil]
    #27085669 - 12/12/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

the white panthers


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: cannabinated] * 1
    #27089552 - 12/14/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #27097154 - 12/19/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27097183 - 12/19/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well that was pretty obvious from day one


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods] * 1
    #27097452 - 12/19/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

To a lot of us it was, but I feel like as recent as last week we were still deliberating whether the US government (specifically the intelligence community) was hostile to black leftist groups.

Maybe I’m thinking of something that’s tangentially related, but I figured it’s worth sharing nonetheless.


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27097578 - 12/19/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

DHS is literally the KKK


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: cannabinated] * 2
    #27097721 - 12/19/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I mean....



Context: UN had a vote today on condemning Nazism, the US and Ukraine (whose nazis we’re funneling arms and funds to as a bulwark against Russia) voted against that.

What a joke this country is. Can’t even symbolically condemn Nazis.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27097776 - 12/19/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Also strange that all of Europe and other allies like Korea, Japan, New Zealand and Australia voted in abstention.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27097790 - 12/19/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Fuck the UN tho


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