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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


Registered: 12/13/16
Posts: 1,218
Loc: Floating in liquid gardens
Throw your jars away! * 2
    #27088090 - 12/13/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, maybe don't throw them away just yet...

***DISCLAIMER***** I love jars for their reusability and hate bags for their one time use and vast waste production. That being said...

Over the last couple months I have made the transition to using myco bags instead of mason jars and I'm wondering what took me so long to make this transition. However, I still used jars as master grain jars to expand to bags. My routine became agar wedge to quart jar-> g2g to 5-7 bags with 4 lbs of WBS. This has worked very well. I was always hesitant to inoculate a bag with an agar wedge as I felt that it would take forever, so I figured g2g from a quart jar would be the best.

I also recently decided to look into blending up agar wedges and grain jars and use as inoculant a la eats slurry tek https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=2&Number=10648149&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

The increased colonization speed intrigued me, but I always tread lightly when any extra work is needed (yes, I'm lazy).

But last week, I'm g2ging some bags with jars, and forget about a bag. I had already dumped all my grains from the jars, but had a few plates laying around and decided to say fuck it and inoculate the bag with a plate.

I was just about to slice up the agar, like I usually do with jars, when I realized I could very easily shred the agar wedge with my fingers through the bag. So I dropped the plate in whole, sealed the bag, and proceeded to break that agar plate into as many pieces as possible!

The pictures obviously don't do it justice, but trust me, I shredded the hell out of that summabitch!

This is still a work in progress, as it's only been about a few days since I did this, but the bags seem to be progressing faster than any of the jars. I've been using 2 lbs of WBS in bags as my primary agar inoculation, then I'll be spreading those to 10 or so 4 lb bags.

The great thing about bags is being able to sterilize way more grains per cycle. In my Presto 23 qt PC, I can only fit 10 quart jars. At about a pound of WBS per jar, that's 10 lbs of WBS per cycle. However, I realized I can cram 13 of those 2 lb bags into the same PC (yes it's a squeeze but it's worked so far). That's 26 lbs of WBS per cycle so over 2.5 times more per cycle when using bags over jars. I do increase my sterilization times, to 2.5 hrs at 18-19 psi, but that obviously large increase in grains/cycle is too wonderful to pass up!

I feel like there are many transitional steps in this hobby that may seem daunting to cross, but once its learned, it becomes quite easy. PF Tek to bulk. Injecting spores to learning agar. MS to clones. Jars to bags. I know at every one of those steps, I was hesitant to try, due to it's perceived difficulty. However, once I did it a handful of times, I realized it was not as difficult as I originally thought.

I still want to mess around with making actual slurries with a blender attachment one day, but this seems like a simple way of making a "finger slurry" (that was my nickname in high school... :wink: ) without having to mess around with extra steps.

I'll continue to update this thread with better pics and how well things are progressing, but so far, I'm really liking this way of inoculation, and taking jars completely out of the equation! Now what the hell to do with all these jars and modified lids....


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Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: mind.at.large] * 1
    #27088109 - 12/14/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Rad post. I took such a similar path as you. Years ago I bailed on jars. I assume you are using a hood. I think master jars to bags is the jam, in a hood. Glad things are working.

I finally got a procedure down with bags and no hood.

I make very thick agar plates in extra tall dishes (25mm x 90mm) and blend those up into a huge 100cc syringe. It's a thick jell.

Noc 4 pre-sealed PC'd bags with said syringe in a SAB. Mix a lot right then. The bags (wheat berries) explode and are at 100% in 4-5 days.

So pretty similar to you. I hope you have read Caps SAGAR method, as it is much like your testing.

Bags rock, yet have some technical hurdles to overcome. Glad you are prevailing. Thanks for sharing.


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Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


Edited by tedoro (12/14/20 12:26 AM)


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: tedoro] * 1
    #27088165 - 12/14/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

curious to see how your smashed up agar recovers. Myc can take a serious lickin and keep on tickin but if you fuck it too hard it has a really rough time recovering. We'll see.


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OfflineHaywire
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #27088208 - 12/14/20 03:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

next time, try a rolling pin to completely roll the agar and then vigourously shake.

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
curious to see how your smashed up agar recovers. Myc can take a serious lickin and keep on tickin but if you fuck it too hard it has a really rough time recovering. We'll see.




we blend agar pucks in water and use that to inoculate. I don't think this is worse than that.


--------------------
Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto


My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches


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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


Registered: 12/13/16
Posts: 1,218
Loc: Floating in liquid gardens
Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: Haywire]
    #27088521 - 12/14/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tedoro said:
Rad post. I took such a similar path as you. Years ago I bailed on jars. I assume you are using a hood. I think master jars to bags is the jam, in a hood. Glad things are working.

I finally got a procedure down with bags and no hood.




Thanks! Yeah I have a hood. I couldn't imagine trying to make bags work in a SAB but it seems like you've nailed it! Do you blend up your agar with a blender attachment or do you just mix it up with the needle? Either way that sounds like a great idea

Quote:

tedoro said:
I hope you have read Caps SAGAR method, as it is much like your testing.




I have read it! Caps always has great write ups. I have thought about trying it with soft agar but I'm hesitant. What I love about my method is being able to scoop up the whole agar puck in one move and drop it straight into the bag. No need for slicing or anything like that. So I feel like soft agar might not actually be conducive to my method. However, if I were to try and blend it up first, then soft agar definitely seems like the way to go!

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
curious to see how your smashed up agar recovers. Myc can take a serious lickin and keep on tickin but if you fuck it too hard it has a really rough time recovering. We'll see.



I was thinking that, like Haywire mentioned, since agar pucks can handle a blender and then recover nice and strong, I figured that the mycelium can handle anything that I can do with my fingers, but I'll check on the recovery today and post some pics. It's been about 4 days since inoculation so it should be looking good today.


Quote:

Haywire said:
next time, try a rolling pin to completely roll the agar and then vigourously shake.




That's an interesting idea but I feel like it would be difficult to implement because usually, after getting sealed, my bags are filled with air, and it might be hard to take a rolling pin to it without putting too much pressure on the bag. But maybe next time I'll try and squeeze all the air out through the filter and try it!


--------------------
Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: mind.at.large]
    #27088551 - 12/14/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yep, just a little 4 ounce jar with an oyster blade... like many others do. Holds about 100cc's. The less water I add the faster the leapoff. I'm not sure why, but thats how it is. About half soft agar to half water turns it into a gel. My whole process is very similar to LC, and I am jealous of LC peeps here that have it down. But my agar is still hard enough to show surface growth (in addition to colonizing the entire puck) and that soothes me to see a clean growth in 2D. And fuck man, 4-5 days is fast. Last year I had bags go 4 weeks.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


Edited by tedoro (12/14/20 10:34 AM)


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: Haywire] * 1
    #27088569 - 12/14/20 10:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Haywire said:
we blend agar pucks in water and use that to inoculate. I don't think this is worse than that.




I'm well aware. Try blending a little longer and see what happens. Or try shaking an jar just nocced up with LC and see what happens. It is possible to over abuse myc that isn't living inside something hard that can protect it (grain).

He just said he really shredded it. I think it'll be totally fine.


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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


Registered: 12/13/16
Posts: 1,218
Loc: Floating in liquid gardens
Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: tedoro]
    #27088573 - 12/14/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tedoro said:
Yep, just a little 4 ounce jar with an oyster blade... like many others do. Holds about 100cc's. The less water I add the faster the leapoff. I'm not sure why, but thats how it is. About half soft agar to half water turns it into a gel. My whole process is very similar to LC, and I am jealous of LC peeps here that have it down. But my agar is still hard enough to show surface growth (in addition to colonizing the entire puck) and that soothes me to see a clean growth in 2D. And fuck man, 4-5 days is fast. Last year I had bags go 4 weeks.



Damn! 4-5 days is pretty damn fast. I'll definitely have to give this a try


--------------------
Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


Endless Sub Tek


...the doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me...


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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


Registered: 12/13/16
Posts: 1,218
Loc: Floating in liquid gardens
Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: mind.at.large]
    #27088581 - 12/14/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Verum, you bring up a good point. There must be a fine line between creating a ton of good inoculation points and over abusing the mycelium. I'll have to do some tests and see just how hard I can beat up the myc before its too much haha!


--------------------
Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


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...the doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me...


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InvisibleLemgrub
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27088760 - 12/14/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:

I'm well aware. Try blending a little longer and see what happens. Or try shaking an jar just nocced up with LC and see what happens. It is possible to over abuse myc that isn't living inside something hard that can protect it (grain).

He just said he really shredded it. I think it'll be totally fine.




I just started messing with LC and have almost no colonization on any jar I shook after inoculation, and it's coming close to a week. A few others I didn't shake and saw colonization within a couple days. Thought that was really odd.


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OfflineHaywire
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27088799 - 12/14/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
Quote:

Haywire said:
we blend agar pucks in water and use that to inoculate. I don't think this is worse than that.




I'm well aware. Try blending a little longer and see what happens. Or try shaking an jar just nocced up with LC and see what happens. It is possible to over abuse myc that isn't living inside something hard that can protect it (grain).

He just said he really shredded it. I think it'll be totally fine.




I have done both, yes. in my experience, the blending can indeed be a problem. shaking grains or substrate after LC inoculation, not so much. never had issues doing that.

only thing that never works for me is inoculating outdoor substrates with liquid culture. I think it dries out before it can get a hold.


--------------------
Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto


My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: Haywire] * 1
    #27089279 - 12/14/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I've done lots of tests with LC regarding shaking vs rolling vs nothing. Shaking too hard can and will absolutely beat the ever living fuck out of the myc. I've had it sit stagnant for well over a week before starting up and I've also had it die and never ever grow.


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Offlinetedoro
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27089371 - 12/14/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
I've done lots of tests with LC regarding shaking vs rolling vs nothing. Shaking too hard can and will absolutely beat the ever living fuck out of the myc. I've had it sit stagnant for well over a week before starting up and I've also had it die and never ever grow.




I've done tests with my very thick agar syringes. I've always attempted to blend the agar the absolute least I needed to to get it into the syringe. But I found no difference between that and blending it to a smooth gel that easily got sucked up in the syringe. So now I make sure that I blend it thoroughly.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC


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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: tedoro]
    #27089455 - 12/14/20 07:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

That's interesting to hear about LC being ineffective if shaken right after inoculation. I definitely do not have a ton of experience with LC, but if I had to guess, I would say I shook damn near all my LC jars after inoculation and don't remember dealing with a lack of colonizing (for better or worse) but that was a while ago. I've been wanting to get back into LC lately so maybe I'll run some tests.

Also, update on the agar inoculated bags. The mycelium has seemed to make a decent recovery but is still really not that quick. Definitely quicker than the jars I inoculated around the same time though. I'll wait till full colonization before making too many judgements. However, I still fully believe these bags will go quicker than jars, even with double the amount of grains. So compared to a 4-5 day colonizing speed of a blended agar slurry, this tek is not the best. But for how little work it is to drop a whole agar puck into a bag, with the increased colonizing speeds, I will probably continue doing this tek instead of jars.


--------------------
Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


Endless Sub Tek


...the doll's trying to kill me and the toaster's been laughing at me...


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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27089581 - 12/14/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

so hey you just drop the whole dish in? do you use a scalpel or just free hand it like a tiger drop? I'll be trying this soon for sure, just wasn't sure what sort of sterile technique I'd use to actually transfer the agar.


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Invisiblemind.at.large
Myconerd


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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: junk_f00d]
    #27089624 - 12/14/20 10:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I use a scalpel but I’ve thought about tiger dropping it. I haven’t used pasty plates in a while but it would probably work well.


--------------------
Mind's Easy Bag 2 Bag Grain Transfers


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InvisibleTedsDead
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: mind.at.large]
    #27089665 - 12/14/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with verum.  Ive had myc die in an lc when just stirred too much with stir bars


--------------------
weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed...  -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: TedsDead] * 1
    #27089770 - 12/15/20 01:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I have never had that happen. What the fuck kind of stirrer do you have? Is it built from lawn mower parts?


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OfflineHaywire
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27089805 - 12/15/20 02:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I've done intensive testing on liquid culture.
my findings were that 10 minutes per hour harvested the most mycelium. less or more stirring than that decreased yields.
However, the difference between continuous stirring was not that big.

and yes, I tested that with a monoculture.


--------------------
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My grows :mushroom2: Outdoor patches


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InvisibleTedsDead
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Re: Throw your jars away! [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27090297 - 12/15/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
I have never had that happen. What the fuck kind of stirrer do you have? Is it built from lawn mower parts?





haha!  computer fans and harddrive magnets.

yeah, 15 min per hr is what was working well for me.


--------------------
weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed...  -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396


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