Home | Community | Message Board


RVF Garden Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Scales, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed, pH Test Strips

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer"
    #2708737 - 05/21/04 12:32 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If one wanted to make an improved cake mix, I guess it should be something high in phosphorus and tryptophan. In post [1699133], metaophion says
Quote:

AFOAF's own personal research into the pharmacodynamics of fungi as chemical synthesis engines has proven the l-tryptophan method to work, but even further down the precursor list of the raw growth factors AFOAF have found that Thiamine HCl (Vitamin B1) when combined with d-Maltose and a source for trace minerals (spring water) not only populates very rapidly but provides comparable synthesis pathways for the production of Indole Alkaloids, and exhibits a superior uptake affinity leaving only trace quantities of un-reacted Thiamine and providing a near complete conversion. When using l-tryptophan significant quantities were found un-reacted although Indole production was higher, leading AFOAF to conclude that environmental situations do affect production factors.




Also, the mushroom culture formulas include niacin and phosphate ions. If one were to desire a higher potency of mushrooms, what would the best mix be? Has anyone done some research on this? The superiority of millet was claimed to be due to its higher tryptophan levels. What other nutrients are necessary for mushrooms to make full use of the available tryptophan and phosphorus?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLegoulash
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 4,347
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2708794 - 05/21/04 12:40 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

spring water ehh.. would river water work? but weve got high murcury content would that make a major impact?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: Legoulash]
    #2713804 - 05/22/04 03:39 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't eat shrooms grown with water I wouldn't drink.

You are what you trip, man :peace:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2716031 - 05/22/04 10:14 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I hear coffee works well if used right..theres a thread on it somewhere.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemycoguy
old hand

Registered: 03/25/04
Posts: 874
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: scatmanrav]
    #2716096 - 05/22/04 10:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

theres a rather large thread on it. it was started at mycotopia. I'm testing it out now. WBS jars are colonizing. I'm gonna try it with some brf jars tonight.


--------------------

(and no, that's not me in the avatar)
Yahoo! Pacific Northwest Mycology Group


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblematts
matts

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 3,649
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: mycoguy]
    #2716135 - 05/22/04 10:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleATWAR
Connoisseur

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1,640
Loc: #108768 in line...
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2716388 - 05/22/04 11:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Search for brassinosterioids... There was a post on them here, with possible natural sources. But they are very expensive to buy. If you want really good yields, then you simply need really good substrates and isolates with the importance of matching the two. Start there, then you can refine the mix with supplements (use only organic forms of nutrients).

I would avoid using water that has a high heavy metal content, as mushrooms have been shown to concentrate them.


--------------------
To give is to live...



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: ATWAR]
    #2717104 - 05/23/04 02:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Is tryptophan the major limiting factor in psilocybin production?
Brown rice flour is rather low in tryptophan--0.092g/100g. However, millet isn't much better--0.119g/100g, 1.3x more. If this were the only limiting factor, then soy flour would be the best substrate as it contains 0.502g/100g, 5.5x more tryptophan by weight. However, the composition of soy flour is very different, consisting of 21% lipids and 35% carbohydrates, while millet is 72% carbs and only 4% fats. BRF is 76% carbs and 3% fats. I guess the shrooms use carbs to biosynthesize tryptophan. But in that case, what is the advantage of millet over brown rice flour?

If it were both carbs and tryptophan that were the limiting factors, then I suggest the following other media:


tryptophan (xBRF) carbs fat
raw oat bran: 0.335g 3.6 66% 7%
crude wheat germ: 0.317g 3.4 52% 10%
crude wheat bran: 0.282g 3.0 65% 4%
whole wheat flour: 0.212g 2.3 73% 2%

In particular, I draw attention to whole wheat flour, which should, by this metric, kick millet's sorry ass in terms of both availability and tryptophan content.

My understanding of shroom chemistry is weak, but why not make a mixture of cracked whole wheat, flour, and corn syrup, fortified perhaps with trace minerals (seaweed?) for phosphorus, etc? This would seem to provide shrooms with nearly optimum nutrition. Then again, I guess it depends where the bottleneck is in the psilocybin synthesis pathway. I need to study the enzymes and their cofactors deeper.

For general interest, corn in unusually low in tryptophan. How potent are shrooms grown in this medium? [list]


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblematts
matts

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 3,649
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2717292 - 05/23/04 03:46 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: matts]
    #2718151 - 05/23/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Brown rice flour contains 337 mg phosphorus / 100 g
millet contains 287 mg P / 100 g

If this were all used in the production of psilocybin (which of course it is not), it would be enough to produce 2.6 - 3 g.

As millet is supposed to produce stronger shrooms, but actually contains less phosphorus, I wonder if P is the limiting factor. It could of course be psilocin, but doesn't it oxidize rather quickly?

Also, shrooms can synthesize their own tryptophan. But what is the rate limiting step?

Upon further examination, it appears that whole-wheat flour has higher quantities of almost every nutrient than millet, including almost twice the tryptophan. It is also very cheap and readily available. Why is it not used in shroom teks?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblematts
matts

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 3,649
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2719400 - 05/23/04 07:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: matts]
    #2721811 - 05/24/04 10:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Sticky, eh? That I wouldn't know about. I imagine it could be mixed with something like sawdust or vermiculite to give it bulk and airiness if it was. I have to read some stuff on bulk growing tek. Why is it that millet is so preferred, though?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: srzrai]
    #2723130 - 05/24/04 04:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yes wheat can be sticky. The same substance which makes it great for breads and cakes ( gluten ) is what helps it stick in situations where we don't want it to.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblematts
matts

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 3,649
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: Evolving]
    #2723751 - 05/24/04 06:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Re: Seeking the best shroom "fertilizer" [Re: matts]
    #2724376 - 05/24/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It seems the subject of mushroom nutrition has been broached at the hive some time ago:

https://www.the-hive.ws/forum/showflat.pl?Cat=&Number=184209#Post184209
"Enhanced Psilocybin Production"

Their angle was towards submerged culture, but much useful info. It indeed seems that niacin is an important limiting element. I wonder what would happen if someone mixed up a batch of their nutrient medium and used it to wet their cakes instead of pure water. Hmmm....?

Several recipes that could well be adapted to bulk growing, I think.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesrzrai
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/04
Posts: 7
Here's something [Re: srzrai]
    #2724408 - 05/24/04 09:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

In that article at the hive "Zen", who seems to be quite the expert, quotes an article:
-------------------

Ref: Catalfomo, P. and V.E. Tyler, Jr. "The Production of psilocybin in submerged culture of Psilocybe cubensis" LLoydia 27:53-63, 1964

Pellets of Psilocybe cubensis produced in medium no. 1 [ammonium succinate (1 g), Glycine (9 g), Glucose (5 g), yeast extract (.5 g), KH2PO4 (.1 g), thiamine hydrochloride (.003 g), (NH4)6Mo7O24-4H2O (.05 mg), ZnSO4-7H2O (.3 mg), MnCl2-4H2O (.35 mg), FeSO4-7H2O (2.5 mg), CuSO4-5H2O (0.5 mg), MgSO4-7H2O (0.5 g), distilled water, to make (1.0 L), adjust to pH 5.5 with hydrochloric acid] accumulated psilocybin but not psilocin. Maximum production of the former compound occurred on the seventh day (0.52 per cent, dry weight of mycelium), whereas growth attained its maximum (average 112.6 mg, dry weight of mycelium per 30 mL of medium in a 125 mL flask) on the ninth day.

Maximum yields of both psilocybin and mycelium occurred in the acid pH range (4.0-4.6). However, the acidid nature of the mycelium does not preclude the possibility that thte internal pH of the organism is maintained at a different level by an efficient buffering system. Failure to find psilocybin in the medium may be attributed to its instability in the vigorously agitated acid medium, although permability factors are probably also involved.

In the absence of a readily assimilable carbon source (glucose), detectable amounts of psilocybin did not accumulate. Omission of ammonium succinate did not significantly alter the pH of the medium but it did lower psilocybin yields. Without yeast extract, mycelial production was retarded at five days, and culture liquors remained acidic through the eleventh day. Adaption and/or synthesis of necessary precursors nevertheless permitted a continued increase in growth which was accompanied by a rapid increase inthe yield of psilocybin by the seventh day. Similar results were obtained for media from which both yeast extract and thiamine had been omitted, except psilocybin levels remained lower.

According to Cochrane (5) most fungi have an absolute requirement for thiamine; however, where low levels are needed, synthesis takes place after initiation of growth. Under conditions of thiamine deficiency, glucose utilization is impaired, which may account for initial inhibition of growth when yeast extract or that ingredient and thiamine were omitted from the medium. Although glycine constituted more than one-half of the total weight of the dissolved solids in medium no. 1, the organism grew and metabolized efficiently in its absence.

The influence of different concentrations of glucose, ammonium succinate, and potassium acid phosphate in medium no. 1 was noted. A low level of glucose was associated with a rapid rise in exracellular pH, and lower levels of product accumulated. Doubling the normal amount of carbohydrate promoted psilocybin accumulation which reached a level of 1.02 percent (dry weight) by the seventh day. After eleven days, this level dropped to 0.15 percent; a similar sudden decline in psilocybin content was also noted in those flasks containing a reduced phosphate concentration. The significance of the low pH levels after eleven days is unknown. In contrast, levels of ammonium succinate which were one-half or twice that of the normal medium had no significant effect upon pH or psilocybin production.

Extracellular tryptophan added to replacement flasks did not enhance psilocybin production, but, instead, underwent degradative reactions of the type reported to occur in Neurospora and other fungi (5). This conclusion is based on the observation that a progressive increase in kynurenine, a catabolic product of tryptophan metabolism, paralleled the disappearance of tryptophan. These results are not necessarily contradictory to those obtained by Brack, et al. (2) since they used a different organism and different experimental design which preclude a direct comparison. However, our results do establish the existance of a direct relationship between psilocybin production and mycelial growth. Utilization of th replacement culture technique served to separate growth and psilocybin production, whereas the method of Brack, et al., did not afford this distinction. It was concluded that psilocybin production is so intimately related to mycelial proliferation that the nutrient-deficient replacement medium was of little value inthe study of psilocybin biosynthesis. However, the technique had previously proven satisfactory for biosynthetic studies of other indole derivatives in fungi (3).

Increasing the scale of fermentation from 30 mL of medium in 125-mL flasks to 300 mL in 2800-mL flasks markedly affected psilocybin production. Significatn differences in yields did not appear until after the seventh day when accumulation of product ceased, and a more rapid decline occurred in the large flasks as the pellets became physiologically older. Although the cause of this phenomenon was not established, it way be attributed, at least in part, to differences in the efficiency of aeration of the cultures.
-----------


How about that?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Scales, Vermiculite, Wild Bird Seed, pH Test Strips

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Tryptophan content of various foods.
( 1 2 all )
Baby_Hitler 2,789 25 03/20/04 07:53 PM
by the man
* Re: super potent shrooms are possible.
( 1 2 3 all )
Bleuboxo 5,921 43 09/04/03 04:35 PM
by pure999
* Re: Tryptophan & potency metabolic pathway theory Sclorch 1,809 10 05/30/00 02:39 PM
by Sclorch
* Different tryptophan approachh Ducky 675 1 05/19/06 03:19 AM
by fastfred
* 999 Foods Highest in Tryptophan MagicalMystery 5,213 17 09/10/05 09:05 AM
by FooMan
* Super potent shrooms, why argue?
( 1 2 all )
egghead 6,996 39 06/05/06 11:22 AM
by Wronguy
* Tryptophan the universe 924 5 06/03/01 02:02 AM
by Humidity
* L-Tryptophan Frappy 1,491 6 11/06/14 12:50 AM
by RogerRabbit

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, RogerRabbit, EvilMushroom666
3,408 topic views. 0 members, 7 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.089 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 14 queries.