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shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27079834 - 12/09/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Josex said:
Quote:
shroower said:
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There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10 years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
First off, I want to make it clear that I'm not even sure that's OP's problem. Just brought up the subject of surviving endos as a possibility.
You guys living in the USA? Are just spoiled seriously. The quality of the grain you have there is just top-notch. You can get seed quality grain easily if you want but the feed grade you have there is also very good. Where I live I can only get the worst shit imaginable, not exaggerating one bit. That's how you get to know what shit grain can do for ya. The slightest fuck up in the prep or an insufficient cycle of just 2 hours and I can expect bacteria. I've had so many instances where it was obvious bacterial spores did survive the PC that I could write a book.
Nonetheless, if you've been here on this forum long enough you get to know instances where even very well known cultivators experienced something like this at some point too.
I get it, and my turn will probably come too the more I do it. All I'm trying to point out is that the kind of endospores we see in grains are not some sort of alien super entity that will be just chilling at 121C . They die pretty easy as long as the heat reaches them. For example, grain soak/simmer water used for agar and/or LC doesn't get bacteria from endospores as easily as grain spawn, even though the liquid coming outta the grain is full of it. It's just the whole agar mix or LC reaches the temperature and 20 mins is enough to kill it at 121C .
I probably haven't come across a really shitty grain like you're describing but the key in my opinion is to have it fully hydrated before going to the autoclave so that heat is transferred deep inside each grain. Dry grains are key to contamination.
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ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 24 days
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat]
#27080464 - 12/09/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Kizzle explained the condensation in your jars. Those are pretty much perfect. That is how oats should look, and the moisture is irrelevant in this case
I would love to believe that, in fact, against my better judgement, I tried to spawn jars from all 5 LCs I had. That level of moisture always meant bacteria in my experience. I tried, and trich in all five 2 weeks later
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Failboat
Fuck Up
Registered: 02/01/18
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27081347 - 12/09/20 11:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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The jars smelled fine? Did you mix the spawn? Did you test the LCs? Wet sub will certainly exacerbate any small contaminations present. Could this be a perfect storm kind of situation.
Minimal bacteria should cause minimal trouble and those jars didn't seem to be ice creamy nor were the grains wet and uncolonized it that telltale fashion. What did they look like before you spawned em? 100% or ~99%.
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sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat] 1
#27084675 - 12/11/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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2 weeks to trich is not dirty spawn. 2 weeks to trich is dirty prep of substrate.
As in you are dirty take a shower...Or your room is really dirty. Or your pasteurization or whatever is wack. Or your tubs are dirty and not sanitized well. Something like this takes 2 weeks to show.
Dirty spawn will not take 2 weeks to show nasty when spawned. Dirty spawn will either do nothing and stall out (bacteria) or show quickly (molds) and spread fast IMO.
Your little specks of moisture had nothing to do with your failure IMO. You should look elsewhere for the cause.
Edited by sandman420 (12/11/20 09:04 PM)
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Failboat
Fuck Up
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: sandman420] 1
#27084787 - 12/11/20 09:54 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat] 1
#27084788 - 12/11/20 09:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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sh4d0ws
LSx


Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex] 1
#27084796 - 12/11/20 10:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Egohst
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/20
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: sh4d0ws]
#27084901 - 12/12/20 12:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I use Sorgum for all my mushrooms. Right now Cordyceps, reishi, Pan Cyan, Ps Galindoi, oyster, PE, PE6(isolate), oh and Lions Mane. Roughly 50% have moisture bc they are colonized enough to give off heat which, drum roll...causes condensation, I’m no rocket scientist but I do have a degree in Biomedical Science and 3 full college years of microbiology experience. SMell not moisture has been my best indicator for bacteria along with slow colonization.
I run a 3500 SQ foot medical grade HEPA($269 just for the filter replace). That gets everything even chemicals of most types...so how does penicillin still sometimes make its way in? It’s ubiquitous. The old houses I’ve lived in have messed with all my projects, plants and mushrooms both. Get a good filter. Below is a pick of a shoebox spawned from a moisture ridden jar that was also slow to colonize. You can always always always try to spawn. Def do take it out if you notice any contamination though.
I started PCing my Sorghum for 2 hrs 20min. Full jars at least. This cook time plus my giant HEPA have def lowered my contamination rate. The house I currently own is 30years old and carpeted. Just moved so working on changing that carpet ASAP. However since switching to glass Petris I’ve had less than 1% contamination rate. So is it really the carpet? If I forget to clean my humidifier one week I always get the Trich on SOMETHING in my room, in a jar or substrate.
http://
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084911 - 12/12/20 12:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've heard that tale before. 
Just keep at it, someday you'll realize it was your spawn all along.
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Egohst
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/20
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084914 - 12/12/20 12:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Meant to add especially for pans and ps tampanensis types(like Gal) I pasteurize TWO hours. My cubes and all others I do boiling water directly into the dry sub in an IGLOO Gatorade cooler doo-hickey. I tried no pasteurization and it didn’t work with my manure. I disagree with above also. Dirty spawn can contaminate a sub two days or 3 weeks after it is spawned!!!11 OR NEVER. I have spawned tons of contaminated jars, 50% percent of them fruited and never let the contamination grow into the sub at all. Dial in your pasteurization and sterilization tek and your cleanliness of your own body. Use hands(even with gloves) as little as possible. Use sterile tools, vacuum often, wash everything AND THEN sanitize with preferred substance. I use dilute bleach with dilute glacial acetic acid USE CAUTION Mixing bleach and vinegar in HIGH CONCENTRATIONS=Chlorine gas... if you mix strong bleach with strong acid YOur GOnna HAve a BAd TIme! Don’t French fry when you need to pizza man. If the moisture in your jars is clear...double everything’s fine.
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
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Egohst
Stranger

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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084918 - 12/12/20 12:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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What tale? The one where I agree that it’s his spawn? Read the post. I have had bad spawn ruin a sub and contam spawn never show again in the fruiting process. Strain, genetics, and most of all the person. Moisture in jars is fine.
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084936 - 12/12/20 01:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wouldn't touch LC till you are 100% sure that your sterile technique is on point.
Being 99% sure can come back to bite you in the ass. When its that 1% variable it makes it harder to pin down what you are messing up.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27084960 - 12/12/20 02:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
No seed could survive sterilization. Sometimes unsterilized seeds get mixed in during spawning. One place you'll never see a sprouting grain is the place you would expect to find it if had somehow survived sterilization, in the sterilized spawn jar. Unless it had already sprouted before sterilization.
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shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Kizzle]
#27084995 - 12/12/20 03:25 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
No seed could survive sterilization. Sometimes unsterilized seeds get mixed in during spawning. One place you'll never see a sprouting grain is the place you would expect to find it if had somehow survived sterilization, in the sterilized spawn jar. Unless it had already sprouted before sterilization.
I'll chase the guy to see if I still can get the pictures and details but I'm absolutely sure he did not mix unsterilized seed during spawning, because he had none.
Obviously I agree that a seed cannot survive sterilization temperatures. What I'm saying is that sometimes they do not reach even close to those temperatures. Just because the pressure cooker is at 15psi doesn't mean that every solid matter inside is immediately at 121C.
Edited by shroower (12/12/20 03:42 AM)
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27085028 - 12/12/20 04:41 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sometimes there are seeds in the coir!
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shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Sockadin]
#27085032 - 12/12/20 04:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sockadin said:

Sometimes there are seeds in the coir!
That's Occam's razor right there, thanks for reminding me of the obvious.
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27085060 - 12/12/20 05:25 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nature finds a way.
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,816
Loc: Gaming the system
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Sockadin]
#27085075 - 12/12/20 05:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I’ve had plenty of sprouts.
Apparently there are seeds in jiffy mix also cuz I had this pop up in my last pan tub which has no coir. Just wbs, manure and a peat case.
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LAGM2020     
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smalltalk_canceled
Babnik


Registered: 07/13/20
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Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: A.k.a]
#27085134 - 12/12/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Keep fighting Chard!
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
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