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Offlinemorrowasted
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Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression
    #27081128 - 12/09/20 10:06 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/dec/09/psychedelic-drug-dmt-to-be-trialled-in-uk-to-treat-depression

Quote:

UK regulators have given the go-ahead for the first clinical trial of the use of the psychedelic drug dimethyltriptamine (DMT) to treat depression.

The trial will initially give the drug – known as the “spirit molecule” for the powerful hallucinogenic trips it induces – to healthy individuals, but it is expected to be followed by a second trial in patients with depression, where DMT will be given alongside psychotherapy.

Taking the drug before therapy is akin to shaking up a snow globe and letting the flakes settle, said Carol Routledge, chief scientific and medical officer at Small Pharma, the company running the trial in collaboration with Imperial College London.

“The psychedelic drug breaks up all of the ruminative thought processes in your brain – it literally undoes what has been done by either the stress you’ve been through or the depressive thoughts you have – and hugely increases the making of new connections.

“Then the [psychotherapy] session afterwards is the letting-things-settle piece of things – it helps you to make sense of those thoughts and puts you back on the right track. We think this could be a treatment for a number of depressive disorders besides major depression, including PTSD, treatment-resistant depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and possibly some types of substance abuse.”

DMT is found in several plants and is one of the active ingredients in ayahuasca, a bitter drink consumed during shamanistic rituals in South America and elsewhere. DMT is also available as a street drug in the UK, where it classified as a class A substance, carrying a maximum penalty of seven years in jail for possession and life imprisonment for supply.

The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) approved the trial on Monday, and Small Pharma is currently involved in discussions with the Home Office, which must also give permission because DMT is a controlled substance.

The hope is that the initial trial, which aims to establish the lowest dose of DMT that elicits a psychedelic experience, could begin in January. It will involve 32 healthy volunteers, who have never previously taken a psychedelic drug, including ecstasy or ketamine. This will be followed by trial in 36 patients with clinical depression.

The treatment will be modelled on studies of psilocybin – the psychedelic ingredient in magic mushrooms – in depression. Here patients are brought into a clinic, where they undergo a “setting” session, during which the clinician primes them to open their mind to the drug, and ensures that they are comfortable and relaxed. Next, they are administered the drug, and once the psychedelic experience ends, the patient immediately undergo a session of psychotherapy.

The difference with DMT is that the psychedelic experience comes on faster and more intensely, but is over more quickly. “Whereas a psilocybin session takes all day – and if you’re doing two or even more of those, that’s a large time commitment – a DMT session, all in, will probably take under two hours,” said Peter Rands, Small Pharma’s CEO.

“We expect DMT to be rapid-acting, equivalent or perhaps even better than psilocybin, so within hours of a session you will get rapid relief [from your depression]. We also expect the effect to be sustained over a similar time period.”

One recent trial of psilocybin and psychotherapy found a continued reduction in patients’ depressive symptoms four weeks after taking the drug.

Previous studies of ayahuasca have also suggested that it might have an antidepressant effect, said Amanda Feilding, founder and director of the Oxfordshire-based Beckley Foundation, which designs and develops psychedelic drug research to inform global drugs policy.

“I myself don’t find DMT to be a very lovable compound, but it is definitely an interesting study to do,” she said. “It is a harsher compound than other psychedelics like psilocybin or LSD, where the experience is more like a flower opening and receiving what’s already inside you.

“DMT triggers a strong [psychedelic trip], where people experience what they call ‘the entities’ – they meet beings who seem to be real, like being in a dream. But it can rather take one over.”




Do you guys think DMT would make a good introduction to psychedelics? I honestly don't know. Sometimes I think an experience so intense yet brief that it doesn't have the space or time to be negative might just be the right recipe for healing.

I personally never got much out of DMT, but I wonder how I might have reacted differently had I done it at around this age, without any prior psychedelic experiences. My girlfriend took psychedelics recently for the first time at 33 and the way she reacted was very different from the way I reacted in my late teens and early 20s, but similar to how I react now, and I can't help but wonder if part of having the right "set" for a psychedelic experience includes having enough of an identity already formed in order to be questioned, if that makes any sense.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: morrowasted]
    #27081438 - 12/10/20 03:27 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I assume they mean injected DMT w/o MAOI, but should that just be 15-15mins as when smoked, not 2h?


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: polaritymind]
    #27081496 - 12/10/20 05:03 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

The immediate effects will take 15 minutes but the hour or so following are also an amazing and seemingly fleeting time to go over your experience.

I'm on the fence also OP.


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: pineninja]
    #27081536 - 12/10/20 05:57 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

remixed Christmas song

(Walking in a winter wonderland)
(Living in Political Prison Land)

Fauci speaks, are you listening?
Wear the mask, keep social distancing
It’s a very depressing sight, for one to be isolated day and night
We are living in Political prison Land

Gone away, are  all our Civil Rights,
because Cuomo was on CNN Last night
Elected leaders today, think they are
God’s in some way,
We are living in Political prison Land!

Next to new york, there is Jersey
Run by the  idiot, named Phil Murphy
They think he is bright, though he has never been right
We are living in political prison Land!

Head out West, it’s very Gruesome
Run by Governor Gavin Newsome
The homeless and decay, disgrace our nation everyday
We are living in Political Prison Land

A Biden win, the election is finally  over
Reality sets in
I’m feeling sober
Now that Donald Trump is finally gone,
by using the Virus as a pawn
We are living in political prison Land!

They’re halting Christmas and the new year
No buying booze or some cold beer
These evil bastards “we pay” Seem to think they have
The final say,
We are living in political prison Land!

We have Elite’s, like Bill Gates, whose life long dream, has been to depopulate!
We finally have a vaccine and it’s the best you’ve ever seen
We are living in a political prison Land!

Give up your freedom, for some security, inside this shot, comes much uncertainty
Our constitution, they say, is outdated in many ways
We are living in political prison Land!


Forced vaccination, is the only way, You will do this, because that is what I say,
In the land of the free, I ask how the F**K can this be?
We are living in political prison Land!

As the time goes by and the years do pass, we will look back and say this was a war about
class!

We are living in a political prison Land!


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: perikleous] * 1
    #27081573 - 12/10/20 06:41 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

:ban:?


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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #27081575 - 12/10/20 06:42 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

there's a pic of a B. Caapi cutting but they will not be using MAOIs.
why must every DMT article do this? :bored:


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: polaritymind]
    #27081632 - 12/10/20 08:19 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

polaritymind said:
I assume they mean injected DMT w/o MAOI, but should that just be 15-15mins as when smoked, not 2h?




Yeah, I can't see them throwing an MAOI into the mix but maybe administered in a drip? à la ketamine...but I wouldn't be surprised to see it IVed even if it's not the most effective method, to get patients in and out faster.

But, there might not be a meaningful difference, at least in immediately surveyed outcomes, between the different lengths of duration followed by therapy, in most people.

Though I wonder how it affects how long gains made last, such as a longer DMT experience lifting depression for a wider window before treatment is needed again or being more effective in treatment resistant patients.

Single dose IV DMT is probably plenty effective in amplifying following therapy, but I wonder if its long enough lasting to take full advantage of its neurogenic properties.

Quote:

Do you guys think DMT would make a good introduction to psychedelics? I honestly don't know. Sometimes I think an experience so intense yet brief that it doesn't have the space or time to be negative might just be the right recipe for healing.




They are looking for the lowest effective dose, so I'm not sure intensity will be an issue. At the proper dose DMT isn't that different from most of its analogs, especially without an MAOI. Even if the lowest effective dose ends up being relatively high, the peak is over so quickly it's probably more manageable than perhaps less intense but much longer lasting alternatives.


Edited by Holybullshit (12/10/20 08:26 AM)


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: Holybullshit] * 1
    #27081642 - 12/10/20 08:34 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I never found it to be useful

It is too fleeting and I don't understand how it could magically unravel someone's unconscious and negative thoughts in such a quick manner

They could do the twelve years of therapy in 12 hours...cough acid cough...but they're chasing DMT because having someone go on a twelve hour experience means extra time and resources...and then they'll need therapists to talk to...

This study's author must be ignorant about DMT or depression, or both

Getting incredibly high for fifteen minutes isn't going to help much. I've tried it. It's not very effective for depression.

I'm not a fan of this study. They're going to come to the conclusion that DMT is not effective, and then that means it's baadddd -_-


--------------------
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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: skOsH]
    #27081646 - 12/10/20 08:43 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I'm sorry but your anecdotal experience's in a non-clinical setting free from support from professionals isn't really meaningful here.

Even if you were to undergo the exact same treatment without positive gains it wouldn't mean much, no treatment is effective for everyone.

And I'm not arguing that this treatment regimen will be efficacious, just that your own experiences aren't very relevant one way or another.

I support the trial even if it doesn't work, there will be many failures along the way to developing effective psychedelic treatment options. If it fails we can move on to either other dosing regimens or other compounds altogether.

Also, I don't know how "incredibly" high people will be getting, as they are looking for the lowest effective dose. It wouldn't even be surprising to find lower doses can be more effective than higher ones.


Edited by Holybullshit (12/10/20 08:51 AM)


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: perikleous]
    #27081751 - 12/10/20 10:29 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

You are equating mask mandates with political imprisonment? LMFAO, I wonder how Nelson Mandela would feel about that.

OH THE TYRANNY! /s

How do you not understand that right of others to be protected from infection trumps your freedom to spread the virus as you please.

Having to wear a mask and temporarily practice social distancing is a MUCH smaller infringement than forcing others to undertake the risk doing nothing poses.

I don't understand how the MAGA crowd can also be anti-vaxxers when Trump is a proponent of the vaccine and often tries to take credit for their creation.

The right wing has become pawns of Putin, most of the propaganda and misinformation they subscribe to originates from Russian troll farms.


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27082032 - 12/10/20 01:55 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
I'm sorry but your anecdotal experience's in a non-clinical setting free from support from professionals isn't really meaningful here.

Even if you were to undergo the exact same treatment without positive gains it wouldn't mean much, no treatment is effective for everyone.

And I'm not arguing that this treatment regimen will be efficacious, just that your own experiences aren't very relevant one way or another.

I support the trial even if it doesn't work, there will be many failures along the way to developing effective psychedelic treatment options. If it fails we can move on to either other dosing regimens or other compounds altogether.

Also, I don't know how "incredibly" high people will be getting, as they are looking for the lowest effective dose. It wouldn't even be surprising to find lower doses can be more effective than higher ones.




I don't understand why you're freaking out over me using DMT in a non clinical setting, whatever that means. The building has to be labeled a clinic?

Also, DMT, I mean, I guess you could try to pretend you're remembering things that have come up. It is easy to remember visuals but if you ever had a "truth" told to you, do you remember what it is? Of course not

I have more experience with treatment resistant depression. This might help people who don't respond to Paxil or something

DMT does get one incredibly high, it is a very powerful psychedelic. At low doses i expect it to do nothing

They would be better off doing microdoses of LSD and talking with a therapist. That works, might as well increase that research


--------------------
Save the psilocy bees! <3
Intermediate chemist. Future underground psychedelic healing shaman. Amateur mycologist.  Musician with no songs out, but songs written. MAPS supporter. Avid gamer. Very introverted. Usually sleeping on a drown of downers, and thats it.


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: skOsH]
    #27082827 - 12/10/20 08:39 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Freaking out? Is that what I am doing?

What I mean is whatever "results" are self-recorded by some guy smoking DMT in his basement can not be equated to the results achieved by clinicians administering a focused treatment regimen, that includes therapy, in a controlled environment. Yes, set and setting matter but its more about the metrics, how results are assessed, and objectivity.

I am intimately familiar with DMT and know what it does, I don't know what doses the patients will be receiving and I guess you could say even threshold affects could constitute "incredibly" high compared to baseline...but relative to normal recreational dosing, no I don't think the patients will be getting incredibly high.

And for the following therapy session to be profoundly different and more effective than normal the only thing you need to "remember" from the preceding DMT session is what you were feeling and thinking during it. There's a lot more to DMT than just visuals, or getting so stupid high you think you are conversing with some extra-dimensional being with your brain so scrambled you can't even remember it. It's pretty easy to remember the results of introspection on light to moderate doses.

As for the rest, I'm not getting into it anymore. Beyond the, what should be obvious, fact that what works/doesn't work for you may not be the same for everyone else...I'm past the days of trying to explain to people why their anecdotal experiences are not the end all be all regarding a drugs affect on the general population and their medical utility and that their experiences may not correlate with the results gained through experimental trials on a sample of patients...especially at doses and conditions which may not mirror theirs.


Edited by Holybullshit (12/10/20 08:57 PM)


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: morrowasted]
    #27083872 - 12/11/20 01:37 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Do you guys think DMT would make a good introduction to psychedelics? I honestly don't know. Sometimes I think an experience so intense yet brief that it doesn't have the space or time to be negative might just be the right recipe for healing.





Outside of these studies, like if giving a friend a "taste" of what psychedelics are like, I do feel DMT (vaped/smoked) can be used as an introduction to psychedelics...kinda. A light dose of smoked DMT can give one a brief idea of what the headspace is like and other sensations & aspects of "tripping". I've def considered giving a mild dose of smoked/vaped DMT to family & friends that haven't experienced any other psychedelic before, as a way to briefly dip their toes into the waters.

But the short duration of smoked DMT along with the nature of mild doses of DMT just doesn't really stand up to what a proper full dose and full on 4 to 8+ hour experience is like with long lasting psychedelics (or DMT with an MAOI). And with light doses of smoked DMT I find them to mostly just be visual, there isn't all that much else going on within my mind/cognition.


My own personal experience...I too haven't got much of anything at all from DMT by itself (with no maoi involved), I smoke DMT purely for the novelty of it all because there's nothing else like it, I mostly "just want to see what happens" lol. The experience is far to brief and rapid to really pull anything from it. And with anything beyond a mild dose the experience is usually extremely intense and chaotic and disorienting and "alien"...In general I don't even find smoked DMT to be "psychedelic", it is something else entirely once one gets much beyond a mild dose.

And the nature of DMT by itself with no MAOI involved, again from my own experience, I don't find it to be all that introspective or reflective like mushrooms or LSD can be. I find it is really lacking in that area with mild doses & no MAOI involved.

DMT with a MAO inhibitor like caapi or rue though....I certainly find there to be an immense amount of potential there! DMT with an MAOI catalyzes an experience that is much more like mushrooms IME (versus DMT by itself). The experience is much much slower and drawn out and has more qualities of introspection and reflection and addressing issues one has to work on and in general I find there to be more "direction" to the experience.


With all that said...I do feel there is potential for mild doses of DMT to help in therapy sessions for depression and I'm all for folks exploring different tools that can be used. But I don't think mild doses of DMT through an IV has anywhere as much potential as mushrooms or LSD or DMT paired with an MAOI. But perhaps DMT thru an IV will be a tool that can be used in certain situations where the others aren't ideal.

Is the patient going to have to sit with a needle/IV stuck in their arm through out the entire therapy session though? And every time they go to therapy they're going to have to get poked with a needle? That just doesn't seem to be the most cozy situation to be in, but that is how ketamine therapy is done so :shrug: .





-OM

.


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: openmind]
    #27083880 - 12/11/20 01:44 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Yeah, I don't think DMT is a good starter psychedelic. Maybe if that person has experience with drugs in general just not tryptamines. Otherwise not in general, but if you know the individual and think you can assess their preparedness then give it a go.

Even at lower doses the fast come up of DMT could be overwhelming to people. With oral tryps like shrooms you get the giggly, happy come up to ease you into the visuals and trippy headspace. With DMT you are just instantly blasted into another reality, which can be a distraction from enjoying it and stressful on the mind.

And then there's the problem of dosing, it can be a little difficult to get the dose just right even without factoring in how much technique and lung capacity can alter how much DMT actual gets into the bloodstream. You don't want the dose to be too high, but in being too cautious it might be hard to dose them enough.

I also agree with openmind that the short duration of action of smoked DMT doesn't do tryptamines justice. I think having ample time to enjoy the experience, spend time on introspection, appreciate the world around you, and converse with others outweighs the benefit of minimizing the risk of a bad trip lasting hours.


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: Holybullshit] * 1
    #27084099 - 12/11/20 04:47 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Maybe you guys should look into (if haven't already) Dr. Rick Strassman's work on DMT.
YouTube video


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: openmind] * 1
    #27084354 - 12/11/20 07:08 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

openmind,

maybe we could hypothesize that in order for a psychedelic experience to have therapeutic value, a certain level of default mode network activity must be taking place.

We know that serotonergic psychedelics reduce brain activity in the default mode network:

Quote:

In neuroscience, the default mode network (DMN), also default network, or default state network, is a large-scale brain network primarily composed of the medial prefrontal cortex, posterior cingulate cortex/precuneus and angular gyrus. It is best known for being active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering. It can also be active during detailed thoughts related to external task performance.[3] Other times that the DMN is active include when the individual is thinking about others, thinking about themselves, remembering the past, and planning for the future.




But it seems to me that in order for the "cognitive" aspect of the psychedelic experience to occur, as you said, there needs to be SOME DMN activity. If you can't consider the feeling of timelessness with relation to prior experiences of time because you're not really considering anything at all, the potential for those eureka moments that are a hallmark characteristic of psychedelics, in my mind, isn't really there.

My experiences with DMT are similar to yours, so I'll be interested to see what the outcome of the study is. It would be fascinating to really pinpoint why mushrooms are more therapeutically effective than DMT- if they turn out to be, of course.


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: morrowasted]
    #27088231 - 12/14/20 05:55 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I do find it to be useful as a reset tool. Maybe not as much as Psilo, but it’s def something positive and I mean I don’t think I’ve ever had a dmt trip where it was worse on the way back than before the trip. I do think it boosts mood post-trip

It is true that there’s not much time/room for introspection and it’s not like a typical oral wholesome psychedelic experience but I think on a biological/chemical basis alone it prolly does have some “ssri-ish” antidepressant effects like most psychs. I dunno I always recall a newfound sense of wonder after the trip. A week later, sure it’s prolly gone, but it’s still helpful

I mean I also find things like adderall can help (Lethargic type) depression, and in these cases I think dmt is a better option.


--------------------
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It's bright and blue and shimmering.
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27103420 - 12/23/20 04:16 AM (25 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
With oral tryps like shrooms you get the giggly, happy come up to ease you




Would love to have a come up that was like this...


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #27103907 - 12/23/20 12:34 PM (25 days, 14 hours ago)

I know theres some anxiety, and perhaps nausea, at the very start for a lot of peoe, but that generally fades into a type of euphoria as the drug takes affect but before the strong visuals and following mind fuck. If you continue to have strong anxiety all the way through it's coming from you, you are too much in your head and psyching yourself out, you can't let go... Now imagine someone like that takes a blast of DMT, it wouldn't be good


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Re: Psychedelic drug DMT to be trialled in UK to treat depression [Re: Holybullshit] * 1
    #27104219 - 12/23/20 03:19 PM (25 days, 11 hours ago)

My advice has been to a select few at that point of trepidation...is that.

By sitting here with this implement and this substance you have already commited to wanting the experience...go willingly or don't go at all.


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