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OfflinePossum-Pie
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Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block
    #27080024 - 12/09/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

After 1 week in the grow room there is no popcorning, growth, or mushrooms on my 1st Shiitake block. It broke in half when I was removing it from the bag revealing that the mycelium only grew on the outside 1/2 inch of the block. ---Spawn jar looked normal
-Blocks were 80% Hardwood pellets 20% Oat bran with correct amount of water such that squeezing only produced 1 drop.
-Sterilized 2.5 hours at 15psi, cooled overnight, inoculated with grain spawn and sealed with heat sealer.
-Mycelium growth was normal and within 1 month most of visible block was white. After 8 weeks, browning started that I took to be normal but it never progressed.  After 9 weeks and no change of appearance, I took one bag, opened it and placed it in grow room.  I was alarmed to see how easily the block broke and revealed a core that was mycelium free. No sign of infection on any block, even the block open to air in grow room. Smell was earthy such as wet sawdust not the smell of mold. My other two bags are on the shelf unopened but I hold no hope as they have stalled also.
As an aside, the Hen of the Woods that I fruited used the exact same substrate from the same batch and it is producing "brains" and growing wonderfully. Same sterile technique, same ingredients, etc.

Any suggestions as to what went wrong? First thought is contamination, but as I said no sign of it.





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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27080047 - 12/09/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It was fucked when it didnt fully colonize


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That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
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OfflinePossum-Pie
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: The Mycologist]
    #27080131 - 12/09/20 09:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, I know...The million dollar question is what caused it to colonize the outer 1/2 inch then just stop.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27080281 - 12/09/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Bacteria/contam or not enough time in fruiting.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: The Mycologist]
    #27080869 - 12/09/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I think SHROOMSISAY already answered this question in the other thread when he said you probably had the water content wrong, too much water.  I agree with that.  Squeezing isn't really the best test, follow his advice and figure it out right.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Forrester]
    #27081010 - 12/09/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
I think SHROOMSISAY already answered this question in the other thread when he said you probably had the water content wrong, too much water.  I agree with that.  Squeezing isn't really the best test, follow his advice and figure it out right.





I determined the exact water content of the blocks. It is 56%...slightly dryer than the recommended 60% but only by 6%.  Is this small difference really the culprit? Anyway definitely not "too wet" I've seen the geri-rigged contraption that the owner of "Mossy Creek Mushrooms" uses with the string and bucket and that thing is definitely off by + or - 6% on any given block and he uses it for commercial use. I'm getting ready to try again and will make water content exactly 60% this time and see what happens.


Edited by Possum-Pie (12/09/20 06:59 PM)


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27081020 - 12/09/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Just curious how did you determine the water content after the fact?

as far as southwest mushrooms, he's using a flow meter to measure liters of water, no way to tell how accurate his device is from the video. But on a huge scale, if you're off by a few litres its no biggy but when you're making 3 bags and you're off by a few litres it shows.


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OfflinePossum-Pie
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: deadmandave]
    #27081041 - 12/09/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
Just curious how did you determine the water content after the fact?

as far as southwest mushrooms, he's using a flow meter to measure liters of water, no way to tell how accurate his device is from the video. But on a huge scale, if you're off by a few liters its no biggy but when you're making 3 bags and you're off by a few litres it shows.



I actually used 2 methods. First I weighed out the exact weight of pellets per 5lb bag in grams. Then exact weight of bran per 5lb bag in grams. Then because water is 1g/1ml I used 1400g as the weight of the water that I put in each 5lb bag. Simple algebra gave me about 56%.  Then because my bags are not going to fruit anyway, I cut open a bag, weighed it, then dried it completely in the oven until it lost no more weight. Divided the final dehydrated weight by the starting weight to come up with 58% water content.  I am assuming the first method I used is a bit more accurate, but regardless, I am using a little less than 60% water content.
I corrected myself, you are right Southwest Mushrooms has a high tech flow meter, it was Mossy Creek who has the bucket and string.


Edited by Possum-Pie (12/09/20 07:14 PM)


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27081130 - 12/09/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That is not the way you figure out the water content. You are going by weight that will not give you the proper water content. If it was that simple no one would use the microwave to figure out the water content. If you remember the weights remake a bag and then use this...

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26632628

To figure out the water content. I bet it is off. You want a percentage of moisture not of weight.

Of course, if you think the bag did not lose any water while colonizing for 2 months then OK.

I am not saying this was your problem but start from the beginning


Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (12/09/20 08:33 PM)


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27081340 - 12/09/20 11:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My pellets are 7% water.
So how much water should I add per KG of pellets?

Right now I just get with 1090g pellets and 1350 water.
Or 2180g pellets and 2720g water on big bags.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Bsdgaou]
    #27081350 - 12/09/20 11:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

You have to dehydrate your sub to get the moisture right. If you follow the way I do it you will only have to do it once. Then you will know how much fuel pellets and how much water to put in each bag. Take an hour and figure it out. After figuring it out you will never have to wonder if your sub is too wet or too dry you will know where it is.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27081592 - 12/10/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I like your idea of making the scoops, that makes things much easier.

Finding a percentage of water in any substrate is fairly easy. You can either dehydrate your ingredients before you begin by oven (or microwave oven) then add a proportion of water to make 60%, or you can do what I did and dehydrate an already made substrate with the water already added in.  Water percentage will always equal total weight-dehydrated ingredients weight divided by 100. Thus 100 grams of wet substrate-40 grams of dehydrated substrate = 60 grams of water taken off. 60 grams is 60% of 100 grams. I agree that doing this once and keeping track makes it simpler.  I've done this method with logs that I was going to inoculate. Taken a 1/2 inch slice from the log, weighed it, dehydrated it in the oven, re-weighed it to get a water content of the log. Takes a long time but is very accurate.
https://forestry.ca.uky.edu/sites/forestry.ca.uky.edu/files/for82.pdf


Edited by Possum-Pie (12/10/20 05:41 AM)


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27081644 - 12/10/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I did not read your thread completely  when I answered.:facepalm: My question is have you successfully fruited this shiitake before? What culture did you obtain , is it named? Where did it come from?


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Quadman]
    #27081962 - 12/10/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Another question: what the incubation temp was?
If too warm, it may have compromised the inner substrate.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Quadman]
    #27082398 - 12/10/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
I did not read your thread completely  when I answered.:facepalm: My question is have you successfully fruited this shiitake before? What culture did you obtain , is it named? Where did it come from?



I've done logs before, not bags. It was from Liquidfungi.com Shiitake 3782. Spawned wonderfully and completely took over the rye seed jar.
Transferred to fruiting bag and kept at 68 degrees Fahrenheit days/62 degrees nights. Sat on shelves next to Hen of the Woods which I started the same day and which are about 1 week away from grow room and look incredible. I tend not to blame the inoculant as it did do a good job with my fruiting jars so it was viable without contaminants. Temp might be an issue, I know 68 is the high end of ideal, Maybe next time I'll move them to basement to fruit.
I'm not being argumentative with folks, but I'm sure the water content isn't the issue. Shiitake are just not that sensitive to exact water percentage as long as they aren't super wet or super dry. 60% +/- 8% simply won't prevent them from fruiting, it can effect size/shape of the mushroom however especially if you over-hydrate once they near full size.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27082801 - 12/10/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My whole point is if you would have just done the tek for moisture content no one would be questioning if that is a problem. Wrong moisture content is one of the major reasons for failure. Once you know how much water and fuel pellets to put in each bag you can grow mushrooms forever and never have to worry about it again. I never had near the success I am having now when I did not know the right way to figure out the water content. An hour will save you a ton of time in the future.

If I have a problem I know it is not my moisture content.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27083267 - 12/11/20 12:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well I am stumped. At 10 weeks 3782 is completely brown and popcorned for me. Usually have problems with it wanting to fruit sooner.:shrug:
I did have a culture that absolutely sucked is reason for asking.


Edited by Quadman (12/11/20 12:04 AM)


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27083291 - 12/11/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Possum-Pie said:
I'm not being argumentative with folks, but I'm sure the water content isn't the issue. Shiitake are just not that sensitive to exact water percentage as long as they aren't super wet or super dry. 60% +/- 8% simply won't prevent them from fruiting, it can effect size/shape of the mushroom however especially if you over-hydrate once they near full size.




You're right. Shiitake is not that sensitive to water content. I still think it's a bacterial issue. Either sterilization, either spawn quality.

:frenchie:


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: frog48]
    #27083361 - 12/11/20 02:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

It could definitely be a bacteria issue. You can be clean and not get bacteria though. If you don't test your sub and it is a moisture problem then you will keep having the same problem until you test and make sure you are at the right moisture.


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OfflinePossum-Pie
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: frog48]
    #27083398 - 12/11/20 03:16 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

frog48 said:
Quote:

Possum-Pie said:
I'm not being argumentative with folks, but I'm sure the water content isn't the issue. Shiitake are just not that sensitive to exact water percentage as long as they aren't super wet or super dry. 60% +/- 8% simply won't prevent them from fruiting, it can effect size/shape of the mushroom however especially if you over-hydrate once they near full size.




You're right. Shiitake is not that sensitive to water content. I still think it's a bacterial issue. Either sterilization, either spawn quality.

:frenchie:




Frog48, Your observation about poor sterilization makes sense in that the outside of the bag would be sterile but the center may have had contaminents that didn't get killed, thus the complete Shiitake takeover of the outer 1 inch but nothing any deeper.  Thing is, It was standard sterilization of 15psi for 2 1/2 hours, not even botulism can withstand that.
So perhaps contaminants such as bacteria...the Shiitake spawn was aggressive in taking over the substrate and the whole bag was covered in a few weeks. Whatever contaminant was there was a slow growing but aggressive one. I have no laminar flow hood, I use a very small bathroom wiped down with alcohol and door closed for no air flow but this is less than ideal. I doubt the bacteria or fungi was in the substrate, I used the same batch for my Hen of the woods and it is fine. It would have been introduced between unsealing spawn jar and mixing it into bags I heat-seal my bags so it was contaminated before they were sealed.
I just started 3 new bags of the Shiitake 3 days ago and it is already spreading in the bags so We shall see.


Edited by Possum-Pie (12/11/20 03:26 AM)


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27083474 - 12/11/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

May be the bag didn't survive the pc-cycle. That happens often. But if you don't use a flow hood I think it's just wet spot that took over.
Did you make the spawn yourself or was it commercial spawn? Make a glove box that will improve significantly your success rate.

:frenchie:


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: frog48]
    #27084072 - 12/11/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

frog48 said:
May be the bag didn't survive the pc-cycle. That happens often. But if you don't use a flow hood I think it's just wet spot that took over.
Did you make the spawn yourself or was it commercial spawn? Make a glove box that will improve significantly your success rate.

:frenchie:




Thanks, I made the spawn in Pressure Cooked canning jars. I have a pinhole drilled in the lid and when the jar cools, I stick a sterile needle into the lid and squirt in inoculant.  Then I cover the hole with tape.  Jar inoculated beautifully and no sign of contaminants in the spawn jar when I opened it.  The most "unclean" thing I did was dumping from jar to bags. That should have been in front of a laminar hood. The bags were immediately hot-sealed after pressure cooking and there was no holes noted at that time.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27084125 - 12/11/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Buy polyfill for your spawn jars. Drill a 1/4 hole in the lid and stuff with the polyfill then heat the needle to sterilize and right before you push the needle through the polyfill push out a couple of drops of liquid to cool the needle.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27085001 - 12/12/20 03:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Buy polyfill for your spawn jars. Drill a 1/4 hole in the lid and stuff with the polyfill then heat the needle to sterilize and right before you push the needle through the polyfill push out a couple of drops of liquid to cool the needle.



Thanks for the tip Shroomsisay01.  I'll give that a try next batch. Anyone have an idea of a contaminant that isn't easily seen? Looking the remaining bags over, I see no discoloration, webbing, etc. to indicate what pathogen ruined it. I don't ever heat the needles as I use sterile needles every time. These have been sterilized for human injection by the manufacturer. As I mentioned before, my greatest risk for contaminants is during the transfer of spawn jar contents to bags. Glove box or laminar flow with HEPA filter would solve that, I was "cutting corners" as I've not had a problem with other mushrooms on grow blocks until I tried Shiitake.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27085582 - 12/12/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I hate to tell you but you are still having problems with shiitake. I would still flame sterile the needle. Why risk everything for about 3 or 4 seconds just buy a touch liter and you can do it quickly.

Bacteria can be hard to see.

Check your PM's I am sending you something.


Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (12/12/20 11:51 AM)


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27085614 - 12/12/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

When you try with the polyfill you have to cover the lids with a square of aluminum foil or the polyfill will soak up water. That will drip off the lid of your PC.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #27085997 - 12/12/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

After watching some wonderful videos that SHROOMSISAY01 recommended, I discovered the cause of my early Shiitake death.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I overfilled the small bags. There was no room for O2 and after the mycelium reached a critical development, the lack of gas exchange killed it. This is why the mycelium didn't ever reach the inner core of the substrate, it suffocated to death. I want to thank everyone for the suggestions, I'm new to indoor mushroom cultivation and it's a learning curve.  On the positive note, My Hen of the Woods are doing great in the grow room and in 10-14 days I should have my first flush. Next batch I'll be more careful with moisture content, sterile technique and headspace for gas exchange and hopefully have a harvest.


Edited by Possum-Pie (12/12/20 03:45 PM)


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27086086 - 12/12/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Also thanks for posting this. I've been learning just by watching the thread 👍


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: taku]
    #27086252 - 12/12/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

taku said:
Also thanks for posting this. I've been learning just by watching the thread 👍



You got it...we all learn from mistakes.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27087091 - 12/13/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

How overfilled were the bags? and were they a 0.2 or 0.5 filter?
Some shiitake growers use the 0.2 due to the long colonization period, but is 0.5 better? I recently switched over. So far 0.5 bags appear to colonize quicker.


What videos were recommended? Would love to gain some insights as well. Shroomsisay01?


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27087554 - 12/13/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Possum-Pie said:
Quote:

taku said:
Also thanks for posting this. I've been learning just by watching the thread 👍



You got it...we all learn from mistakes.




Mistakes what's that? I don't know if I learn from my mistakes or not. As soon as I make one. I will let you all know if I learn anything.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: junior c]
    #27090038 - 12/15/20 08:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

junior c said:
How overfilled were the bags? and were they a 0.2 or 0.5 filter?
Some shiitake growers use the 0.2 due to the long colonization period, but is 0.5 better? I recently switched over. So far 0.5 bags appear to colonize quicker.




I've seen green mold form directly below the filter patch when I used .5 bags for shiitake.  That's why I would always stick to the .2


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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Forrester]
    #27090153 - 12/15/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

junior c said:
How overfilled were the bags? and were they a 0.2 or 0.5 filter?
Some shiitake growers use the 0.2 due to the long colonization period, but is 0.5 better? I recently switched over. So far 0.5 bags appear to colonize quicker.




I've seen green mold form directly below the filter patch when I used .5 bags for shiitake.  That's why I would always stick to the .2




Yes, I had b/g mold grow right under a 0.5 filter on Miatike fruiting block. Luckily the Mycelium was far enough along and fruiting that the mold didn't spread. My understanding is that b/c Shiitake take so long they need the 0.2 micron filter rather than the 0.5 micron? Is this correct?


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27090676 - 12/15/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

comparing 0.5 vs. 0.2.

This 2000 paper comes to mind:
http://www.pubhort.org/ejhs/2000/file_3406.pdf
"CO2 Output During Incubation and Crop Yield of Shiitake".
They used small holes instead of a filter patch and browned out of the bag (do people still do this?). Finding was more holes/gas exchange, up to a certain point, (+) correlated with yield.

sound bites:
"It can be expected that a heavy impediment of gas exchange has a  negative influence on the crop yield."
"An insufficient permeability of the bags causes a reduction of the CO2 output and connected with it, a reduction of the metabolic activity of the shiitake mycelium"
"first flush is more affected than the total yield."
"The loss due to infections in the incubation period were less than 2%"

Also worth considering the CO2 concentration gradient. What's the CO2 of the incubating room and the importance of mitigating high CO2 to keep the gases flowing in the bag head space. As observed by possum-pie, reduced head space in the bag can be detrimental.

Last spring, when out of filter patch bags, I attached cut out/recycled 0.2 filters to a modified syringe tube and ziptied them to the top of a Uline poly bag. These bags didn't do so hot. With reduced 0.2 surface area, I'd consider them to be at the far low end of gas exchange.

Compared to 0.5. Is this too much exchange? Too much in the sense that it allows contams to enter or that it allows contams within the substrate that prefer more O2 to grow? Obviously the amount of supplementation would influence how much you can get away with.

I also occasionally see trich within 0.5 patch proximity.


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Re: Reconstructing what went wrong with Shiitake fruiting block [Re: Possum-Pie]
    #27095522 - 12/18/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Possum-Pie said:
My understanding is that b/c Shiitake take so long they need the 0.2 micron filter rather than the 0.5 micron? Is this correct?




Yes I would definitely go with .2 for that reason


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