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3some
Haagse Harry



Registered: 04/20/20
Posts: 278
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there?
#27076469 - 12/07/20 02:10 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know this sounds like paranoia but what we try so hard to stay anonymous might actually be the thing that gives us away.
Imagine this. All the VPN users are either commercial interest trying to protect their business interest, Netflix users trying to see what's available the other side of the pond, or people who has a reason for trying to stay invisible. That's self selective group if you ask me. Captive market?
-------------------- Ask me about growing yeast, mold and bacteria. I'm very experienced. The first post any newbie should read even before acquiring spores: Pastywhyte's Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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Study The CNS
Anecdotal Subtext


Registered: 11/17/20
Posts: 1,588
Loc: Mexico
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some] 1
#27078233 - 12/08/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there?
Guaranteed.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some]
#27085214 - 12/12/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
3some said: I know this sounds like paranoia but what we try so hard to stay anonymous might actually be the thing that gives us away.
Imagine this. All the VPN users are either commercial interest trying to protect their business interest, Netflix users trying to see what's available the other side of the pond, or people who has a reason for trying to stay invisible. That's self selective group if you ask me. Captive market?
I am sure various security agencies run various VPN's. There are also some out there that are run by cool people. But they don't have to be in on it, the government can sniff the traffic in and out, and if they aren't introducing random delay, it's easy to see whose inbound traffic is connected to which outbound traffic.
Same with tor - they can't see what you are doing, but they can see that you are using it. They probably don't care though, unless you are using it at work on the work internet.
VPN's aren't designed for great security. They are fine if you are buying drugs, and would probably even protect people who sell drugs, trade child porn or send bomb threats, assuming they don't keep logs that can be subpoenaed.
But if you are going to hack the pentagon or organize a terrorist attack you'll need something more secure. A long range wifi antenna pointed at a public hotspot could be very difficult indeed (probably impossible) even for the NSA to track you down - as long as you use random MAC addresses and never use the same hotspot twice.
When I was breaking into computers what I would do is hack various computers in various continents, modify them so they don't keep logs, and bounce through them in random order. If you have a lot of them (like a botnet with many thousands), the chance of you being able to be traced is 0%.
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Narrator
Strangest in the night



Registered: 11/30/20
Posts: 187
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some]
#27104469 - 12/23/20 04:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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If the VPN doesn't keep logs how could anyone tell how you had used the VPN?
Are you saying you're paranoid the VPNs are The Man?
Every cop already knows a street where they can go and make as many arrests as they have time for. Fishing for possible criminals by sifting through big data seems an unnecessary step.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: Narrator]
#27105081 - 12/24/20 12:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Narrator said: If the VPN doesn't keep logs how could anyone tell how you had used the VPN?
The packets coming in and leaving the VPN can be logged, often by places upstream of the VPN. By analyzing the timing of the packets coming in with the packets going out, the two data streams can be correlated.
Quote:
Are you saying you're paranoid the VPNs are The Man?
Paranoid no, but they are almost certainly.
Quote:
Every cop already knows a street where they can go and make as many arrests as they have time for. Fishing for possible criminals by sifting through big data seems an unnecessary step.
It wouldn't be used for mass arrests.
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Narrator
Strangest in the night



Registered: 11/30/20
Posts: 187
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: Anonymous #1]
#27106355 - 12/24/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous #1 said: It wouldn't be used for mass arrests.
I'm skeptical but walk me through what you think is happening.
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wabbey
hey there



Registered: 12/12/14
Posts: 541
Loc: milky way-earth-new zealand
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: Narrator]
#27165677 - 01/23/21 03:38 PM (3 years, 5 days ago) |
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i wouldn't be surprised
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fungusul
Fungus Kingdom


Registered: 07/16/20
Posts: 1,028
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: wabbey] 1
#27169679 - 01/25/21 06:29 PM (3 years, 3 days ago) |
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Assume that most of the VPN providers would cooperate with different agencies and keep logs. To mitigate this risk it's always a good idea to chain them and combine them with tor(known as tor over VPN). It might not be worth the effort, but that depends on your threat model.
A good source of information would be privacy tools io. Here are the vpn providers.
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3some
Haagse Harry



Registered: 04/20/20
Posts: 278
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: fungusul]
#27172124 - 01/27/21 02:07 AM (3 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
fungusul said: Assume that most of the VPN providers would cooperate with different agencies and keep logs. To mitigate this risk it's always a good idea to chain them and combine them with tor(known as tor over VPN). It might not be worth the effort, but that depends on your threat model.
A good source of information would be privacy tools io. Here are the vpn providers.
I read somewhere that using VPN and TOR together is counterproductive.
-------------------- Ask me about growing yeast, mold and bacteria. I'm very experienced. The first post any newbie should read even before acquiring spores: Pastywhyte's Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some] 1
#27172202 - 01/27/21 04:06 AM (3 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
3some said: I read somewhere that using VPN and TOR together is counterproductive.
Why would that be?
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nektar61
Into SporePlay



Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,241
Loc: Cube Satellite
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some]
#27172371 - 01/27/21 07:51 AM (3 years, 1 day ago) |
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Especially the free ones.
-------------------- -NEW? Start here.
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fungusul
Fungus Kingdom


Registered: 07/16/20
Posts: 1,028
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: nektar61] 2
#27172861 - 01/27/21 12:26 PM (3 years, 1 day ago) |
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Using vpn and tor adds an extra layer of protection. Please note that recommended combination is tor-over-vpn and not vpn-over-tor.
Connect first to a vpn and then connect to tor. Using vpn prevents the tor entry node from seeing your ISP address, so in case your tor traffic is de-anonymized, then your ISP address is still protected. With other words, your traffic goes laptop-->ISP-->VPN-->TOR-->Internet.
The easiest way to achieve this configuration, is to configure your router to route all traffic using a trusted VPN provider and on your laptop to open a tor browser. If you really want another layer of protection, you can always install another trusted vpn on your laptop, but that would be an overkill.
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nektar61
Into SporePlay



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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: fungusul] 1
#27174018 - 01/28/21 04:45 AM (3 years, 14 hours ago) |
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Quote:
fungusul said: Using vpn and tor adds an extra layer of protection. Please note that recommended combination is tor-over-vpn and not vpn-over-tor.
Connect first to a vpn and then connect to tor. Using vpn prevents the tor entry node from seeing your ISP address, so in case your tor traffic is de-anonymized, then your ISP address is still protected. With other words, your traffic goes laptop-->ISP-->VPN-->TOR-->Internet.
The easiest way to achieve this configuration, is to configure your router to route all traffic using a trusted VPN provider and on your laptop to open a tor browser. If you really want another layer of protection, you can always install another trusted vpn on your laptop, but that would be an overkill.
all true.
I would add that if you use the VPN on router for all traffic, don't use that also for traffic that is IDed to your name, like Gmail, twitter, facebook, tiktok, etc.
A lot of people who use VPNs don't understand that. You, fungusul, obviously do, but I'm posting this for people new to privacy.
Best of all is to have a separate computer you use only for stuff you don't want connected to your name. Hopefully running Linux, and kept up to date.
There's another reason it's good to have the VPN before Tor, to keep your ISP from knowing you use Tor.
ISPs rat out people with odd internet use, and Tor is more rare and more suspect than a VPN.
I would guess at least half of people under 40 use a VPN now. I think Tor use is far less than that, and a VPN seems less suspect than a VPN to the people who keep track of other people's internet use.
-------------------- -NEW? Start here.
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


Registered: 10/10/16
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Loc: Germany
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: nektar61] 1
#27174076 - 01/28/21 06:19 AM (3 years, 13 hours ago) |
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I have had this thought too. When people say use TOR with VPN I thought, well doesnt that totally defeat the purpose of TOR and deanonymizes me completely, at least to the VPN company? I dont know the technical details, whether they can also see *what* I am doing through TOR or only that I am. I also wonder about this if its a govenment owned VPN. I really like using them, but I fear especially the free VPNs might be. As a general rule, nothings free in life, like with facebook you pay with your data or attention (ads). Same would go for torrenting over VPN, which is not prosecuted that much though luckily. I know people who got busted for it though. I always blamed their internet provider, since others torrenting even more with other providers never got busted.
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: 3some]
#27174077 - 01/28/21 06:21 AM (3 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Quote:
3some said:
Quote:
fungusul said: Assume that most of the VPN providers would cooperate with different agencies and keep logs. To mitigate this risk it's always a good idea to chain them and combine them with tor(known as tor over VPN). It might not be worth the effort, but that depends on your threat model.
A good source of information would be privacy tools io. Here are the vpn providers.
I read somewhere that using VPN and TOR together is counterproductive.
elaborate/explain please?
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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LemonTekno
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/20
Posts: 121
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: polaritymind] 2
#27174598 - 01/28/21 01:19 PM (3 years, 6 hours ago) |
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From the linked resource:
Quote:
Should I use Tor and a VPN?
By using a VPN with Tor, you're creating essentially a permanent entry node, often with a money trail attached. This provides 0 additional benefit to you, while increasing the attack surface of your connection dramatically. If you wish to hide your Tor usage from your ISP or your government, Tor has a built-in solution for that: Tor bridges. Read more about Tor bridges and why using a VPN is not necessary.
https://www.privacytools.io/providers/vpn/#info
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fungusul
Fungus Kingdom


Registered: 07/16/20
Posts: 1,028
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: LemonTekno] 1
#27175266 - 01/28/21 09:02 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Tor bridges are used to hide tor traffic as normal traffic(using a regular protocol) in a country where vpn and tor are blocked.
The inherit problem with tor is that you don't know who is running bridges/exit/entry points in the tor network. Somebody controlling enough of the entry/exit nodes and having enough analytics resources, could do a traffic correlation and identify you.
Choosing a trusted vpn(not in 5-eyes countries) ensures that the cost of going after your ip address is getting higher. To increase that cost, you can chain 2-3 vpn providers. If a vpn provider is in a country not willing to cooperate, then nothing can force their hand, only the local authorities.
Paying a vpn provider using bitcoins/cash breaks the money link.
By using a vpn, you are in control of the entry point.
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Anonyman2021
Psilcybin Advocate


Registered: 02/08/21
Posts: 129
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: fungusul] 1
#27194578 - 02/09/21 12:13 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, the FBI ran a VPN on a carding forum before 'CarderPlanet' "A VPN FOR Carders By carders" it was actually logging everything ran by FBI.
You should assume every person is a Fed, and every computer is hacked or ran by the NSA.
Encrypt everything, Chain/Nest anonymity systems, and you'll be better off.
VPN + Tor etc
-------------------- Hi, this Shroomery account is about telling an honest truth about my personal experiences with Psilocybin Mushrooms, their role in my life, and their medicial benefits, supported by scientific studies. Also, I am advocating for Psilocybin Mushroom Decriminilization in the USA and Internationally, using Scientific Studies and Historical data, and personal accounts stories to detail the safety and medicinal and personal benefit of consuming Psilocybin Mushrooms. Feel free to PM about any mushroom or computer security related topic, I study CyberSecurity, Anonymity and Privacy Technology professionally.
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junk_f00d


Registered: 12/04/15
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: fungusul]
#27205449 - 02/14/21 12:34 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Narrator said: If the VPN doesn't keep logs how could anyone tell how you had used the VPN?
All VPNs must log to some extent, or they couldn't provide customer service, debug, or a million other things.
Quote:
fungusul said: Assume that most of the VPN providers would cooperate with different agencies and keep logs. To mitigate this risk it's always a good idea to chain them and combine them with tor(known as tor over VPN). It might not be worth the effort, but that depends on your threat model.
A good source of information would be privacy tools io. Here are the vpn providers.
Why chain them if they can't be trusted in the first place? It's just a wider surface area of vectors and potential snoopers then.
Quote:
fungusul said: Using vpn and tor adds an extra layer of protection. Please note that recommended combination is tor-over-vpn and not vpn-over-tor.
Connect first to a vpn and then connect to tor. Using vpn prevents the tor entry node from seeing your ISP address, so in case your tor traffic is de-anonymized, then your ISP address is still protected. With other words, your traffic goes laptop-->ISP-->VPN-->TOR-->Internet.
My problem with this argument is that even if the first entry node having your IP was an issue (and it's not, if you disagree please explain), is that with a VPN you're still in the same situation, except now they have your VPNs IP. It's no different, so the argument doesn't hold water.
Quote:
fungusul said: The inherit problem with tor is that you don't know who is running bridges/exit/entry points in the tor network. Somebody controlling enough of the entry/exit nodes and having enough analytics resources, could do a traffic correlation and identify you.
If this was a realistic issue, Tor wouldn't work. There has not been a single documented case of someone being identified in this manner. If this were possible, they would not waste that surprise on a mushroom grower. That card would be saved for some international level shit.
~~~~~~~
I think the only potential benefit of a VPN (for Tor use) is to blend is as more normal traffic on your home network and that your VPN may be less likely to look into Tor traffic. Like with sterile work, extra steps generally introduce vectors, and I believe a VPN does the same.
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fungusul
Fungus Kingdom


Registered: 07/16/20
Posts: 1,028
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Re: Do you think some government agency owns some of the VPN out there? [Re: junk_f00d]
#27206224 - 02/14/21 07:52 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Depends very much on what they log. A reputable privacy VPN would not keep logs, and if they keep them for a short period of time to identify issues, the logs could not be used to identify an user because they are not containing by design such information. Good VPN providers allows you to pay in an anonymous way.
Chaining VPN providers increases the cost of finding your IP address. Assuming tor was compromised, an attacker needs to find, starting with tor entry node, one by one, information about each VPN node, correlate in time the information about multiple shared IP addresses. The IP addresses for each VPN provider are coming from a shared pooled, so your IP address is shared between multiple users at different moments in time. This investigation takes time, money, and a cooperative VPN provider(without attacker needs to subpoena). More than 3 VPN providers is not practical because of speed. Also remember that, your tor browser encrypts the packages in an onion encrypted fashion(3 layers of encryption, first node knows to extract the first onion layer, second the second layer, third the third layer), so the traffic cannot be snooped by your VPN providers.
You don't need to trust them with your personal information, they know nothing about you if you payed for their services using anonymous method payments like bitcoin/monero/cash. Of course if you pay them with a credit card or any traceable money, there is no point using more than one.
Your internet provider knows where you live and it's from the same country as you. Most of the time they are happy to spy on you even without getting an official request.
A VPN provider can be from a different continent with no relationship with your country. Most of the time, they have no interest in spying on you unless they are a honeypot or they have received an official request.
The point of using a VPN is to anonymize your entry point to the internet because you can pay for it in an anonymous way.
If you are a target of NSA or other agencies, stay off the internet. If you are a happy shroomer you are probably OK without any chaining
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