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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: wolf8312]
    #27083260 - 12/10/20 11:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

jordan peterson is a christian. He's far too religious for my taste.


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE]
    #27083377 - 12/11/20 02:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
hah i love frasier :P




Me too! :smile:


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #27083438 - 12/11/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah but he doesnt take the bible as to be literally true, he has interesting things to say because hes not a fundamentalist and is actually critical of those people. That being said he can be too attached to that culture to the point where it clouds his judgement on certain topics.


--------------------
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Draw DMT!

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Edited by SleepyE (12/11/20 06:42 AM)


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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #27083462 - 12/11/20 05:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

He's not a christian he says so in his talks. He states that society needed Christian values to become what it is today, kinda true in a sense imo...


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: LSD-25]
    #27083499 - 12/11/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah its seen more as the foundation of society's structure. And he said mystics like us are here to upgrade the bugs in the foundation.
He talks about the difference between the traditionalists and the mystics, I thought it was an interesting concept


--------------------
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Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (12/11/20 06:40 AM)


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: LosTresOjos] * 1
    #27083520 - 12/11/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LosTresOjos said:
jordan peterson is a christian. He's far too religious for my taste.




Hey, there you are! Wondering when you would show up and remind us of your aversion to Peterson!

(Just kidding, love you man :heart:)

But I don't think that being a "christian", if he indeed is one, should disqualify him from being heard. I too am not fond of institutional christianity but I think he has some rather interesting things to say. Yes, many of them are simple, and yes some of them might be wrong, but no human should be expected to be perfect.

And maybe he doesn't having anything of value to say, in your opinion. I totally respect that. I simply believe that we should especially listen to people we might not like/agree with so that we can expand our understanding, even if that understanding ends up being "Yep, he's still wrong/boring/simple/etc".


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Socrateshroom] * 1
    #27083559 - 12/11/20 07:46 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hes by no means infallible and does have crap takes on some topics, but a lot of stuff he touches on can be thought provoking and useful


--------------------
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Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (12/11/20 07:46 AM)


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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE]
    #27084752 - 12/11/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I have no issues with peterson, he can think what he likes. I've heard many of his talks and although i do feel that he is correct on many core aspects i also think he is harmful on others. Like pushing his christian values on those looking for help. But he is an interesting guy to listen too, considering the influence he has.

This nonsense of christian values is straight bullshit. As if we didn't know murder and stealing was wrong until dear old moses came down. please.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: LosTresOjos] * 1
    #27085680 - 12/12/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Don't get me started on Peterson, ah too late...

he's a charlatan and there is no reason to take any of his statements at face value. What little of his writing is sound, is just common sense self-help stuff that didn't originate with him, and the rest of it is conservatism mixed with conspiracy thinking.

Any academic who talks about 'social marxism', identity politics and post-modernism is either being dishonest or talking out of his ass. Those things are not interchangeable, and are a central part of his talks. Also he pushes very conservative traditional values, and most egregious of all never makes any open and clear arguments, everything he says is couched in a faux-intellectualism while being phrased in such a way he can back out of any argument without having to defend it.

Again, a couple of his points are valid, but as a figure he's an embarrassment


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Ezuma]
    #27085740 - 12/12/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

For me I'm less interested in the politics stuff, and the  boogeyman he talks about. I dont really care about politics and consider myself rather apolitical.
Though to be accurate he is technically a classical liberal and not conservative. If he was conservative he'd be saying stuff like "psychedelics are bad mkay."


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OfflineLosTresOjos
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE]
    #27085793 - 12/12/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

classical liberal? like the ones that were pro-slavery.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #27085810 - 12/12/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well I doubt hes pro slavery.
Hes economically conservative and socially liberal.
:shrug:


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Draw DMT!

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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #27085881 - 12/12/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
For me I'm less interested in the politics stuff, and the  boogeyman he talks about. I dont really care about politics and consider myself rather apolitical.
Though to be accurate he is technically a classical liberal and not conservative. If he was conservative he'd be saying stuff like "psychedelics are bad mkay."




he is not a classical liberal, he claims to be one, but one's political ideology isn't determined by one's assertion but by the arguments they make and support. It's a classic tactic used by many of today's conservatives, which he absolutely is by the Canadian political climate's standard. He also jumped to prominence by misrepresenting Canadian legislation in regards to trans pronouns.

I understand why people might like him if they take him at his word, but I've watched him and read him enough to know he is an opportunist and a snake, and lies all over the place.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Ezuma]
    #27085897 - 12/12/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Tbh I dont really know too much about that legislation other than he believed it was compelled speech and against his free speech principles, but he has said that he would use someones preferred pronouns when asked specifically.


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Edited by SleepyE (12/12/20 02:44 PM)


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE]
    #27086068 - 12/12/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
Tbh I dont really know too much about that legislation other than he believed it was compelled speech and against his free speech principles, but he has said that he would use someones preferred pronouns when asked specifically.




he just very much misrepresented the bill that was being passed, as all the bill really did was include trans people as a class that it could be considered a hate crime to discriminate against, it didn't however in any way legislate what pronouns must be used which he made a leap to, and notably it hasn't lead to anyone being punished for mis-gendering.

Kind of a derailment, but as a figure he really irks me because of his dishonesty, and its disappointing to me whenever an advocate for psychedelics tarnishes their name by association


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Ezuma] * 1
    #27086082 - 12/12/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, i  can understand where you are coming from. Il have to look into the details of all to make up my own mind. But yeah i dunno he seems open minded in some ways to me and i feel like people are more likely to evolve opinions overtime with that mindset.
I mean no reason to take most of what he says seriously, i just find him to have an interesting perspective on topics i was interested in.


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Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (12/12/20 04:51 PM)


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #27086117 - 12/12/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
yeah, i  can understand where you are coming from. Il have to look into the details of all to make up my own mind. But yeah i dunno he seems open minded in some ways to me and i feel like people are more likely to evolve opinions overtime with that mindset.
I mean no reason to take most of what he says seriously, i just find him to have an interesting perspective on topics i was interested in.




totally fair, obviously a lot of people do get something out of him and I think its best to hear people out and then form an opinion rather than like, cancel them or whatever :thumbup:


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Ezuma]
    #27086122 - 12/12/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

of course! i stopped looking into it because it looked like a rabbit hole of just different perspectives going back and forth, i got tired of it and lost interest.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: SleepyE]
    #27236032 - 03/03/21 09:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

So I thought about it and I decided to repost Josh's opinions with my rebuttal.
I kind of feel like if hes being truthful about the reactions, then a lot of it is probably him attracting those scenarios and only seeing that because its kind of like a rorschach test hes looking at that reflects his biases, similar to how people analyze and see an event differently based on political leanings.
I recently heard an interesting idea from jordan peterson saying that cultures (including ones that used psychedelics in the past) acted out ritual sacrifice because they were trying to work out the philosophy of metaphorical sacrifice instead of literal, and that this wisdom comes as cultures become more sophisticated. If this is happening to people he is seeing its because they have no business touching DMT, and have zero swimming skills. Its easy to see how rookies can get confused by narratives their tripping mind is trying to imprint on waking experience. I think they use the term "confusing the map for the territory" to address this.

If i had the language to explain what happened to me, its almost like my mind was pushed so far into chaos that a new order emerged from it, it was clearly an entropy like process occurring. only my new mind started with a basic form of geometric symmetry with the concept of (zero = infinity) and tried to organize all the data in my head like files which connect through a language meta-network-like thing (cycling unity/division or analog compressed to digital unity). The more i learn the more the symmetry resonates when my mind recognizes a specific structure. when i take psychedelics or smoke weed, it like over drives the symmetry resonance and i can even start uncovering repressed memories.
i was swallowed by the white noise and i guess im in the pond again :crazy2:



Quote:


Me:

Hey man, I saw your post instagram and I want to know more about your research.
I run a Youtube channel which explains my experience with psychosis after large amounts of DMT.
I had a profound experience which felt very convincing and it included ideas of reference including experiencing profound synchronicities and feeling like the radio was sending messages just for me, similar to the Truman Show.
It Lasted for a couple of months but then I watched Michael Shermers Ted Talk on the patterns of self deception and I learned about patternicity and type 1 and type 2 errors of seeing patterns in noise.
Ever since I learned this I can use psychedelics and not have episodes because im grounded in the ideas shared in Michael Shermers talk. Also I should mention my mother has had episodes of psychosis and believed she was the chosen one and she never used drugs.
So how was I able to reason my way out of that thinking if it was brain damage.

Josh:

It always is brain damage, the serotonin (5_HT(x)) receptors are essentially destroyed, severing the connection in specific sections of the mesolimbic area. What parts of my research are you interested in? To answer your question, it's extremely complicated.
The reason I have experience in both clinical neuroscience and psychology is because the two are so closely intertwined.
You will always be prone to psychosis, but it will greatly improve following DMT cessation.
Think of an addicted patient. They may be clean, but for the rest of their life they will be prone to using drugs because their brain has been altered to crave the drug at randomized intervals.
Same with DMT abuse, since receptors, sub-receptors, and neurotransmitters are permanently altered.

Me:

Well i mean i havent used it in over a year but thats only because im scared to break through, but i started smoking DMT at age 17 an im 27 now.
But like honestly ive smoked DMT in the heavy 100's range. I had a bit of an episode when I hit 19 but i understand exactly what happened. Its classic patternicity overload with noticing synhronicities and having manic bursts in creative associations, my brain was making a large amount of "this is to that as that is to this." connections.
how it works is you get a lot of bullshit asymmetrical bullshit ideas(noise) and one novel and creative one, kind of like 1 good one for every five wacky ones. It was a madness sure but from what ive learned a rather creative one, but i stilled smoked dmt and had tons of break throughs and never had a similar episode. I cant imagine im suddenly gonna start buying into narratives my mind
creates based on synchronicities i might experience.
I will see it as a false positive.
I am interested in dmt because the visionary states are something im interested in for artistic reasons because im part of an art moment trying to recreate the visionary elements like hyperbolic geometry, hallucinatory form constants and motifs and archetypes like the jester and clown entities that are commonly reported.
I can assure you DMT isnt fun and most people are trying to use it in a more spiritual type approach.
Im just saying why am I not experiencing any sort of brain damage from the excessive amounts of DMT I have consumed?
Is it possible there might be other variables that keep someone stable.
I mean a good analogy is that psychedelics increase the entropy in our mind and to reverse it you just have to use certain behavioral methods that reverse entropy.
Im rather ordered and i intimately understand the difference between that and chaos.
Right now im focusing heavily on my classical music study but i dont see any reason to swear off using it.
its part of the work I do.
Like DMT is the one drug no one is every gonna crave. If you have broken through on DMT, Its terrifying. You think you died. But you are witnessing something incredibly astonishing and impossible in its visual complexity.
Its not a crave or an addiction.
its more like respect and fascination.
Ive been trying to build up the courage to have another experience with it but i have been way too chicken.

Josh:

I can tell you, without a speck of hesitation. do not engage in DMT use. Its not addictive, in that you are correct, as no hallucinogenics or psychedelics posses a true affinity for addiction. (most addictions are a result of pleasure experience by an individual as a result of manipulation of the mesolimbic dopamine pathway or the GABA receptors), but DMT is... unique, per se. It
possesses an, and i hesitate with this word, almost "telepathic" property (think Charles Xavier's ability to control minds in X-Men). It puts its users in what i can describe as a psychic illusion, making them believe they have ascended to a higher, more elevated level of consciousness on the drug, and that they are now psychically on par with a celestial deity such as God.
However, this illusion dissipates, leading to reinforcement and dosing to uphold the new reality they believe they now have accessed, when they actually are in the EXACT SAME reality they were in before, just with "goggles" on their eyes.
Do not, ever, reengage in DMT use.
Researchers have NEVER seen a psychedelic so powerful, and i have personally seen restrained individuals trying to kill the nurses and physicians and Children's (sometimes critical individuals under 30 are brought to the children's hospital I work at) because they believe they are making "blood sacrifices so [they] can live."
Thorazine, Xanax, Ativan, Clozaril, you name it.
None of these drugs in normal doses are helping these people.
The regimen that is now the "go-to" is an H&A-Cocktail, which is a mixture of haloperidol (haldol) and lorazepam (ativan)
These ease the hallucinations and delusions, but it is not a mixture we can prescribe for an individual to take home for two reasons.
1.) They are prone to abusing drugs, and while nobody in a sane mind would abuse haldol, ativan is an active target for drug abuse and can cause POWERFUL addictions.
2.) Ativan and Haldol in combination is very lethal in overdose, so if they randomally enter a psychosis and decide to hurt themselves, we can't really reverse the sedation as well as with a narcotive.
For instance, in an oxy overdose a nurse can push IV/IM Narcan and you'll see the patient wake up in a minute. In a benzo overdose, even though benzodiazepines are relatively safe in overdose, their combination with a powerful anti psychotic lowers the ceiling dose for death, AKA the addition of Haldol makes Ativan more lethal in terms of suppressing breathing.
Not as bad as Ativan and, say, Dilaudid, or another Opioid, but still bad.
You must understand you are altering the chemistry in your brain to an extent that modern doctors will NEVER attempt.
Years ago, Cocaine was prescribed frequently. Overweight? Here's a methamphetamine prescription. Anxious? Try some Secobarbital. Cough keeping up the Mrs? Try some Heroin, Even LSD was extensively looked at (too much, in my opinion, see project MKULTRA, I still know a guy suffering from that mess.
But DMT? That was a ONE and DONE experiment. I understand your art movement and I truly appreciate new and innovative art, but achieving this through a drug is not the way to go.
I know the general consensus is that the best artists are in constant pain and on drugs, but this is not true anymore. In the 1900's, aka the "Decades of Drug", where heroin, LSD, Methamphetamine, Cocaine, and Barbiturates were widely prescribed, DMT terrified researchers and it was seen as "too dangerous and unpredictable for further study."
I can tell you psychopharmacologists LOVE their drugs, especially psychedelics, I have a friend working on psilocybin research for medical use, and he is fascinated by its new and unseen healing properties in certain disorders, but even he, a psychopharmacologist, wouldn't be apart of a study that gives people DMT. There may be study's on people who consume their own DMT, but I doubt you will find a study where we actually provide people with DMT.
It's too much of a risk.

Me:

I've been around alot of different forums and communities where people have been experimenting with it, from what i have seen its rather rare that people might have an episode. Isnt it entirely possible people who have adverse effects just have different brain chemistries or are predisposed to developing those conditions.? I've met many people who have used it in large frequencies and never experienced any kind of episode.
The cases you are citing seem rare compared to the general population who are taking part. Obviously people need to take extreme caution when experimenting with it.
Even for me my episode had a lot to do with life stresses and had attachments to certain people that was kind of a burden on me emotionally.
I never experienced any impulse to cause myself harm.

Josh:

I understand it was like putting your creativity on steroids, I do. But it is destroying your brain and never forget that ANY DMT preparation will always be impure. I mean even cocaine is used pharmaceutically. albeit a small amount.
And Its possible, but unlikely. You have to understand it is like playing roulette at a casino. On any given day, you (as in general) could decide you want to die, for whatever purpose. Or, you could decide to meditate on your visions. It all depends on subconscious thoughts. The subconscious is dangerous when accessed and even the best psychiatrists touch the subconscious with great care as it is beyond fragile.
DMT brings the subconscious into the conscious. The brain separates the two as one grows up for a reason, and merging the two to experience a "new reality" is something the brain doesnt have a contingency plan for- it never prepared for this. By breaking down these barriers, You're opening the floodgates to a myriad of disastrous, or peaceful, thoughts and issues that you didn't even know existed in you.
From a neuroscience perspective, we aren't even remotely close to completely comprehending the brain and we have yet to precisely locate the conscious or subconscious of a human being but we possess proof they exist.
The brain is more intelligent and put up those walls for a reason, the two were never supposed to merge because the result could be disatrous.

Me:

I feel like there must be some sort of mental priming people can do to limit potential harm that might come from experimentation. I have been brainstorming ways to do that, I,e techniques to make sure youre completely grounded in objective reality to take part.
For me I have never used it in large frequencies except for back in 2013 where it felt as if I was uncovering an ultimate truth of some kind. But it was pretty harmless. And to me honestly im glad I went through it because I learned a lot about myself and was able to let go of the attachments I had to people that was causing stress in my life. I came out the other end happier and more content with life.
And dont forget I used it many times after that experience and it never peeled my banana, I just come back from the trip and say "well that was beautiful" and then go about my day. I never pay much attention to what ever ideas I get on it. And if I do get an idea its always grounded in reality. I just feel inspired.
I really would love to still research the visionary states, This is a great article someone with a phd in religious studies wrote featuring my DMT jester art piece and other prominent DMT artists trying to depict the visionary experience.
its extremely important to me and my work.
https://kahpi.net/meeting-the-dmt-trip-entities-in-art/





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Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (03/04/21 12:44 PM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Neuroscientist said DMT is too dangerous to use or study [Re: Ezuma]
    #27237872 - 03/04/21 10:53 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

You nailed peterson, I agree.

OP: Great rebuttal/conversation.


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