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Invisibleshadyshroomie
MycoCurious
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Registered: 10/29/20
Posts: 132
A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob * 3
    #27072389 - 12/04/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I am a noob. I am not an expert in fungal genetics.

I was a biology major. I love science and nature.

I am not an idiot.

I also am kinda retarded. 

But frankly, I really am not buying this a cube is a cube shit I have seen everywhere (might be old threads and such so I may be well behind the curve here with this post).

As a new member, I initially had reservations... or more so anxiety to some extent to post and say something stupid, or look like a newb. How embarrassing. I do not know a single one of you fuckers (that I know of  :cool: ).

That being said, I do apologize if this is the wrong forum to post this in.

   
I also would say I certainly accept I could be entirely wrong, or maybe this is already commonly accepted among current shroomites, I dont know, Im a newb :wink:


But hear me out if you so choose...


:highaf:  :highaf:


A cube is a cube. Yes. But also no shot. No shot that is a fair or representative statement 
:shamecube:
(me posting this)



Is this just something people say to get noobs to chill the fuck out asking about what the best variety is and what colonizes the fastest, what fruits the best, etc.? Because that would make complete sense and I certainly agree, just learn to cultivate successfully for fucks sake you are not a myco sommelier. Although this guy might be
:pipesmoke2:



But... in actuality, I am not buying it as a reasonable statement of fact. It just doesn't sit right with me. Do I think as cultivators, especially new cultivators, we should put attention into this matter for our grows? Probably not. Actually definitely not. There are far more critical things to worry about and factors influencing our grows than the variety we choose.


But should "a cube is a cube" be a commandment and anyone who even thinks to entertain a discussion such as variation among cubes be chastised? I do not believe so.

:freshwtf:



Take dogs, for example. A dog is a dog, right? They all need the same type of food, water, relatively the same environment. A chihuahua doesn't need the same space as a sheepdog. But a sheepdog certainly can still grow and live in an apartment happily and healthily and does not need open pastures, although it might not be an optimal situation...


But it would be insane to say all dogs are dogs and thus they all act the same and therefore it would be not just silly, but abhorrent, to even entertain or discuss the thought of there being differences between dogs. So why does it seem like this is where the discussion of cubensis varieties is at? (again newb, so I have much more forum to explore so if there are lengthy threads already addressing this and I am misguided in thinking this is the state of the conversation... then this post was a waste of time).


All dogs are certainly the same species, as are all cubes, but there are differences, OBSERVABLE differences in both the way dogs look and act/behave.


Furthermore, not only are the varieties of cubes different across the world naturally due to evolution (cannot say the same to the same extent for dogs as we domesticated them), but we also have "domesticated" cubensis to the point of distinguishing a new or different variety among the community.



:evildog:  :dogpipe:

Like look at this lil fucker chihuahua. He ain't no pipe smoking canine. A dog is not a dog.



Now, like dogs, do all cubes need the same parameters to grow? As far as I know, yes. To give special growth or care parameters for a particular variety would be like giving your toy dog expensive canned food instead of normal dog food.... oh wait  :fancycook:



But seriously, even though they all need the same growth parameters, does that mean they all act the same? Or behave the same? Or can you blatantly say a cube is a cube? I struggle to believe so.


Are humans all humans and should be treated as just another human? Hell yeah brother. One love.

:loveheart: 


But does that mean there are not subtle, or not so subtle, nuances and differences between the experience of life among certain groups of humans? Differences that, albeit not definitive to one's life, certainly would be reasonable to assume have some significance to those humans' lives a part of that group?

This may not seem relevant to fungi. Yet it is. Nature has a natural flow, order, disorder, and intelligence to it that manifests in similar ways across all biological life.

I understand "a cube is a cube" given the fact that they are one species and the necessary growing conditions are the same, and for 98% of cultivators it doesn't fucking matter, a cube is a cube.


But, I just don't buy the "fact" that there is no innate difference among them, ON AVERAGE, if taken as a whole population of that variety, due to varieties within their genetics/evolution/natural environments. Can any variety be a shit show, slow colonizer, horrible fruiter? Or the best set of genetics ever? Duh. I think that may be why "a cube is a cube" is so predominant. For the typical home cultivator, given the range of possible discrepancies, differences, and success/failures, any difference between varieties is negligible.

The number of variables involved with a home grow has led us to answer the question "how much can I expect to yield" with "anywhere from 0 to 100 ounces". Because who the fuck knows. Your MSS might not even have spores in it. Or it has different variety. Or it is contaminated. 

:b00ftube:


A though experiment perhaps will help



Say in a universe where we could take an actual representative, fully comprehensive, scientific sample/data analysis of every variety, and analyse every aspect of growth and control for confounds, I would be shocked if there were not some statistically significant differences between varieties. There is not another species who shows that kind of homogeneity (I think that's a word?)


:clintonshuh:




Again, I do not know the genetics or science behind this, but this is just my intuition from understanding other natural and biological processes.

[gradient:#E00909,#]If all races of cubes, or varieties, came from same lineage of psilocybe cubensis[/gradient]. Kinda like our common ancestor primate or whatever. They are all the same species, but essentially a different race of that species.


This is hypothetical and is simply trying to paint an image of how I am viewing this. The first cubensis variety that was separated from the OG cubensis could have only become a new variant of cubes if there were distinguishable differences. But it would not be simply one mushroom that became a new variety, because all mushrooms from spores have new genetics correct? To become a distinct variety, it would take the genetics over time shifting, due to environment, god, homer simpson, what have you, and it differentiated enough to be able to be classified as a distinct variety.

There are observable differences among the many varieties. These all came from an OG psilocybe cube, or perhaps aliens spawned 9 different OG variants to seed the planet millennia ago. I dont fucking know haha. But, there are clearly differences among the cubes that are able to be identified by the trained mycologist. How do differences, or variations within a species, occur in evolution?

Pressure.


:pressure:

Pressure caused by somewhat different environments. The fundamental environment to thrive remained a necessity, but across the planet slight variations in those growing environments certainly had some influence on fungal evolution. Right? If not, then fungi are unique to the rest of us and special.... which may be equally plausible :crazy2:

People who have been cultivating for years who seem to live and die by "a cube is a cube" I would argue are not adequate judges of this statement. Long time cultivators, albeit incredibly knowledgable on cultivating mushrooms, are not MycoGod or all-knowing experts on a species as complex and perplexing as cubes.

I am tempted to believe the difference among varieties is significant, yet minute enough it would take decades of growing from MSS with random genetics to have a feel for the nature of variant differences. Most growers quickly switch to clones/isolates, and at that point any judge of variation, or tendencies of certain varieties is no longer valid as you are not working with the natural order of things.

To figure this out, it would either take an all-knowing being to create a sample analysis of all cubensis varieties in the world and measurements on their growth. Or, a very in-depth, well designed, long term study of variants and their genetics and independent variables of the grow (colonization, fruiting, etc.).


So, if it does not matter for cultivators, why am I writing this incredibly long post? One, Adderal. Two, I do not fully believe it is in our best interest to ignore this possibility and simply keep going on with "a cube is a cube" (if my evaluation of where we are at as hobbyists in this mentality is not unfounded).

Why? Because mushrooms.


Exploration. Discovery. Maximizing potential. Not just the potential that lies within fungal genetics, but the potential that lies within our ability to appreciate, understand, cultivate, and connect with nature in a way other biological entities on this earth cannot.


If we did not ignore this but rather opened it up for discussion, analysis, experimentation, peer review (eventually hehe), then who knows where the hobby could go?


I could be making myself look even more like a newb with this post as it might be a well-established fact a cube is not just a cube, but that is what is said to calm down new cultivators. A lot of what I have read on here is old threads. So if that is the case, then I guess I am welcoming myself to the party.

If not, lets argue motherfucker 
:cockafuck:



P.S. I tried my best to make this post pleasing to look at and not just words on words... gimme some time 

:bashful:


Edited by shadyshroomie (12/04/20 06:24 PM)


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: shadyshroomie] * 3
    #27072402 - 12/04/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

There may be genetic, cosmetic, and growth differences.
But cubensis is cubensis is cubensis.
These differences all span from where the cube was within the world, genetic mutation, and human intervention.


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OfflineExstortion
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27072408 - 12/04/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you. So far I have grown 3 varieties. Golden teacher, Roatan Honduras, and Treasure Coast.  Golden teachers have been my favorite by far. I always had happy trips with great visuals. The Honduras gives me anxiety resulting in bad trips. Treasure coast can be good or bad for me. I’ve tripped on these varieties over 5x each. It’s always the same outcome. Even if I’m in a good head space and had a great day the Honduras give me a bad trip.
    I have albino a+ about ready soon I’ll let you know how they are for me. I also can’t wait to try apes.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Exstortion] * 1
    #27072429 - 12/04/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

All cubensis come from the same genetics.
They just have different phenotypes due to environment and human intervention.
a cube is a cube.
Equs ferus is the scientific name for horses. And there are HUNDREDS of different types of horses. Clydesdales, Thorobreds, Standardbreds, quarter horse, just to name a few. But all are still Equs ferus. Mushrooms are no different. You can have hundreds of different types but at the end of the day they’re still Psilocybe cubensis. Cubes a cube.
Cannabis sativa and Cannabis indica are two different species from the same genus. The exception is hybrids which we get by breeding the 2 species together, which would make a new species. As far as breeding mushrooms, whenever we use multispore we are breeding them but we are breeding the same species. I’m not sure if it’d be possible to breed to different species of mushroom together. Maybe if they were both from the same genus it’d be possible. The other thing about cannabis is that there are like 85 different cannabinoids and all of them contribute to the effects of the high. Because of that, there’s a lot of room for variation. Mushrooms, however, have only 4 active compounds: psilocin, psilocybin, baoecystin, and norbaoecystin. Because there’s only 4 compounds there isn’t a whole lot of room for variation.


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OfflineExstortion
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: mushhead]
    #27072468 - 12/04/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I understand what you are saying. Terrance McKenna said something like “Shrooms are easy on the newbie but get harder the more you become experienced with them.” I still have Honduras and TC but no GT. GT was my first grow and my first trips since about 10 years ago. I gonna grow GT again and see if I have the same happy visual trips as I did before. That will really let me know personally.


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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Exstortion]
    #27072547 - 12/04/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

One theory is that it's a specific compound that "inhibits" bad trips.


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27072581 - 12/04/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shadyshroomie said:
A cube is a cube...

Is this just something people say to get noobs to chill the fuck out asking about what the best variety is and what colonizes the fastest, what fruits the best, etc.?




Generally, yes. That seemed to be the underlying question so the rest was TL:DR.

This might be a question better suited to the Psychedelic Experience forum.


--------------------
"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Sir Pentinite] * 2
    #27072660 - 12/04/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:tldr: That was interesting at first but then I saw how long it was and thought... :waitnonevermind:


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
MycoCurious
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: mushhead]
    #27072726 - 12/04/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushhead said:
There may be genetic, cosmetic, and growth differences.
But cubensis is cubensis is cubensis.
These differences all span from where the cube was within the world, genetic mutation, and human intervention.





Exactly :smile:


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: shadyshroomie] * 1
    #27072767 - 12/04/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The reason people say cubes are cubes is because most of the desirable traits that could be increased in frequency are both hard to quantify and easy to attribute to other vectors.


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27072890 - 12/05/20 03:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Exstortion said:
I agree with you. So far I have grown 3 varieties. Golden teacher, Roatan Honduras, and Treasure Coast.  Golden teachers have been my favorite by far.






Right on. Have 10 MSS and a PE 6-toothpick? Immediately knew what it is for but was surprised I had never come across one or seen one. In the shroomery.




Quote:

mushhead said:
All cubensis come from the same genetics.






What do you mean by this? Same genetics to what extent?

Quote:

Sir Pentinite said:
Quote:

shadyshroomie said:
A cube is a cube...

Is this just something people say to get noobs to chill the fuck out asking about what the best variety is and what colonizes the fastest, what fruits the best, etc.?




Generally, yes. That seemed to be the underlying question so the rest was TL:DR.

This might be a question better suited to the Psychedelic Experience forum.




Without a doubt. I am having trouble responding to this thread as I am tempted to get off the topic of cultivation lolz.

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
:tldr: That was interesting at first but then I saw how long it was and thought... :waitnonevermind:




Respectable. 

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
The reason people say cubes are cubes is because most of the desirable traits that could be increased in frequency are both hard to quantify and easy to attribute to other vectors.





Certainly... Although hard to quantify does not mean impossible to quantify.
Likewise, easy to attribute to other vectors does not mean impossible to develop a controlled research methodology as science advances.

This matters, to me at least, because although we may not be able to benefit from these tendencies or variations given the state of the hobby currently, that does not negate the fact those innate tendencies might exist and could potentially be tapped into at some point in the future.

The rapid increase in fungi funded research we are witnessing at several world-class medical research universities leads me to believe following this will also be significant advancements in cultivation, and thus continue to evolve the hobby. Although maybe this is misguided. I am a dreamer.

My main motivation behind this post was not to fundamentally deny that a cube is a cube, or argue against saying that, as doing so would be to deny science :wink:


My intent was to say that yes a cube is a cube, but we shouldn't allow that mentality to block us from having discussions on the matter, or from fully appreciating the uniqueness of the fungus in a way that supports the continual advancement of the hobby. 

This post was intended to be an argument from a noob, but more so as an expression of what my thoughts on this are after my initial involvement with the hobby.

Throughout my first 100 or 200 hours throughout this forum, I just got the overwhelming sense that the "cube is a cube" mentality is almost an off-limit topic that would be blasphemy to discuss otherwise. Given the evolutionary nature of this hobby and community, I would think discussions on this topic would be more prevalent and open. I am curious if there are more devoted discussions for this I have not stumbled upon. Or perhaps I am the only one who gives a rats ass haha. That is not uncommon.

Like I said, I am kinda retarded.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 1
    #27073036 - 12/05/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smalltalk_canceled said:
One theory is that it's a specific compound that "inhibits" bad trips.



That compound is set and setting as well as expectations.

If you think you get bad trips off honduras but not from GT you need to grow more mushrooms and have more trips until that correlation goes away


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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: shadyshroomie] * 3
    #27073082 - 12/05/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If people want to discuss things like genetic drift and it’s role when limiting heterozygosity in an already domesticated line go ahead. I love science minded discussions. Obviously I believe that cubes are not just cubes, hell I spent 4 years on a project of “cubes are not just cubes.” My issue is that people think that the name on the syringe is all there is to it; that’s a gross oversimplification at best and just flat out wrong at the worst. If you think GT give spiritual trips and no others can, that’s frankly retarded and isn’t worth discussing.


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Pastywhyte] * 3
    #27073104 - 12/05/20 08:20 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

dogs are all dogs.
:2cents:


Edited by Failboat (12/05/20 08:20 AM)


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InvisibleEarlyMorningRain
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Failboat]
    #27073171 - 12/05/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong. But in regard to taxonomy, wouldn't variations in cubes be like comparing different types of sheepdog(old english, shetland)?

And different breeds of dog(rottweiler, golden retriever, staffie) the same as comparing cubes to other psilocybin-containing fungi(ovoids, azures, cyans, etc)?

And different species in genus canis (dog, wolf, fox) be compared to different kinds of mushrooms(cubes, morels, lions mane)?

If I skipped a rank, there are different classes of dogs such as working, herding, etc.

Not to derail, just pointing out. :cookiemonster:

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
dogs are all dogs.
:2cents:



:whateverhuman:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: EarlyMorningRain] * 1
    #27073176 - 12/05/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Breeds of dogs would all be cubes.

Dog wolf fox is like cube cyan azur

Cube and lions mane is like dog and cat


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27073743 - 12/05/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

smalltalk_canceled said:
One theory is that it's a specific compound that "inhibits" bad trips.



That compound is set and setting as well as expectations.

If you think you get bad trips off honduras but not from GT you need to grow more mushrooms and have more trips until that correlation goes away




Facts.

I dont want to get too far off cultivation, but I am curious of not just cultivation tendencies of varieties but also tendencies and differences in experience between varieties. I do not have sufficient experience but from what I hear there do seem to be qualities of experience known to some varieties, such as those who say Mazatapec is very shamanic in nature.

If these differences were significant enough, I would then be curious if there might be some merit to certain varieties being more likely to induce a bad trip in some people than others, depending on one's psyche. Perhaps someone who struggles with _____ or has X type of trauma or type of anxieties are more likely to have a bad trip with a highly shamanic experience compared to a more euphoric, happy, warm bubbly like experience with less spiritual insight and more just overall shroom high haha.

However, I am unsure of the relevance of this or the value in even discussing it. No matter the strain, it is still fucking psilocybin and will be a trip you must prepare for. Bad trips can happen with any strain, and good ones can too. To claim any variety gives you bad trips I feel is projecting blame to something which is easier to accept, rather than reflecting on what about the experience led to a bad trip.

Psilocybin doesn't just decide on occasion to induce a bad trip or not, thus nothing about psilocybin or any mushroom specifically is causing a bad trip. The ONLY thing that causes a bad trip is one's own psyche, and other variables such as set and setting may catalyze a bad trip or protect you from a bad trip. But at the end of the day there was something in your psyche leading to a negative experience, and that part of you was unlocked briefly through the mushroom :smile:

I have had psychotic near suicidal episode on 440mics LSD where I told my mom I was going to cut my nuts off. Lemme tell ya, the acid did not do that. I had a lot up in there I was unaware of and it was my 3rd trip... taught me real quick psychedelics arent to be fucked with.



Now, back to cultivation hehehe




Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If people want to discuss things like genetic drift and it’s role when limiting heterozygosity in an already domesticated line go ahead. I love science minded discussions. Obviously I believe that cubes are not just cubes, hell I spent 4 years on a project of “cubes are not just cubes.” My issue is that people think that the name on the syringe is all there is to it; that’s a gross oversimplification at best and just flat out wrong at the worst.






This makes a lot of sense. When I made this post I knew there likely, certainly actually, was loads more factors and variables influencing/at play in regards to this topic.

Kinda why I posted as well to hear from those who have been in this thang for quite some time and could provide some insight and stimulate my curiosity.



If you know, to what extent is there variation within each variety? I doubt there has been significant genetic analysis of cubes and thus insight in this regard would be tough.

Of course, variation even in one MS grow is immense and thus why grows are unpredictable. But I am curious if on top of genetic variation caused by the nature of mushroom reproduction due to fungi fornicationon if there is also even more distinct variation among lineages of spore generations/different suppliers. Such as the blue meanies cultivated for some time in one region of the world, like throughout Europe, might have distinct qualities when compared to the blue meanies cultivated throughout Australia.



This discussion has given me much insight that I was seeking and has helped further develop my thoughts.

I am beginning to think that although tendencies and differences among varieties is certainly worthy of thinking about and discussing, perhaps the reality of the topic and any conclusions is that there is little to nothing to be gained or developed in this regard.

Any relevance/insight/benefit to be gained from pursuing this topic more intensely might be so minute, and the resources to get there (such as research funding) so vast, this is not the direction mycology needs to or ever will go in.




Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
dogs are all dogs.
:2cents:




You probably also don't find puppies cute and are a cat person huh...

jk :smile:


Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Breeds of dogs would all be cubes.

Dog wolf fox is like cube cyan azur

Cube and lions mane is like dog and cat




Analogies are useful. This is dope.

What is a lions mane compared to cube cyans and azur?

I know next to nothing about mushroom genetics and such, and would have thought the only analogies that could be made would be either breeds of dogs being different varieties, and then any further distinctions or difference fungi would be cat vs. dog.

You added another layer of classification I wouldn't expect. But I guess I shouldn't expect anything in my mycological pursuits, other than for fungi to continue to fascinate and surprise me.


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27073772 - 12/05/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If people want to discuss things like genetic drift and it’s role when limiting heterozygosity in an already domesticated line go ahead.




Yeah, this is definitely something that should be discussed. We don't have the available laboratory resources to assess the differences in chemistry between the highly bottlenecked lineages of comercial cube varieties and their wild counterparts, but we are definitely making some progress where visible effects are more obvious.

Perhaps the addition of fresh genetics could benefit some varieties like PE. There's been some interesting crosses lately which seem to be beneficial for some of our most notable varieties, like pe, and ape.


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Offlinespongegar
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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27073787 - 12/05/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i dont have much experience, but from my 3 grows- cambodia, pesa and PF classic, there is a discernible difference between all of them. pesa fruited the best from all of them, but having the potency of pf classic. pf classic was the same yield as cambodia, but definitely weaker than cambodia.

that being said, they all produced the same effects on me, but the difference in potency on cambodia was noticeable. 2.5gs on cambodia were like 3.5 on pesa. (3.5g cambodia was a complete blastoff :mushroom2:)

was it because its a multispore? probably. was it because a cube is a cube, but not really? who knows, im not the one to say that, but the difference was definitely there, and from my recent trips- it still is there .


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Re: A Cube is not a Cube... a memoir from a Noob [Re: spongegar]
    #27073792 - 12/05/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I thought I’d seen a lot after doing a few hundred grows. Really I now feel like I ain’t seen nothing.


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