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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #27049528 - 11/20/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions.

I think it's often pretty unhealthy and I see this all over the internet. You are just getting a snap shot of something someone said, like a string of quotients. It makes it easier to jjust tunnel vision on certain points.




Is the real life debate and discussion in all ways better? Text based arguments have the potential advantage of time to consider one's response. Whether one takes advantage of it varies. And people aren't generally quick in person to concede or agree to opinions. :shrug:

I think it's good when a person argues in good faith. And rather good when all parties are doing so. I guess the real life thing contains more poignantly the reality that the interpersonal relationships are more important than winning or loosing.

But it all seems par for the course. The more things change the more things stay the same. Otherwise said, give a human something to fuck up and it'll get fucked up. :lol:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
    #27049773 - 11/21/20 01:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27049891 - 11/21/20 05:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

don't let that take away your enthusiasm.

even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #27049951 - 11/21/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.




Are you open to being wrong about that? :strokebeard:

I don't disagree, but just because there seems to be more interest in the one thing doesn't mean there's no interest in the other thing. I've found that IRL it's better to be mindful that people are easily made defensive, and people are often more offensive than they intend to be. In that context the use of debate is limited. An opinion expressed is enough to meet someone half the way and one cannot make up the difference on their own. Allowing for difference of opinion beyond that expression is probably wise. But if there is some need to get through and convince someone of something, it best to be very mindful of that defensive nature and focus on how ones words will be perceived, rather than simply what one's intention is. Good intentions are often found to be offensive.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
    #27049980 - 11/21/20 07:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

exactly,

a natural reflex is to evaluate what is new/different/changed defensively.
it is unnatural to relax integratively in the face of flux or anything new.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
    #27051434 - 11/22/20 01:49 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.




Are you open to being wrong about that? :strokebeard:

I don't disagree, but just because there seems to be more interest in the one thing doesn't mean there's no interest in the other thing. I've found that IRL it's better to be mindful that people are easily made defensive, and people are often more offensive than they intend to be. In that context the use of debate is limited. An opinion expressed is enough to meet someone half the way and one cannot make up the difference on their own. Allowing for difference of opinion beyond that expression is probably wise. But if there is some need to get through and convince someone of something, it best to be very mindful of that defensive nature and focus on how ones words will be perceived, rather than simply what one's intention is. Good intentions are often found to be offensive.




Yes, only if others are equally ready to prove that statement incorrect!

Technically all opinions are limiting because you can only express and condense something down to a statement so much, before it loses true meaning. The map is not the treasure.

I still stand by my position more often than not most people will stop reasoning and start pretending their irrationality is valid even when they're objectively incorrect.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27051435 - 11/22/20 01:51 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
don't let that take away your enthusiasm.

even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.




I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.

People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.

Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27051526 - 11/22/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

how do you manage your feelings of impatience with the pervasive ignorance of others, and the shadows of ignorance in one's own world view.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27051748 - 11/22/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
don't let that take away your enthusiasm.

even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.




I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.

People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.

Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.




I bet you get a lot of people trying to snowball you. But don't you have people who know they're fucked up and want to get better? Occasional breakthroughs?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
    #27051957 - 11/22/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you have to try
you have to make an effort
and do self authoring
meditation can play a big part
a little yoga
not doing drugs
adhering to or getting to goal with the rules


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
    #27056494 - 11/25/20 01:11 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how do you manage your feelings of impatience with the pervasive ignorance of others, and the shadows of ignorance in one's own world view.




By charging a metric fuck ton to listen to people complain LOL.

For real. It's all rational thinking. I get clients to identify, slowly, where their blocks are subconsciously. I find working from subconscious level "down" to the conscious mind has incredible impact on success rates. I'm not an addiction counselor and I don't see people with chemical issues that's not my lane and I don't ever, EVER pretend it is. Someone comes in and I find out they lied and are on drugs I just refer them out to local clinics.

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
don't let that take away your enthusiasm.

even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.




I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.

People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.

Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.




I bet you get a lot of people trying to snowball you. But don't you have people who know they're fucked up and want to get better? Occasional breakthroughs?





Yes of course. I'd say 1 in 3 are conscious and willing and ACCEPT what needs to be done. These people make my job easy I just give them the paint-by-numbers strategy and it clicks. The barrier is those that don't accept and haven't accepted that they are making some sort of decision on some level even if they don't understand how that works. Again, subconscious coaching. The success rate with working people from this level is higher than not, especially with that "I got it!" 33% I just mentioned.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineLeonardjr88
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27071368 - 12/04/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

What I've noticed is a dis-evoloution of consciousness. Whereas the machine is offered as a reliable resource to not "investigate" to not be "introspective". So what we're left with is a collective of massive amounts of people interacting like mindless drones. Programed by the machine they use instead of the "human" programming the machine. Do what the future beholds is culture of people who dont look each other in the eyes devoid of empathy, unable to have interpersonal relationships without a program manipulator.
We need to have a set standard simply based upon morality that we do not use our phones in public places. That could be a great solution. i could go on and on and on...


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #27071601 - 12/04/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not an addiction counselor and I don't see people with chemical issues that's not my lane and I don't ever, EVER pretend it is. Someone comes in and I find out they lied and are on drugs I just refer them out to local clinics.





How does that play for you when some of the most woke cunts in history have been drug addicts?

Quote:


I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.




I don't go out for that, I just try to express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as possible, if I pick up something new along the way it's a bonus. But I'd place honesty and being true to yourself first.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #27072811 - 12/05/20 12:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:

How does that play for you when some of the most woke cunts in history have been drug addicts?





I've yet to personally meet a booze, coke, meth, or speed head that has anything insightful to say about the nature of reality, existence, the control system we live in, etc. This isn't a judgement thing maybe it's just my batting average with those people that come to me.

Psych people? Yes, of course. Those people aren't addicts however. Can you give me an example of woke AF people that are hooked on non-psych compounds?

Quote:

Grapefruit said:

I don't go out for that, I just try to express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as possible, if I pick up something new along the way it's a bonus. But I'd place honesty and being true to yourself first.




I'm inclined to agree my friend. That's the difference from person to person in my honest professional experience. There's a kernel of will there that stands amongst the chaos and noise. That signal to noise ratio will vary from person to person, however.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27072914 - 12/05/20 04:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Some of this might be pretty obscure to you and some are a guess but... Lou Reed. Ray Charles. Charlie Parker Trent Reznor. The boys from FIDLAR. Nearly all the rappers in the UK scene at least are pretty druggie, roots manuva is IMO probably the most transcendental shit there and he smokes crack when things get rough. Um... Countless writers who have had tobacco or alcohol addictions. Rimbaud. Coleridge taylor.

Mick Jagger? PKD? Freud? Amy Winehouse?

I feel like the list is pretty large really but I can't count em all...



I guess it probably makes sense that most of the people you meet aren't in that sphere but maybe you should be mindful about giving them a chance is all I'm saying.

I was just listening to an alan watts talk (alcoholic) where he was saying that in chinese philosophy they have a concept they call renxing meaning waywardness, this is considered an important balance to ren, meaning heart and I guess they consider the totality of that to be important to growth. According to Watts they thought someone being too much of a "goodie goodie" was not truly virtuous. Although examples like Tolstoy, Dickens, or Emerson might be just that IMO. But then you also have your Dostoevskys, Shakespeares, Blakes.


Edited by Grapefruit (12/05/20 04:27 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #27072948 - 12/05/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Some of this might be pretty obscure to you and some are a guess but... Lou Reed. Ray Charles. Charlie Parker Trent Reznor. The boys from FIDLAR. Nearly all the rappers in the UK scene at least are pretty druggie, roots manuva is IMO probably the most transcendental shit there and he smokes crack when things get rough. Um... Countless writers who have had tobacco or alcohol addictions. Rimbaud. Coleridge taylor.

Mick Jagger? PKD? Freud? Amy Winehouse?

I feel like the list is pretty large really but I can't count em all...



I guess it probably makes sense that most of the people you meet aren't in that sphere but maybe you should be mindful about giving them a chance is all I'm saying.

I was just listening to an alan watts talk (alcoholic) where he was saying that in chinese philosophy they have a concept they call renxing meaning waywardness, this is considered an important balance to ren, meaning heart and I guess they consider the totality of that to be important to growth. According to Watts they thought someone being too much of a "goodie goodie" was not truly virtuous. Although examples like Tolstoy, Dickens, or Emerson might be just that IMO. But then you also have your Dostoevskys, Shakespeares, Blakes.




Ah ok yes see we were indeed talking about two different groups, I wasn't counting celebs. I don't discount people at all even though sometimes I use language that may sound judgmental or elitist. I see the person separate from what keeps them stuck. I don't believe people are deterministic machines, and I also don't ever discount that after a specific point medication is indeed valid and needed.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27072962 - 12/05/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Debate on the internet does not work because almost no one is searching for debate but rather just to proclaim that their already chosen perspective is the correct one and that all who not agree are wrong & probably retarded. And then we call it "debate" and "discussion" and pretend we are engaging in something intellectual when in fact we are just morons with signs shouting "We are right you are wrong", "I know best".

Herd mentality becomes weird online.

When people actually have a genuine interest in understanding other perspectives, then and only then, actual discussion can occur.
And that fucking never happens.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27072975 - 12/05/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well that seems reasonable, I guess like you say you did just come off a little flippant and harsh to me at first.

Are you looking to try to make the most impact to the collective, or are you content just to help provide someone with a little bit of relief from suffering if you can? Those two outcomes would be acheived through a markedly different approach seems to me, although surely there's a point in the middle. I don't know how I'd approach that in your shoes.

I'm also interested on your perspective as to how firmly you believe in therapy as being a positive approach to individual and collective health? You question your work much?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #27072985 - 12/05/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Everything literally depends upon the individual asking for help. If we learn anything from tripping it's that separation is the illusion. That has had a massive, massive impact on how I approach my work. The best way I can describe it is that you can't really impact the collective unless you can do so with each individual interaction, since that's ultimately all you have the most influence on anyway. That influence can then become a group or a following of course, but ultimately it's one on one.

In reality, it's you vs you. All of your negative opinions, outlooks, etc., are a reflection of something going on in your consciousness (subconscious, to be exact). You only have access to you. Everything you resist persists, including all preconceived notions about the effectiveness of therapy, and how much emotional investment you put into one belief or another. The placebo effect is very real and often thrown out, when in reality, I'd argue it's the foundation for our integration/interpretation of "reality", as we experience it.

I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have a bigger picture understanding of human behavior, how it relates, what's superfluous, and what ultimately causes massive large scale synchronicity. I don't say that as a fuck you, either; I say that as someone that has put thousands of hours into study, experiment, and actual in-field application and seen patterns that are undeniable, that, surprise surprise, people love to deny, lol. This also involves knowing what patients will indeed be a lost cause or waste of resources better spent elsewhere, which sounds harsh, but reality goes both ways. Too much empathy - or more accurately, misapplied empathy - as a default causes many, many people to miss things right in front of them that are causing problems they insist they don't deserve.

What I just said also sounds blunt but one of those unfriendly non-PC patterns is emotionally stunting due to some sort of trauma, and it doesn't have to be insane shit like people assume. You can do trauma to yourself with drugs and self-abuse via relationships and not realize what kind of blocks you're creating/fucking yourself up with. Responsibility gets inverted as a defense mechanism and this requires an empathic approach because you can't navigate defensiveness. Ultimately the saying "love is all you need" is correct, but knowing when that person has an issue that is no longer within the realm of therapy, as you said, and when and more importantly WHOM to hand them off to, is crucial.

There are occasions when you can be as optimistic, open, and flexible and someone is just absolutely insistent on being difficult or impossible to help. No amount of naive wokeness love and light causes that to cease to be a reality. The key is not wasting finite resources, like your time, on people like that. That comes with experience and I've noticed it's also aided not only the quality of my clients in my psych work, but also in my fitness business as well.

It's cuts deep and goes both ways and many, many people refuse to accept that reality.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/05/20 06:23 AM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27072988 - 12/05/20 06:22 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Buisness is buisness I guess. :thumbup:

Fuck me if it wouldn't be nice if everyone could make it though.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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