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Offlinejpchatx
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Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy?
    #27071598 - 12/04/20 11:53 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Hi all, this is my first grow with B+ BRF cakes. I’ve read through countless posts and found some conflicting info, so wanted to post a photo for advice.

I did a 24 hour dunk and roll after waiting a full week after 100% colonization. When I took the cakes out of the water they were bruised bluish. When I rolled, I tried to get the verm to stick but it kept falling off. I kinda pressed it, but was scared to press too hard. Anyway I waiting for about 30 min before the first spray. Some of the casing came off and now a lot of some of the cakes are exposed. I sprayed/fanned every 2-3 hours for the first day, then about 4x a day after that. I started off spraying like a madman, but after reading some threads have cut back to a few “sprays” per cake during misting.

I’m kinda being impatient here but now wondering if I’m overwatering? I was also worried about the lack of casing layer on some parts of the cake but read it’s not worth rerolling this late in the game. Any advice?

This photo was taken this morning, 4 full days after birthing in the FC.



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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27071624 - 12/04/20 12:11 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Rolling it in verm helps hold moisture and create a better microclimate for the cakes.

However, it isn't completely necessary. When I birthed cakes, I've skipped the roll a few times because I didn't want to damage in-vitro pins.

Your goal is to do the following:

1) Get water to bead on the surface (not to pool)

2) Have those water beads evaporate to trigger pinning as well as contribute to the humidity in the chamber. (Proper amount of FAE is important for this)

3) Have the cycle repeat.

The dunk was to rehydrate so the point of misting is the above and not as a source of rehydration. So you must be careful as not to overwater.

Learn surface conditions. See the below link. Although it's about surface conditions on bulk subs, you can apply it to cakes as well

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23999053#23999053

Just be careful when misting cakes as to not allow water to pool on them or the foil underneath. If you have water pooling on that foil, it's a clear sign that you are over misting.

No need to reroll. Leave as is and focus on proper surface moisture and evaporation as well as adequate FAE and light.


--------------------
“When a man is just born, he is weak and flexible. When he dies, he is hard and insensitive. When a tree is growing, it's tender and pliant. But when it's dry and hard, it dies. Hardness and strength are death's companions. Pliancy and weakness are expressions of the freshness of being. Because what has hardened will never win.”

- Andrei Tarkovsy, Stalker



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Offlinejpchatx
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #27071658 - 12/04/20 12:33 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Ok this is awesome, thanks so much for the response! I will study that link.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27071665 - 12/04/20 12:37 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Let me make this easy for you OP.
Get yourself some Coir and use coir to case your cakes.
Verm will fall off pretty easily and isn't a great armor.
Coir will actually stick proper like and surrounds the cake completely, providing an actual casing which retains moisture and in the long run nets you a better yield.


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InvisibleSome DudeS
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27071923 - 12/04/20 02:40 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

jpchatx said:
Hi all, this is my first grow with B+ BRF cakes. I’ve read through countless posts and found some conflicting info, so wanted to post a photo for advice.

I did a 24 hour dunk and roll after waiting a full week after 100% colonization. When I took the cakes out of the water they were bruised bluish. When I rolled, I tried to get the verm to stick but it kept falling off. I kinda pressed it, but was scared to press too hard. Anyway I waiting for about 30 min before the first spray. Some of the casing came off and now a lot of some of the cakes are exposed. I sprayed/fanned every 2-3 hours for the first day, then about 4x a day after that. I started off spraying like a madman, but after reading some threads have cut back to a few “sprays” per cake during misting.

I’m kinda being impatient here but now wondering if I’m overwatering? I was also worried about the lack of casing layer on some parts of the cake but read it’s not worth rerolling this late in the game. Any advice?

This photo was taken this morning, 4 full days after birthing in the FC.





Id just like to point out that fruiting cakes actually don't need to be 'watered' nor should they be watered for that matter. Misting is really mostly just for creating/maintaining desirable micro climate on the surface and if favourble conditionsfor fruiting are already there then misting again will instead take you further away from 'favorable', likewise, ignoring to mist when it's needed will also have consequences. I hate to say this but from looking at the pics It seems that myc is already quite damaged and sad (the matted myc looks kind of like a hard slimey dead sponge (sry for slamming your cakes surface so hard lol but it's true and truth is never bad) anyway the cake should always appear kind of vibrant, and alive because of the fresh, new growth constantly appearing all over the surfaces. This is what I'm missing from your cakes, signs of adequate conditions to at least allow the colony to regroup and make adjustments, but so far the conditions seem to be so harsh that the colony is having a very hard time dealing with being soaked every 2-3h.


This is how the micro climate on the surface of my cakes looks at all times, and for me this eventually always results in cakes being absolutely peppered with healthy pins that all grow to maturity. If you can manage to create these kind of conditions on your cakes surfaces then I guarantee you will see fruits in a matter of days, it's that simple :thumbup: Unfavorable climate on the surface is the main cause of stalling cakes, unable to produce fruits even tho it's been weeks after full colonization.

Here's for reference!
Zoom in on the pics to be able to see climate:



I'd like to see a close up pic of your cakes (kind of like the pics I posted) so I can try to determine what precisely needs to be done in your case to improve your chances of success. Gl


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27071933 - 12/04/20 02:47 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I'd like to point out Mateah's cakes are cased in coir. Verm casings are iffy.


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Offlinejpchatx
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: mushhead]
    #27072592 - 12/04/20 09:40 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Okay thanks for the tips. I’m definitely doing coir next time.

Mateah those cakes are way heathy looking, I see what you mean. I’ve only done a light mist today and lots of fanning to try to undo the damage. I appreciate your thoughts based on these closeups.

I actually have 3 cakes that were slower and still need a few days to consolidate, so I’m planning on birthing soon. I’ll try not to screw them up so badly... will be an interesting experiment either way. I’ll see if I can get some coir on short notice.



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InvisibleSome DudeS
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: mushhead] * 1
    #27072738 - 12/05/20 12:02 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Coir will definitely add in protecting cakes from the harsh environment of the SGFC but I really doubt coir alone will be able to compensate for the absence of 'desirable climate' which will always be the most essential part of the fruiting process and this part can simply not be overlooked or downplayed, a balanced climate in any kind of FC should always try to closely resemble conditions in the natural growing environment of cubes which in the wild believe it or not are actually not dependant on humans to keep them alive by spraying them with water several times a day.



Let's first focus of repairing the surface conditions on the cakes and for this process you don't necessarily need Coir so you can just use vermiculite for now of that's all you got. Okay. So. Basically the entire process of 'repairing' the surface is just to coat the cakes (entirely) in a moist outer layer made of verm or coir, around 5mm thick layer is needed. When the outer layer has been added then simply place the cakes in a container (or anything really) as long as FAE has been completely stopped I.e cakes are inside a container or tub where the evaporation from the cakes is greatly reduced or completely hindered. Let the cakes rest in this environment for 2-3 days or until you notice that new and healthy myc has began to emerge from the damaged myc on the cake surface and is making its way out colonizing parts of the newly added outer layer. When 50% or more of the outer layer has been 'grabbed' by healthy, newly regenerated myc then simply just switch back to introducing fruiting conditions once again (whether you go back to trying to fruit in the SGFC or if you choose the more effortless method of fruiting in a Water Tub) you will either way need to manually create the surface conditions needed for fruiting by misting the cakes until you have the micro climate needed for fruiting and then it's just a matter of dialing these conditions in by controlling the evaporation rates and by replacing the lost moisture on the surfaces.


This is the look of cakes shortly after they've been coated with an outer layer or coir and after they've been placed inside the Water Tub with the lid on fully so the tub is closed shut.



And when the outer layer has become sufficiently colonized after a few days then the cakes will look kind of like this.



And it's at this point that I spray a fine mist over the cakes from at least 3 feet above to ensure that tiny but tightly packed droplets will form on the surface and to make sure there's no standing water or pooling on top. The myc surface should never be or appear soaked.
This is how the final micro climate on the surface should look pretty much during the following days as fruits are starting to develop.



If you can maintain those surface conditions then your cakes will very soon look like this and if you manage to get to this point then it's pretty hard to mess it up :thumbup:


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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InvisibleBuffGuts
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27072744 - 12/05/20 12:11 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Use a hydrometer.
RH% awareness, baby!


--------------------
Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. Carl Jung
:mushroom2::sun::grin:


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InvisibleBuffGuts
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: BuffGuts]
    #27072746 - 12/05/20 12:12 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

If it is very high humidity. Cakes aren't looking gross or smelling bad , leave me alone l


--------------------
Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. Carl Jung
:mushroom2::sun::grin:


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InvisibleSome DudeS
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: BuffGuts]
    #27072765 - 12/05/20 12:31 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

BuffGuts said:
Use a hydrometer.
RH% awareness, baby!



You mean hygrometer? Btw a hygrometer doesn't tell you anything about the progress of maintaining desirable micro climate of the cakes surface. My growing area is 15% dryer than the average RH% in the Saharan Desert and none of my cakes have ever dried out or suffered in any way because of the dry indoor climate at my place. The RH inside my apartment doesn't go over 10-11% even tho outside RH is constantly around 90%. My houseplants are really the only ones suffering from the dry ass climate here. And my plants are the only reason I ordered a bunch of ultrasonic foggers and computer fans yesterday from Wish.


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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Offlinejpchatx
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27072810 - 12/05/20 01:39 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Okay, I got some verm and ground it up a little bit with some water so it was moist and fine, then pressed about a 5mm layer onto each of the cakes. I put them on some new tin foil in the glove box (with the holes sealed). I'll let em rest for a couple days and will hopefully see something like your photos. Either way I'll report back to this thread with photos. Thanks for the help!



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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27072922 - 12/05/20 05:12 AM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Looking forward to see where this ride is gonna end :popcorn:
I've been trying to convey this method to many a damaged cake owners and you're the first to pull the trigger on that instantly, your reward is potentially learning something about cakes that has taken avid growers years to learn or discover :thumbup:


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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Offlinejpchatx
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27073331 - 12/05/20 12:07 PM (2 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

I've been trying to convey this method to many a damaged cake owners and you're the first to pull the trigger on that instantly, your reward is potentially learning something about cakes that has taken avid growers years to learn or discover :thumbup:




Well I'm happy to be a guinea pig, you clearly know your stuff. I went down a rabbit hole reading the whole water tub tek thread, which looks like it might solve some of my problems about not knowing the right fanning/misting schedule. I'm headed to the store to pick a new tub tonight. If I can salvage these babies, they'll go into that FC.

Will post with progress.


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Offlinejpchatx
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27074230 - 12/05/20 09:59 PM (2 months, 22 days ago)

So I have supplies for a water tub. The cakes I'm trying to salvage are sealed in a regular tub with no water, no FAE -- about 24 hours in, and so far there's no visible change. Should I move them over to the water tub (fully sealed) now to continue their convalescence, or should I wait for the myc to grab hold of the new casing layer then switch them over to normal water tub with the lid askew?


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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: jpchatx]
    #27074510 - 12/06/20 03:42 AM (2 months, 22 days ago)

You will need very high humidity to induce regeneration of myc and idk how big your SAB is and how humid it is so the safest bet is to fill up a Water Tub and let the cakes recover in there for a day or two more. You're gonna love this setup when you realize how maintenence free is can be :super:


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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OfflineZakkery
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27074594 - 12/06/20 06:11 AM (2 months, 22 days ago)

Some real nuggets of wisdom here. Noting for reference if I try cakes again :takingnotes:


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InvisibleShroombitz
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27075096 - 12/06/20 12:23 PM (2 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Our Friend said:
Looking forward to see where this ride is gonna end :popcorn:
I've been trying to convey this method to many a damaged cake owners and you're the first to pull the trigger on that instantly, your reward is potentially learning something about cakes that has taken avid growers years to learn or discover :thumbup:




I will go second, after my cake stalled like this for four days (see progress here) after its second flush, I was already thinking to toss it



Then I saw your promising looking post so I thought fck it I gonna try to go in resurrection mode and gave it a nice verm casing and put it in a "whatever you call it" :grin:




--------------------
Ask not what your shrooms can do for you, ask what you can do for your shrooms.


Edited by Shroombitz (12/06/20 02:36 PM)


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InvisibleSome DudeS
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Shroombitz]
    #27075338 - 12/06/20 02:46 PM (2 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Shroombitz said:
resurrection mode



Omfg that's brilliant lol cause it takes about 3 days for the cakes to 'resurrect'
:loljesus:


--------------------
p9hu7 said:
So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. The purpose is to experiment with procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.


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InvisibleShroombitz
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Re: Screwed up rolling, first grow—are these healthy? [Re: Some Dude]
    #27076374 - 12/07/20 01:10 AM (2 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Some Dude said:
Quote:

Shroombitz said:
resurrection mode



Omfg that's brilliant lol cause it takes about 3 days for the cakes to 'resurrect'
:loljesus:




Haha, yeah I gonna let it walk over water to be reborn from earth :wellholyshit:


--------------------
Ask not what your shrooms can do for you, ask what you can do for your shrooms.


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