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Blue Helix
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Breaking the old spawning habit 2
#27072302 - 12/04/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Problem statement So I became interested in monotubs recently as I know a grower that was enthused by it, and who said it was hands down the best way to grow cubes. And it is good, but I was annoyed by the fact it requires spawn. I don't making spawn. It's a big hassle when you are used to just injected fruit-out substrate with LCs as I always have done. So how to get rid of the annoying spawn?
First step: what the hell is the recipe most are using? Well, trying to get it was literally like pulling teeth, but I finally got someone to show me how they spawn the now-famous coco coir vermiculite mix. I had about 5 people tell that the recipe was "1 part spawn" to "1 part coco coir" to "1 part vermiculite" per volume. They kept throwing around this 1:2 ratio, but looking at their spawn jars I could see they were 75 to 80% full whereas the coco coir and vermiculite mix was a full 2 quarts. Just to be clear 1 does not equal 0.75. It just doesn't, so your mix is not 1:2 but 0.75:2.
Who even cares exactly what it is? Anyway, the reason all this matters is that that if you don't want to spawn, you will have problems with loosey goosey volume-based recipes like that. Why? Because when you make a bulk sub in a spawn bag, you got one time to get it right (right before you seal the bag), and nothing is hydrated so feel is out the window. You can't just add stuff after that.
So I had to reverse engineer what a mix of 0.75 parts grain spawn to 1 part coco coir to 1 part vermiculite is in terms of weight (since the ingredients will not be hydrated). That took a lot of testing for density and such. So here it is for 10 pounds, which is about what you want for a 60-quart monotub (well, it worked for me but it might a little short for others. You can increase the recipe by half if you want to be sure and it will still fit in a 21-quart cooker like the AA921):
Quote:
*** Cube Spawn Buster *** Ingredients (in dry ounces, except water) 30.0 oz rye berries 14.0 oz vermiculite 10 oz coco coir 108 oz water TOTAL 162 oz (108/162 or ~66.7% water)
What next? So right now I am doing a comparison run between the usual spawning coco coir and vermiculite and the LC-to-bulk in the bag techniques. For me the LC-to-bulk spawn bag is, of course, much easier, but I need to make sure the yields are comparable. I'll update this thread when I find out, but until then, if you'd like to streamline your growing, use LC-to-bulk and spread it out in a monotub once it's colonized and you open the bag.
Edited by Blue Helix (12/04/20 05:51 PM)
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mushhead
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27072327 - 12/04/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Blue Helix
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: mushhead]
#27072350 - 12/04/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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PS - I want to add this one more thing: for some reason people's substrate density are more fluffy than what I experienced. Keep in mind that the monotub full of the recipe above is about 10-pounds @ 66.7% moisture and was about 3 inches deep for me. That means that one monotube should yield about 3.75 to 7.5 ounces dry (corresponding to 100% to 200% BE at 7% solid fruits). I had someone tell me that his trays were about 60% that weight at 3". I don't know how that could be because I tried both spawning and the bulk-to-LC bags and both were way denser than this grower reported.
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Buddaking
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27072442 - 12/04/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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--------------------
 AMU Q & A
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Atria
Stranger
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27079346 - 12/08/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Blue Helix,
I finally made my account and ended years of lurking here to join in on this thread. I'm so stoked to be in on some current shit that I can tell is gonna completely revolutionize my workflow. I've gotten pretty familiar with your LC-bulk growing style recently and I dig it. Last night I got stuck doing a G2G in a too-short SAB, and I was like I'm so done with grain spawn.
So lemme get this straight, are you pre hydrating your grains like in the old days? Or are you just mixing up the dry ingredients like in a bucket, adding the water (temp??), letting the mix hydrate for a bit, putting it in spawn bags, and PCing?
Is that 108 oz of water leaving it slightly drier to accommodate your 140 cc of LC?
Thanks in advance and many blessings.
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bw86
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27079373 - 12/08/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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hmmm
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Atria
Stranger

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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27081048 - 12/09/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nevermind, I believe Pitcher Crab answered my question in your "Notes about LCs thread"
Search function for the win.
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Josex
#cheat_code


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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27081071 - 12/09/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Call me a troll but I don't think grain spawn is annoying or a hassle. On the contrary, it's an easy to prep shakable substrate and a great and quick way to expand mycelium. It's also easy to tell the health of the spawn upon inspection.
Edited by Josex (12/09/20 07:39 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Josex]
#27081089 - 12/09/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Josex]
#27081103 - 12/09/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The reason I like spawn for cubes is because it expands in open air to a simple prep substrate. This maximizes the amount of fruiting colony I can produce given my sterilization capacity.
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Josex
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081114 - 12/09/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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That too, if someone wants to go big, grain spawn allows them to do that easily. But even if you don't, it still is a great and easy way to grow mushrooms, fast...
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Atria
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Josex]
#27081126 - 12/09/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whatup Josex, I've learned alot from you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against spawn by any stretch.
I do, however, see the appeal of colonizing the final fruiting sub in a sealed sterile environment. It eliminates several vectors of contamination, and while I'm pretty confident in my SAB work (when working in the 19" tall SAB that I usually use), it would be cool to eliminate all those extra steps yknow?
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Josex]
#27081129 - 12/09/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Josex said: Call me a troll but I don't think spawn is annoying or a hassle. On the contrary, it's an easy to prep shakable substrate and a great and quick way to expand mycelium. It's also easy to tell the health of the spawn upon inspection.
The reason I say that is multiple. It's really just a matter of more work. First, you have to soak the grain overnight and rinse it. Then you got to heat it up and drain it! That alone is too much work for me, and even if that is all there was to it, I wouldn't do it. But it doesn't stop there: if you use quart jars rather than spawn bags, you actually have to load a bunch of jars, sterilize them, and--and this is the absolute worst--add agar wedges to each one. I hate agar. I throw agar in the trash as soon as possible in fact. All my stored cultures are LCs in vacutainers. Rarely I'll save a slant.
Now I did consider that I could eliminate the agar by using LCs and the tiny little quart jars by using spawn bags (which is what they are for). And truth be told that is a lot better, but colonization is still broken up into two substrates that are heat-treated.
Let's compare that to lc to bulk:
1) Throw a bunch of weighed stuff in a spawn bag. Seal it. 2) Sterilize the spawn bag 3) Inject the spawn bag with LC. Wait for colonization. 4) Spread the substrate out in a mono tub and cover. Wait for harvest.
It's literally half the number of steps, which made me wonder why anyone would have ever used spawning in commercial button operations. I think there are at least three reasons: (1) commercial operations have to compute power costs in their grows and sterilization of all the bulk substrate would be far more expensive than pasteurization, (2) very large sterilizers are expensive, and (3) spawn generation is often done by a different company entirely than the farming. And, actually, that's a fair division of labor since spawn generation is actually at least half the work if not more and requires expensive sterilizers.
The elimination of spawn was just one aspect to this. I also want to see if one or other yields better too. Elimination of the spawn will not make sense if it yields far worse. If it's about the same or better, though, then I'd just go for lesser steps which is LC to bulk.
PS - I think to maximize production--if that is your goal--I'd still go with spawn made in spawn bags. In spawn bags you can easily sterilize 20 to 25 pounds of spawn in a 21-quart pressure cooker (as opposed to 12 quart jars which is about 13 to 14 pounds) and you don't need to mess around with agar wedges. You just inoculate each spawn bag with an LC. Also, if you are going for yield, you sure as hell would not use non-nutritive ingredients like coco coir and vermiculite. You would use manure or compost and spawn about 1/10th the amount here (a few percent is all farms use not the 33% we see here).
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27081147 - 12/09/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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If I run 12 bags in my 75x and spawn them each to 14 quarts of coir verm to build a single mono, I’m in essence getting 168 quarts of colony in my 12 tubs from one sterilizer run. I’m not sure how I can get more from it.
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Atria
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081154 - 12/09/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's true, with LC-bulk, the bottleneck eventually becomes sterilizer capacity when scaled up. But then one would have the sterilization capacity/time that would have gone into spawn making freed up for the bulk subs. Obviously there's pros and cons with any method, but it seems like OP's is less labor-intensive.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27081166 - 12/09/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I’m making 40 quarts of sub at a time. Takes me the time it takes to get the water hot and perhaps 10 min to bust up the coir bricks and measure out the verm. It’s far less labour intensive IMO than preparing manure or straw.
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Josex
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081171 - 12/09/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Honestly I've never done bags with the 'final' substrate already mixed and sterilized at once but I've done bottles like that and they can take their sweet time to colonize. I know you can break up the colony in the bags but even then I wonder if it could begin to compare to grain spawn as far as speed is concerned.
Yes I know you then have to spawn the colonized grain to a substrate but the air increase will speed things up greatly.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081177 - 12/09/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: If I run 12 bags in my 75x and spawn them each to 14 quarts of coir verm to build a single mono, I’m in essence getting 168 quarts of colony in my 12 tubs from one sterilizer run. I’m not sure how I can get more from it.
Well if you are willing to go to compost or manure then things get interesting. Do you know the spawning rate that button mushroom growers use? Are you ready for this? They use 0.5 to 0.75% spawning rate, and there is zero reason you could not use that with cubensis too. Instead what are we using here? What 33% or something, right? The reason we use these super high spawning rates is because coco coir and vermiculite are very poor nutritionally. In fact the vermiculite has no nutrition at all, and the coco coir is very nutrient poor. But they hold a lot of water, as much as compost or manure. I kind of like to think of these mixes as "synthetic manure". If you are looking for TRUE bulk, then you have to go back to manure or compost. That's just the facts. Generally, I don't see people on this site complaining about not getting enough from the monotubs, though. I mean we are talking about something that is used in the realm of a couple dozen grams fresh (if that), and a single 60-quart monotub which can yield thousands of grams fresh, which is a lot for this purpose.
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Atria
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081183 - 12/09/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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No doubt, I don't know shit about manure sub other than it sounds like a pain in the ass. it's not the sub prep where OP's method reduces labor, it's the elimination of the spawn prep. especially if you're comparing spawn vs no spawn given the same bulk sub recipe.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27081186 - 12/09/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Atria said: No doubt, I don't know shit about manure sub other than it sounds like a pain in the ass. it's not the sub prep where OP's method reduces labor, it's the elimination of the spawn prep. especially if you're comparing spawn vs no spawn given the same bulk sub recipe.
It is kind of a pain. It also smells like a barn. That's why I was so excited when I read about this spawned coco coir and verm mix about two months ago. I actually had not been paying attention to this site all that much for many years, so when I read that, I was immediately interested. It doesn't seem to work, though, with pan cyans and pan cambos. I don't know why either.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,809
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27081203 - 12/09/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: If I run 12 bags in my 75x and spawn them each to 14 quarts of coir verm to build a single mono, I’m in essence getting 168 quarts of colony in my 12 tubs from one sterilizer run. I’m not sure how I can get more from it.
Well if you are willing to go to compost or manure then things get interesting. Do you know the spawning rate that button mushroom growers use? Are you ready for this? They use 0.5 to 0.75% spawning rate, and there is zero reason you could not use that with cubensis too. Instead what are we using here? What 33% or something, right? The reason we use these super high spawning rates is because coco coir and vermiculite are very poor nutritionally. In fact the vermiculite has no nutrition at all, and the coco coir is very nutrient poor. But they hold a lot of water, as much as compost or manure. I kind of like to think of these mixes as "synthetic manure". If you are looking for TRUE bulk, then you have to go back to manure or compost. That's just the facts. Generally, I don't see people on this site complaining about not getting enough from the monotubs, though. I mean we are talking about something that is used in the realm of a couple dozen grams fresh (if that), and a single 60-quart monotub which can yield thousands of grams fresh, which is a lot for this purpose.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Agaricus needs manure for more than just the nutrients, grain wouldn’t be a substitute in that case so it’s apples to oranges. IMO manure is a total time dump for cubes, doesn’t hold the water cubes want, etc.
If I only have time to run my sterilizer once a week, grain bags spawned to coir is giving me the most return for the least time and effort. Space becomes an issue at some point as well, I can’t see all the time dealing with manure as having any kind of yield benefits either. Most of my tests have showed coir outperforming.
I’m not knocking invitro colonization of bulk media (regardless of how strict your definition of that term may be), I’m just saying that it’s not possible to grow more volume in that manner compared with taking that same volume of colonized media and expanding it threefold. You might like the workflow or the inoculation options better. But you cannot convince me that you will grow more cubes from 48 quarts of substrate than you will from 168.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081213 - 12/09/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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We grow drugs and choice edibles. We ain't the guys growing the mushroom that makes kids hate mushrooms with razor thin profit margins and ancient technology.
Button farms are atrocious compared to most edible and medicinal growers practices.
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Atria
Stranger

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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081218 - 12/09/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pasty, lemme just say it's an honor to be here now actually conversing like this, with all y'all really, legends to my eye. Like I said I've lurked here for years, spent many long nights reading posts from all three of y'all. Just so much gratitude and respect 
I've got 3 quarts of crystal clear LC, inoculated with agar on 12/3, about 25% full of beautiful mycelium and I'm stoked to try this method.
I've never fucked with bags, an I'm a little worried about the .2 micron bags I got, but my plan is to put a piece of tyvek inbetween the filter patch and the side of the bag that lays over it, with tyvek sleeves in the tops of the bags.
I'm rocking a 5 year old presto 23, still going strong, just replaced the gasket \m/
Question; how much water does a presto with 3 quarters on the jiggle weight need to last 4 hours at 15 psi?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27081223 - 12/09/20 09:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Use 3q of water and you'll be fine. You can run it at 14.5 psi with no weight and lose almost no water and no rattling too. So quarters or not it's the way it's ran that saves water or not.
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Atria
Stranger

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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: bodhisatta]
#27081237 - 12/09/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Got it. Thanks Bod. IME, I turn my electric stove down to medium at 15 psi and the PC peaks at 17-18, but I've never ran it more than 2 hours. Will 17-18 psi lose water too fast for a 4 hour run?
I can't get over your new avatar xDDD
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27081246 - 12/09/20 09:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: If I run 12 bags in my 75x and spawn them each to 14 quarts of coir verm to build a single mono, I’m in essence getting 168 quarts of colony in my 12 tubs from one sterilizer run. I’m not sure how I can get more from it.
Well if you are willing to go to compost or manure then things get interesting. Do you know the spawning rate that button mushroom growers use? Are you ready for this? They use 0.5 to 0.75% spawning rate, and there is zero reason you could not use that with cubensis too. Instead what are we using here? What 33% or something, right? The reason we use these super high spawning rates is because coco coir and vermiculite are very poor nutritionally. In fact the vermiculite has no nutrition at all, and the coco coir is very nutrient poor. But they hold a lot of water, as much as compost or manure. I kind of like to think of these mixes as "synthetic manure". If you are looking for TRUE bulk, then you have to go back to manure or compost. That's just the facts. Generally, I don't see people on this site complaining about not getting enough from the monotubs, though. I mean we are talking about something that is used in the realm of a couple dozen grams fresh (if that), and a single 60-quart monotub which can yield thousands of grams fresh, which is a lot for this purpose.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Agaricus needs manure for more than just the nutrients, grain wouldn’t be a substitute in that case so it’s apples to oranges. IMO manure is a total time dump for cubes, doesn’t hold the water cubes want, etc.
If I only have time to run my sterilizer once a week, grain bags spawned to coir is giving me the most return for the least time and effort. Space becomes an issue at some point as well, I can’t see all the time dealing with manure as having any kind of yield benefits either. Most of my tests have showed coir outperforming.
I’m not knocking invitro colonization of bulk media (regardless of how strict your definition of that term may be), I’m just saying that it’s not possible to grow more volume in that manner compared with taking that same volume of colonized media and expanding it threefold. You might like the workflow or the inoculation options better. But you cannot convince me that you will grow more cubes from 48 quarts of substrate than you will from 168.
Button mushrooms are a secondary decomposer so may require compost or manure which are already decomposed by the action of bacteria. Cubensis are secondary as well as primary decomposers so you have the option of growing on grains (or just about anything) too. We utilize grains here because we are doing small grows where the substrate's cost is irrelevant to the endpoint. Likewise, using the exact same logic, I am suggesting to sterilize the bulk rather than the spawn because energy costs and space are irrelevant.
If you were to maximize cubensis growing for cost, you would do exactly what button mushroom growers already do. And what they do is well publicized. They produce compost and inoculate at a rate of about 0.5%. In comparison, we use relatively expensive grains like millet or rye and even more expensive vermiculite and coco coir. To compensate for the poor nutrition of coco coir and vermiculite we use extremely high spawn rates of literally 66 times what a typical button mushroom grower does. That would be utter lunacy except for the fact we don't really give a shit about our costs here. If, in the future, cubensis growing became big legal business--and it might--professional growers would slowly morph into the same paradigms that button mushrooms do in order to maximize profits.
I don't understand why what I was saying was a point of contention, but I noticed that Shroomery now is a site where if someone says "Farts stink" a couple of the moderators and about ten to twenty users respond, "Actually, I really like the smell of farts and shit. Maybe you stink, loser!" And that is fine. As a particular moderator told me, I had to grow up and recognize that there are a lot of trolls on here. Okay. I fail to see the entertainment value in it, but whatever.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,809
Loc: Canada
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27081258 - 12/09/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I’m not sure button mushroom practices are ideal for cubensis despite the fact that cubensis occupies the niche of a secondary decomposer in nature. That’s pretty much just my opinion but I feel cubes have a lot more in common with Stropharia than Agaricus. Either way based of my experiences I’m pretty sure no agaricus grower is going to produce anywhere near the amount I do per square foot of indoor fruiting space.
For instance I not going to want to run a 1:45 spawn ratio regardless of the media used simply because cubes do not like a substrate that large. Agaricus growers run monster ass beds, cubes wouldn’t appreciate those much IME.
I like coir verm because it’s easy to prep, brainless for that matter. In 25 min I have 40 quarts of sub prepped and cooling. I can’t say the same for any other bulk media.
If I want to pull 12 of these a week;

and if I don’t want to run my sterilizer more than once a week, spawning grain is a very helpful tool.
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starbones
I'm an alien, I eat uranium.



Registered: 03/04/20
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27081264 - 12/09/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Comparing white button mushrooms to commercial backroom cubensis is dumb and bad.
Edited by mushboy (12/09/20 09:59 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: starbones]
#27081283 - 12/09/20 09:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have noticed that this thread is starting down the road of totally irrelevance like every single thread I have started in the last two years on this site.
Because I do not like that, because it is disrespectful to other users that might actually be interested in the core topic covered in the thread, and because when I reply I participate in ruining the integrity of the thread, I am no longer going to reply to this thread. I'll leave it to the few people who consistently derail threads to take over that job.
And as for me: I will post yield numbers of the spawned tubs versus the LC-to-bulk tubs next, but it will be probably 2 to 3 weeks until then. Until that time, I have zero interest in this thread.
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mushboy
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: starbones]
#27081288 - 12/09/20 09:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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What a terrible post
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starbones
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: mushboy]
#27081291 - 12/09/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I know, I dun did forgotted about the thing I dun did forget about there. You know what I was meaning though.
On another note if I didn't make spawn I'd only get 10 fruiting substrates per PC run, that's 2+ hours of my time. In that same time if I do spawning I can make 30 fruiting substrates by expanding that spawn 1:3. Ipso facto time has value, inputs are cheap.
-------------------- Listen, I'm steel fisted with the iron lung Heavy metal ballads out the guitar where lions run.
 
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,274
Loc: where?
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: starbones]
#27081293 - 12/09/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not just you just this thread in general 
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,809
Loc: Canada
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: mushboy]
#27081341 - 12/09/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Honestly I’m sorry if I’ve pushed this off topic. However I got to say that I have a hard time with the idea that any particular method is “best” they all have their own pros and cons. I think if people want to eliminate grain from their grow that’s a perfectly fine strategy that has lots of upside. I messed around lots with grain free growing. Just don’t want to say it’s something it’s not.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,268
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix] 5
#27081392 - 12/10/20 12:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You just don’t like it when the people you’re dogging in your round about smug way (that I’m sure isn’t lost anyone) stand up for themselves and ride you out of town on a rail because you’re spouting nonsense and trying to make everyone else feel inferior. Putting coir through a pc is a waste of space. I can order coir and verm on Amazon and it doesn’t giving me anxiety that my apt neighbors think I’m literally cooking horse shit on my stove. Coir is ridiculously easy to prep.. I mean, you should know.. you prep it before you put it in your grow bags, right? That’s why I use the tools I use and I’m glad the tools you use works for you but cut out the passive aggressive BS
And if you don’t need to soak grains, why the hell would I? Who soaks oats and rye and wheat? I can hydrate as much grain as my kitchen can withstand in 45 mins. You’re adding steps to us simpletons process in order to make yours sound more appealing. Hell, I don’t even wash my jars.. just wipe the rim to save time. I don’t need to make more than 6 qts at a time.. do that twice a week and I’m set.. that’s a nice cycle for me and I don’t need bags where I can possibly lose all my work in one shot because of a dirty LC. Coir is extremely contam resistant compared to manure/straw.. I’ve done both plenty of times and CV always wins
We use high spawn because it’s fast AF with high returns. Time is money. To me, it sounds like you’re trying to convince me taking away an hour and then adding two is going to save me time.. I’m just not buying what you’re selling. Every time I read one of your posts, the first thing that comes to my mind is, “this fucking guy.. ”
Faht
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Atria
Stranger

Registered: 12/08/20
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Last seen: 3 years, 26 days
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27082094 - 12/10/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is it possible to get this thread back on topic by asking for help with my LCs?
They're 2% LME. Had sediment at the bottom out of the PC, but the sediment seems to have been consumed by the mycelium.

inoculated a week ago with agar, now there's brown blobs. does the mycelium that sequestered the sediment take on the color of the sediment or is this contam?

the blobs have a 2d appearance and seem to form along the bottom/stir bar

they look good to me other than that, anybody have any info on this?
thanks
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



Registered: 04/18/19
Posts: 2,719
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27082148 - 12/10/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Atria said: Whatup Josex, I've learned alot from you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily against spawn by any stretch.
I do, however, see the appeal of colonizing the final fruiting sub in a sealed sterile environment. It eliminates several vectors of contamination, and while I'm pretty confident in my SAB work (when working in the 19" tall SAB that I usually use), it would be cool to eliminate all those extra steps yknow?
To be perfectly honest, spawning to 100% coir doesn't contaminate unless the spawn is bad, ever. I run wbs to coir 1 to 1. 3.5 quarts hot tap water per 650g coir in buckets, 4 quart spawn to 4 quart coir in 32 quart tubs and get 4 to 6 oz per tub dry 1st flush. 3 easy steps, agar, grain, spawn. Grain spawn is super simple and in my experience simple is best. Coir works great then people start adding stuff like gypsum, vermiculite and coffee and having a lot of issues when all that other stufff literally doesn't add anything to potency yield or speed. Not telling you not to reinvent the wheel just adding a counter thought to maybe deter newbies from going this route.
My signature is 1qt spawn to 1qt coir in a shoebox from my ks isolate. I run 2 isolates, a ks and an aa+
My overall costs come in at about $8 per pound, wbs just went up it was 6. I could do it for less than 30 if I literally tossed the tubs, jars and dishes after every run but jars and tubs are scarce right now so that's not happening.
Edited by Professor X (12/10/20 01:07 PM)
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Ababyphoenix
You



Registered: 03/21/19
Posts: 1,015
Loc: Human Body
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Professor X]
#27082331 - 12/10/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh god its this guy....
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   Pho's MushiAventures:
My '21 GLOG LAGM 2022
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Professor X
School for the Gifted



Registered: 04/18/19
Posts: 2,719
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Ababyphoenix]
#27082374 - 12/10/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ababyphoenix said: Oh god its this guy.... 
I know. I suck since I disagreed with OP and agree with everyone else in this thread. Shame on me. I should just quit.
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Atria
Stranger

Registered: 12/08/20
Posts: 14
Last seen: 3 years, 26 days
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit *DELETED* [Re: Professor X]
#27082399 - 12/10/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by Atria
Reason for deletion: meh
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Nobler Hino
a dojo and a forge?!


Registered: 08/29/15
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Deep Ellum
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Pastywhyte]
#27082405 - 12/10/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm a huge fan blue's work! No reason to get defensive if people challenge you bro, you're still a hall of famer man.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I got to say that I have a hard time with the idea that any particular method is “best” they all have their own pros and cons. I think if people want to eliminate grain from their grow that’s a perfectly fine strategy that has lots of upside. I messed around lots with grain free growing. Just don’t want to say it’s something it’s not.
Agreed
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   "The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand. I ask them and they answer me.” – Maria Sabina
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Ababyphoenix
You



Registered: 03/21/19
Posts: 1,015
Loc: Human Body
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27082406 - 12/10/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Atria said: wait a sec... youre saying contams come from bad spawn? do you have any sources to back up that statement?
Save yourself some time and read a few of his ratings.
Ive got nothing against you personally since I've never failed as a result of anything you've said. I remember reading this guys stuff when I first started and thank god we have a rating system and TC's is all ill say
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   Pho's MushiAventures:
My '21 GLOG LAGM 2022
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Atria
Stranger

Registered: 12/08/20
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Ababyphoenix]
#27082471 - 12/10/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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i immediately regretted replying lol.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Atria]
#27100758 - 12/21/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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All three monotubs went moldy. This is precisely what I figured would happen, and it's exactly why I think monotubs won't work very well for someone like me. I think the culprit was a moldy piece of fruit about 10 feet from the tubs, and the mold did start under the holes. I find it incredibly revealing that the proponents of this technique seem to forget that not everyone has totally pristine homes (as they no doubt do). Some of us don't, and for those, I would not recommend monotubs at all. Learn how to grow mushrooms for real, and you don't have this problem. Monotubs, I am sure, work great if you don't breath on the casing and happen to have a clean place to put them, but that doesn't apply to me.
So here's the BE for me - 0% for monotubs and about 150% for normal non-abusive growing techniques in the same environment. I'll give all this monotub stuff another try in a HEPA-filtered room next time, but I certainly don't recommend it without careful consideration of the growing location. It does not perform as advertised in those conditions.
I am sure the usual trolls living in their parents' basement will reply to this with their nice condescending troll replies about the marvelous miracle of growing grain spawn in coco coir and vermiculite. I won't be reading them, though, so you can save your typing.
This thread is closed from my perspective. If I ever manage to get a monotub to work in a HEPA-filtered room, I'll post about the yield numbers. I suspect they'll perform on par with real growing techniques that utilize controlled conditions, but I've not seen it yet.
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Nobler Hino
a dojo and a forge?!


Registered: 08/29/15
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Deep Ellum
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#27100800 - 12/21/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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--------------------
   "The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand. I ask them and they answer me.” – Maria Sabina
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Nobler Hino]
#27100836 - 12/21/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll keep my old spawning habit in my dirty ass basement that I haven't cleaned in years. Don't know how I'm so fucking lucky I never see mold.
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Ababyphoenix
You



Registered: 03/21/19
Posts: 1,015
Loc: Human Body
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Josex]
#27100837 - 12/21/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Must be because you havent broken that old spawning habit....
On a real note how is a TC saying his tubs went green because of a moldy fruit near the tubs? Ive heard noobs admit to having fully healthy tubs growing right next to moldy messes ina dingy garage. Trusted cultivators who admit to having grown cubes in places with mold obviously growing on the walls...
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   Pho's MushiAventures:
My '21 GLOG LAGM 2022
Edited by Ababyphoenix (12/21/20 01:09 PM)
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Ababyphoenix]
#27100847 - 12/21/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted cultivators who admit to having grown cubes in places with mold obviously growing on the walls...
I used to grow in a mold infested apartment. So moldy you would not believe it until I showed you pics. I had nothing to fear if the spawn was clean. 
I made a post with pics not long ago in the tread POTD talking about this.
Edited by Josex (12/21/20 01:03 PM)
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starbones
I'm an alien, I eat uranium.



Registered: 03/04/20
Posts: 1,131
Last seen: 2 months, 17 days
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix] 2
#27100905 - 12/21/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: I think the culprit was a moldy piece of fruit about 10 feet from the tubs,

The CVG cake with the red X has sporulating trichoderma around the base. I don't know what kind of magical fruit you buy but if your theory had any merit this entire tub would be lousy with trichoderma.
We have bag growers that cut the bags top off, grow multiple bags to a monotub, have some go shitty and the rest soldier on right beside the ones sporulating green.
You've got an army of people here growing with nothing but success in monotubs, some TCs who are pushing flushes where there is simply no physical room left in a monotub for a fruit to exist and somehow we're all wrong? There you go with calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a damned troll.
You just made an excuse for failing at one of the simplest concepts in cultivating cubensis. Putting stuff in a tub and leaving it alone. You blamed a piece of fruit dude. Grow your own way and have fun with it but stop telling others they're wrong for using proven methodology that's been refined for what, twenty fucking years or however old the original monotub tek is now?
Quote:
Blue Helix said: I am sure the usual trolls living in their parents' basement will reply to this with their nice condescending troll replies about the marvelous miracle of growing grain spawn in coco coir and vermiculite. I won't be reading them, though, so you can save your typing.
I'm going to say it because it needs to be said. If I cop a ban for it well that's on me but fuck it. Why are you even here? Nearly every fucking thread you make devolves into this condescending trash talk from you. Hell, half the time you start out the thread with some smug hogwash that does nothing but irk people and get their dander up. Every single post, every single thread. If we're all so below you why not just keep to yourself instead of putting some very obvious personality defects on display in an effort to hoist yourself up while putting everyone else down?
You're not breaking any new ground, you're failing at the basics and in doing so you're adamant we're all wrong for NOT failing at those same basics and then you just choose to be a condescending prick. Why are you here?
Quote:
Ababyphoenix said: On a real note how is a TC saying his tubs went green because of a moldy fruit near the tubs?
It was said before when he spouted off his nonsensical assbackwards understanding of what super spawning was that he got a TC tag back in the day when the standards were much looser. There is nothing trustworthy coming from a guy who can't fruit a fucking monotub and has to blame produce for things going fucktangular.
-------------------- Listen, I'm steel fisted with the iron lung Heavy metal ballads out the guitar where lions run.
 
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Breaking the old spawning habit [Re: Blue Helix]
#27101282 - 12/21/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll.
You have to preemptively put insults in your posts.
Sorry man this is a place where adults come to talk about drugs. Everyone cringes when you post.
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