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Offlinechris77
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: clampconnected]
    #28361648 - 06/16/23 01:20 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

how intriguing. :takingnotes:
please keep up this interesting work and keep us posted!
chris


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OfflinePsilosophy328
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: chris77]
    #28361855 - 06/16/23 08:41 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

The fluorescence is interesting indeed. However, why suspect it's due to b carbolines (BCs) if they aren't detected using HPLC, and the bioassays don't support presence of BCs (short duration of effects). Why continue to look closer for them? Perhaps look at isolating whatever is fluorescing (test different extracts/elution for fluorescence), and try to elucidate the structure? Would need NMR I guess though.

What did show up on the HPLC?


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Invisiblekirkeng
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: Psilosophy328] * 2
    #28361868 - 06/16/23 08:58 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

@clamp, yeah the lumichrome is what the folks I’m talking with think. I won’t pretend to know shit about that though, I’m simply repeating from someone more knowledgeable on the subject. But I’m glad more people are looking into it!

It still makes me wonder though why some pan cyans flouresce and others don’t. What is the purpose of that flourescence and is there any clues based on where they’re from that has caused them to flouresce. But I’m also unfamiliar with taxonomy and such, but in my mind I would of thought that flourescence should persist in all localities of the same species which it is not doing. Sorry this is a bit off topic considering it’s about panaeolus cyanescens, but maybe you have some insight?


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Offlineclampconnected
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: Psilosophy328] * 4
    #28361960 - 06/16/23 10:54 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Psilosophy328 said:
The fluorescence is interesting indeed. However, why suspect it's due to b carbolines (BCs) if they aren't detected using HPLC, and the bioassays don't support presence of BCs (short duration of effects). Why continue to look closer for them? Perhaps look at isolating whatever is fluorescing (test different extracts/elution for fluorescence), and try to elucidate the structure? Would need NMR I guess though.

What did show up on the HPLC?




They arnt detected on the hplc in typical method preps because they are below the limit of detection. In the original discovery paper they use a fluorescence detector and mass spectrometer to detect them in the smaller quantities they are present at. The limit of detection is much higher with UV, the detector I have.

While bioassays are great data to further investigate, so far concentrations of b carbolines have not been found to be high enough to have significant contribution to the experience. I’m not saying that it’s out the door, but it’s  likely they’re present in most Psilocybe at low concentrations. Since we already know that b carbolines and lumichrome are fluorescent molecules found in the mushroom, they’re good first candidates to screen for. Also psilocin on its own can be quite long lasting, a 20mg dose of psilocin isolate can last 6 hours. Trip durations might in part be due to how the mushroom is prepared before consuming and also how strong it is, on top of other factors not understood possibly.

Again, extremely small quantities can fluoresce bright. So I will try to make more concentrated and try again, and I’ll do tlc against the carbolines, which can qualitatively show their presence.

As far as what did show up in the chromatography, it’s limited by what im looking for. In my case, im looking for tryptamines, so I see them. There are other peaks that are unknown to me, and probably more that I didn’t see because I was not looking for them. I can overlay the chromatogram with a typical cubensis and see if there is any differences.





I may have already added these here further back. These are simple tryptamine analysees, not looking for carbolines when I made them.


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Offlineclampconnected
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: kirkeng] * 1
    #28361964 - 06/16/23 10:56 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

kirkeng said:
@clamp, yeah the lumichrome is what the folks I’m talking with think. I won’t pretend to know shit about that though, I’m simply repeating from someone more knowledgeable on the subject. But I’m glad more people are looking into it!

It still makes me wonder though why some pan cyans flouresce and others don’t. What is the purpose of that flourescence and is there any clues based on where they’re from that has caused them to flouresce. But I’m also unfamiliar with taxonomy and such, but in my mind I would of thought that flourescence should persist in all localities of the same species which it is not doing. Sorry this is a bit off topic considering it’s about panaeolus cyanescens, but maybe you have some insight?





Yeah I’m not totally sure! We will have to keep digging to find out!


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Invisiblekirkeng
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: clampconnected] * 2
    #28361983 - 06/16/23 11:26 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Word, well ya gotta love a good mystery! I messaged Allen to see if he had any ideas, for now we keep exploring I suppose.. by the way are your tests on mycelium or fruit bodies? Apologies if you already said which. I’ve been looking at fruit bodies, though most of those papers are on mycelium if I’m not mistaken.


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Offlineclampconnected
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: kirkeng] * 2
    #28362010 - 06/16/23 11:48 AM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

kirkeng said:
Word, well ya gotta love a good mystery! I messaged Allen to see if he had any ideas, for now we keep exploring I suppose.. by the way are your tests on mycelium or fruit bodies? Apologies if you already said which. I’ve been looking at fruit bodies, though most of those papers are on mycelium if I’m not mistaken.




I’m playing around with both. I went to hang out with Felix, the guy that discovered the B carbolines, and we did an extraction on fruit bodies. So they are in both, but I think higher concentrations In the mycelium.


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Invisiblekirkeng
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: clampconnected] * 1
    #28362162 - 06/16/23 01:44 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Very cool man! Please keep me/us updated I’ve been getting more and more interested.


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: kirkeng] * 10
    #28362472 - 06/16/23 07:22 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Just how big are these able to get? My last bags didn’t produce any great flushes, but did produce a number of big dense fruit. 1/4” solid stipes.



And some big caps. So who else is growing big ones? I’m going to try to clone and see if I can get them to continue like this, or if there may be some environmental reason they got so big this time.



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Offlinechris77
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: RoscoeReturns] * 1
    #28362874 - 06/17/23 03:15 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Is it only me or do others also find semperviva to taste particularly bitter and "metallic"?
not that i would mind, but compared to some cubensis or natalensis that i know, these are less "delicious".


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InvisibleKonbri
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: chris77] * 1
    #28362904 - 06/17/23 05:01 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Yes, when eaten fresh they are very bitter, I really enjoyed it


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Invisibleshruglife
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: chris77]
    #28363599 - 06/17/23 06:26 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

chris77 said:
Is it only me or do others also find semperviva to taste particularly bitter and "metallic"?
not that i would mind, but compared to some cubensis or natalensis that i know, these are less "delicious".




Just the opposite here. Barely any taste. I love taking fresh semps and sautéing them in garlic, butter, and spinach. Tastiest trip I’ve had.

Fwiw I’m speaking of the fast lineage. I’ve observed comments on people with slow lineage being bitter and metallic. Maybe a misleading anecdotal observation?  I don’t remember which ones you‘ve been growing.


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Invisiblethe_chosen_one
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: shruglife] * 4
    #28364134 - 06/18/23 08:14 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

shruglife said:
Quote:

chris77 said:
Is it only me or do others also find semperviva to taste particularly bitter and "metallic"?
not that i would mind, but compared to some cubensis or natalensis that i know, these are less "delicious".




Just the opposite here. Barely any taste. I love taking fresh semps and sautéing them in garlic, butter, and spinach. Tastiest trip I’ve had.

Fwiw I’m speaking of the fast lineage. I’ve observed comments on people with slow lineage being bitter and metallic. Maybe a misleading anecdotal observation?  I don’t remember which ones you‘ve been growing.




Actually, I think you're on to something. Does anyone have the ability to run a terpene profile?
It seems to be a forgotten factor in mushrooms. At least in the OMC. Science is, of course, way ahead of us in this regard. But they have only scratched the surface being the primary focus is on health benefits.
Personally, I think they play a huge role in fungi. Both in effect and within their own life cycle. Example: Ever wonder why things smell shroomy just before fruiting?
How can a cube just be a cube when the terpene and terpenoid profile vary so much from strain to strain? It's like saying cannabis is just cannabis and it's all the same. :lol:


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Offlinechris77
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: the_chosen_one] * 3
    #28364138 - 06/18/23 08:26 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

the_chosen_one said:
Quote:

shruglife said:
Quote:

chris77 said:
Is it only me or do others also find semperviva to taste particularly bitter and "metallic"?
not that i would mind, but compared to some cubensis or natalensis that i know, these are less "delicious".




Just the opposite here. Barely any taste. I love taking fresh semps and sautéing them in garlic, butter, and spinach. Tastiest trip I’ve had.

Fwiw I’m speaking of the fast lineage. I’ve observed comments on people with slow lineage being bitter and metallic. Maybe a misleading anecdotal observation?  I don’t remember which ones you‘ve been growing.




Actually, I think you're on to something. Does anyone have the ability to run a terpene profile?
It seems to be a forgotten factor in mushrooms. At least in the OMC. Science is, of course, way ahead of us in this regard. But they have only scratched the surface being the primary focus is on health benefits.
Personally, I think they play a huge role in fungi. Both in effect and within their own life cycle. Example: Ever wonder why things smell shroomy just before fruiting?
How can a cube just be a cube when the terpene and terpenoid profile vary so much from strain to strain? It's like saying cannabis is just cannabis and it's all the same. :lol:



i couldn't agree more. just because we have identified the major alkaloids, doesn't mean that we are aware of all the effective compounds in the mushroom, however minuscule the amounts.


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Invisiblekirkeng
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: chris77] * 1
    #28364164 - 06/18/23 09:05 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I’d wonder as well if that’s having an effect on fresh vs dry, I think some terpenes are quite volatile and could be evaporated during drying? I wonder if that could play a role in varied effect from wet vs dry. At least my friend mentioned this in regards to lions mane and such…

Edit: I find them very bitter/metallic in the fast genetics as well.


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Invisiblethe_chosen_one
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: chris77] * 4
    #28364181 - 06/18/23 09:39 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I believe there is a bigger harmony to things and it takes moving through our lives to begin to realize.. nothing is ever truly proven or set. :levitate:

Pride and confidence are a double edged sword. Better be careful swinging that thing around.

I was in a weird trollish kind of thread a ways back. Kinda feeling like shit and cranky. Somehow the abort potency topic came up again. Some were convinced that aborts are no more potent.. period.
Well, that depends on what you call an abort and what stage it's in. Of course if it's dead it's not producing alkaloids like it was. But what happens to fruit when it breaks down? Never got drunk on fresh fruit. :lol:
Who knows what it's doing in the beginning before it's dead. Stress can do some strange things. Most life forms tend to change up their chemical composition when exposed. And each responds case by case.
Besides. It's not up to us to dictate what a mushroom does or doesn't do. Awe is a far better state to be in than arrogance.
Do we even know what potency even really is? We're dealing with an epic life form here that views life and communicates on a completely different level..
I don't know. :shrug: I'm gonna climb off this mountain top and go find my bong.


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Invisiblekirkeng
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: the_chosen_one] * 3
    #28364198 - 06/18/23 09:56 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

I feel that, sometimes I’m conflicted, on one end I like data and analysis because it can help us better understand things, to a degree of course. On the other hand I despise data and analysis because to some regard I think it can destroy the “magic” or wonder of things. Of course that depends on the perspective your taking, science can be magic but it also can’t. I’m more drawn to stories and tales as a general world view and find the creativity in individual myths to be more palatable personally as the messaging can be melded and catered to the individual. I dunno I think both are necessary but I find myself appreciating the stories and common creativity more.


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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: kirkeng]
    #28364201 - 06/18/23 10:02 AM (7 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

kirkeng said:
I’d wonder as well if that’s having an effect on fresh vs dry, I think some terpenes are quite volatile and could be evaporated during drying? I wonder if that could play a role in varied effect from wet vs dry. At least my friend mentioned this in regards to lions mane and such…

Edit: I find them very bitter/metallic in the fast genetics as well.




Another excellent point and very likely plays a role in the equation.
:awehigh:


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OfflinePsilosophy328
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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: clampconnected]
    #28365750 - 06/19/23 03:07 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

clampconnected said:


As far as what did show up in the chromatography, it’s limited by what im looking for. In my case, im looking for tryptamines, so I see them. There are other peaks that are unknown to me, and probably more that I didn’t see because I was not looking for them. I can overlay the chromatogram with a typical cubensis and see if there is any differences.





I may have already added these here further back. These are simple tryptamine analysees, not looking for carbolines when I made them.




Very cool CC! I very much appreciate your ability to do this and your efforts. I'm not a chemist and probably don't have the chops to be helpful, but I did some skimming and found at least a gas chromatogram for cubensis, which qualitatively looks similar, with some unidentified peaks occurring before psilocin elution.

I guess I'm just trying to inspire you to go for the "big fish" in this case and look for whatever it is that seems to cause a subjectively unique experience (seems like the BC path is a dead end at this point) It does seem like there's enough psilocin/cybin in those fruit bodies for the experience (based on material content/dosage) to be nothing more than the standard four alkaloids. On the other hand, I want to know what is the bitterness about. Is it kavalactone type compounds like the case the Gymnopilus species? (also quite bitter). Perhaps an opioid receptor agonist? Seems a nice body sensation and euphoria are common, suggesting that they may contain something that pacifies the emotions like muscle relaxers/benzodiazepine type compounds or opioid agonists, which also both lend a nice bodily feeling.


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Re: Official Ps. Subtropicalis/Semperviva Thread [Re: Psilosophy328] * 9
    #28366685 - 06/20/23 06:37 AM (7 months, 5 days ago)



I tried giving this 16qt more FAE than usual expecting larger, flatter caps. Nope! :lol: Hefty fruits, though. Kept the lid latched until 100%, then cased & left the lid propped up about an inch above the tub.

I’m curious about the duration of the experience. My guinea pig has a low sensitivity & takes 4g at a time. He consistently reports experiences lasting 6+ hours. Mine are short but I never go over 1g. Those of you who have sent it with large doses, is the experience still brief?


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