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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
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Quote:
TheEschatologist said: For therapy, some people respond better to more frequent medium doses than infrequent high doses over the long term. Especially if you have some kind of trauma and/or persistent mental health issue, that kind of thing can't be fixed overnight with a single big trip or two. I know the desperation in wanting to heal fast and just be better, but IME it takes time to whittle down that mountain.
This is a really good point. Just because a lot of the studies, for whatever reason, have looked at the effects of a single dose doesn't mean that's the most effective way or even desirable. I've tripped many many times now, and am bipolar, and done them at the peak of the depressive phase as well, and one thing that they really do is reset the cycle to the other side. They also bring the good feelings and reconnect to better things, but the effects really seem cumulative.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


Registered: 01/02/14
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: PrimalSoup]
#27040943 - 11/15/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are exceptions to be made though imo. My gf for example is someone who could really benefit from Psychedelic therapy, but she hardly ever has enough time or the right headspace to dive in, plus she's a bit hesitant/nervous/anxious/fearful about it. She could definitely benefit from regular or occasional dosing with lighter to moderate dosages but i think she would benefit most from a bit more of a fully immersive dosage especially since she's not in the position to dose more frequently/occasionally, so trying to get her the most out of an experience once in a blue moon would probably be the better way to go, for her, imo. People really need that mystical experience and perspective shift and higher understanding of things.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: Sabnock]
#27041359 - 11/15/20 10:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know people who could benefit but aren't sold enough to try it. But it's not either/or, it's a combination of approaches and the individual should probably find their best one. They'll know when it works.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
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Quote:
TheEschatologist said: Ah ok, thanks for your reply. Having done 2 medium dose (~2g) trips, I reckon you you’re right around where you should be on the adjustment scale. My first trips at that level were also really tough because I didn’t know how to swim in the current yet, so to speak. The more experiences you get under your belt the more you get used to it, though that’s not to say it ever gets super easy. Over time one learns how to engage and work with the discomfort as opposed to just white knuckling it and hoping you’ll make it to the other side. So keep persevering!
To try and describe the quality of the discomfort – that’s difficult to put into words as you know. I dug up a post I made a while ago describing my 4g trip, paraphrasing: ‘my awareness of every second of the trip was divided into crystal clear conscious milliseconds, and every millisecond was filled a desperate repetition of the same plea "make it stop, make it stop, make it stop..." Because of the time dilation it basically felt like an eternity of hell. It was a state of utter rejection of everything i felt or was in that moment.’ That’s kind of melodramatic in retrospect but when you’re in it it’s indescribably uncomfortable. Can only compare it to a non-drug induced panic attack really.
I’m just spitballing here but in IME chronic depression carries an element of disassociation/self-rejection which gets amplified by mushrooms. This makes it tough to just accept the experience and go with it, because you need to accept yourself first to do that, but the psychedelic is dissolving the boundaries that were holding back the aspects of yourself that you fundamentally don’t like. Hence the struggle.
I hear you re the nausea, some folks have a kind of instinctual fear of throwing up which gets magnified when on psychs. I find forcing myself to purge helps, but yeah everyone’s different so best use whatever means you need to manage it.
The bolded quote there is probably a large variable for you!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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MrStinkyShrooman
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27041655 - 11/16/20 06:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Last trip, a week ago. Mushrooms lead me to good old cleansing purge. Felt absolutely great afterward.  Aya crowd for years tell everybody about magical purging and it's effects.
-------------------- The whole process of nature is an integrated process of immense complexity, and it’s really impossible to tell whether anything that happens in it is good or bad — because you never know what will be the consequence of the misfortune; or, you never know what will be the consequences of good fortune. -- Alan Watts --
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Socrateshroom
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: quikotte]
#27041947 - 11/16/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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As most have pointed out, lower doses can cause such a phenomenon (all "pre-trip" or "come-up" anxiety, no emergence into a psychedelic state).
My most disturbing, uncomfortable and hellish experience was on just 1g.
However, I think, once you get used to lower doses, that usually gives way to some pretty therapeutic experiences.
When I started my journey, my ego was too afraid to dive into standard (3g+) doses. So I played around at the 1-2g range. After some time, I got used to that dose range and had overwhelmingly good experiences. But you need to temper your expectations when using lower doses. If you expect a full psychedelic experience on 1-2g of average strength, non-PE cubes, you might have a bad time because the expectation won't come to fruition.
However, if you just let the experience take you, those lower doses can be incredibly beneficial.
Overall, I now prefer higher doses (3g+ or 1.5g+ of PE/APE) but I do them infrequently (once every 1-2 months). If I want to use mushrooms more frequently, I like micro-dosing or using lower doses as they don't have as long an integration period and can be incredibly beneficial in the immediate.
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Psicomb


Registered: 01/13/18
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Loc: the womb
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: quikotte]
#27041998 - 11/16/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Low doses certainly have their value. I have a friend who trips all the time but he swears by 1 gram / 1 hit trips. That's where he gets his value and anything beyond that is too much for him. I tend to get the most out of 5g / 3+ hit trips but I certainly dont knock lower doses either. It is all subject to be difficult or incredible in my book
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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quikotte
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@TheEschatologist
I don't think that in my case the discomfort is connected with self-rejection. It was a very pure sensation. It wasn't about me.
But yes, the rest of what you describe seems to match my experience very well.
Did you learn to deal with it eventually?
@Karuna
Yes, I did read that study. Tripping at 2g is very interesting and valuable, but doesn't seem to have much of an effect on my depression.
Doing tea is pretty much obligatory for me: I have no problems eating mushroom in general, but cubes give me hard nausea.
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TheEschatologist
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g *DELETED* [Re: quikotte] 1
#27043158 - 11/17/20 12:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by TheEschatologist
Reason for deletion: ,
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: quikotte]
#27043197 - 11/17/20 01:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Another thing to keep in mind, too, OP, is depending on frequency, dosages can and will do different things!
I.E. 2g dry once a year will impact you differently than a tolerance built around 2g dry once a month, or once every two weeks, etc.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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WeebleWobble
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27043375 - 11/17/20 07:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is your depression coming to the surface. You gotta surrender. I agree, at a higher dose you might be able to push through it. Surrender and release.
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WeebleWobble
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: Psicomb]
#27043376 - 11/17/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psicomvb said: Low doses certainly have their value. I have a friend who trips all the time but he swears by 1 gram / 1 hit trips. That's where he gets his value and anything beyond that is too much for him. I tend to get the most out of 5g / 3+ hit trips but I certainly dont knock lower doses either. It is all subject to be difficult or incredible in my book 
I get benefit from low doses but didn't at first. I was too closed off. You gotta crack the shell open and a high dose is often needed for that. Once you are open you can release trauma just by meditating properly and a low dose trip is just advanced meditating really.
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Hartford
Lawful Good



Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 1,130
Loc: Tennessee
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: WeebleWobble]
#27043502 - 11/17/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Listen to what your conscience is telling you and make the necessary changes to get to a place where you have a fulfilling experience on the low doses before trying anything higher. Obviously.
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EarthwormJim
No stranger



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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: PsychonautCX]
#27044215 - 11/17/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PsychonautCX said: Something to consider is that 2g doesn’t always translate to a 2g trip. Depending on the species and strain (Golden Teachers and Penis Envy are considerably stronger than say the Pf Classic strain) and the tek you used (if any) a 2g dose of shrooms could turn into a 5g+ trip.
Also any medications you are taking can greatly affect how psychedelics work on you. For instance I take a medication that completely nullifies ALL psychedelic effects of LSD. Turning into a speedball like meth instead of a psychedelic.
I totally second this. Meds can definitely have a negative affect on your trip. Also I've noticed that I get that incredibly uncomfortable come up/body-load on PE. Not so much on others
-------------------- Meddle not in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup Everything I post is a figment of someone's imagination. Maybe yours. Maybe mine. Likely both I see shrooms of blue In tubs of white That will keep me tripping All through the night And I think to myself What a wonderful world
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quikotte
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So I tried 3g and it went really well.
It took some preparation and it wasn't easy to find the day when I was feeling well enough to go into it, but it was worth it.
For some time I felt genuinely happy, and it's something that happens very, very rarely to me, I see how this could help in the longer term with my depression.
I did experience the difficult bit, same intensity, same overwhelming discomfort, same difficulty, but it was very short and I think I can distract myself if I don't want to deal with it. I'm still very interested in trying to learn to deal better with it and it's nice to know that I have the option to escape it, but it's not my priority.
So thanks a lot for the aggregate wisdom, it was very helpful.
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TheEschatologist
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: quikotte]
#27063842 - 11/29/20 11:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Great to hear OP! Here's to hoping it becomes a reliable tool down the line for helping with your depression Best regards
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kapps
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27065676 - 12/01/20 12:59 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: The better the trip / peak, the less comfortable the come up is. It's like going through hell to reach heaven.
That's exactly how I feel it as well. All of my shroom trips (about 3.5 to 4.5g per trip on average) are very difficult and demanding in the first hours. The greater the dose the more so. I accept this as part of the experience with shrooms. I have the feeling that the better I deal with my daemons on the come up and sometimes at the peak, the better becomes the second part of the trip. This is a very introspective experience for me and I cannot imagine to take shrooms for partying for this reason mainly.
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figjam
Random Hero


Registered: 06/23/20
Posts: 59
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 29 days
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Quote:
TheEschatologist said: How many trips have you had so far? IME mushrooms take a while to adjust to and learn how to work with - best to ease into it if you're still starting out on the journey so to speak.
And I wouldn't beat myself up too hard about not being able to handle higher doses at the moment if I were you. If 2 grams is giving you back all that you can handle right now, work with that for a while and chew on those lessons first, then push deeper down the line if you feel you've worked through what they're consistently showing you.
Also, don't invest too much in the idea that higher doses are necessarily much better for treating depression. I also have a history of MDD (and poor response to medication) and in my early mushroom taking days I thought I needed to "crack the nut" or something with a high dose and it would "show me the light" and just fix my poor mental health in one swoop. That didn't happen though - I took 4 grams and it was horribly intense and not particularly therapeutic.
For therapy, some people respond better to more frequent medium doses than infrequent high doses over the long term. Especially if you have some kind of trauma and/or persistent mental health issue, that kind of thing can't be fixed overnight with a single big trip or two. I know the desperation in wanting to heal fast and just be better, but IME it takes time to whittle down that mountain.
Re the nausea, consider letting the purge come first and then taking something for nausea after throwing up. I know this sounds counter-intuitive but purging while coming up can be a way to clear out some anxiety which otherwise just hangs around and kind of sours the trip as a whole.
To answer your question straight yeah it's perfectly normal to have a lot of discomfort. I get a lot of discomfort at less than 2 grams these days so I don't even go that high. I've gotten a kind of reverse tolerance over time it seems.
You say it doesn't feel like the mushrooms are helping with the depression. To this I'd say: 1) try doing medium doses (i.e. that are not unbearable) more frequently as opposed to pushing towards a super high dose; and 2) maybe look into working with syrian rue (or an ayahuasca analog homebrew if you're so inclined). Rue is a much more targeted and forgiving way to medicate for depression because it is literally a plant based MAOI and doesn't come with the psychological stress that classical psychedelics can bring. I used it every week for more than a year and a half and it really did wonders for my depression over that period. Again, the consistency was key. But there's no way I could've done mushrooms every week like that, so rue was superior for that specific purpose. Also there's no reason why you can't work with more than one thing, alternating of course. There's also ketamine but I'd say that's a last resort because of the addictive potential and cost factor.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat more about depression and psychs, it's the reason I started using them about 3 years ago and I'd say they've been more helpful than meds or therapy. It's just all about find what works best for you and rolling with that
Kind regards, E
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InnerWisdom


Registered: 08/09/19
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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: kapps]
#27067854 - 12/02/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would only take shrooms for partying with no more than 2g from the start, but if I were able to ride out the come up of a higher dose in solitude somewhere, that would make an epic psychedelic party mood
Edited by InnerWisdom (12/02/20 09:30 AM)
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


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Re: Overwhelming negative sensation at only 2g [Re: InnerWisdom]
#27067875 - 12/02/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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The come down on high doses with people makes for a remarkable experience if its the right people
Only been blessed with that a few times
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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