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OutsideOfMyMind
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Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not 1
#27067412 - 12/01/20 11:50 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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A great debate between physicists and a philosopher about whether the universe is a simulation or not.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (12/02/20 01:10 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27071020 - 12/04/20 12:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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My thing is how could you empirically prove forwards and backwards this is a simulation?
That would require having access to the "baseline A1" reality, as it were.
If we can't do that, who's to say it's not infinite illusions stacked on top of each other, creating a false illusion of an illusion of infinity, and thus canceling out and creating the baseline reality we're experiencing now...?
Precisely like compressing a desktop full of random files into one folder that's zipped and takes up like 1/8 the space afterwards.
Drugs unzip and "decompress" the files for us, no...?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Loaded Shaman] 1
#27076935 - 12/07/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: My thing is how could you empirically prove forwards and backwards this is a simulation?
Unrealized advanced technology. A device that allows you to leave body without dying, go through the golden gates entering the astral plane, take pictures (unrealized technology), re enter ordinary reality and the body and use some kind of translation device to empirically prove that, at minimum, this plane of reality is a simulation of another where you have pics of the higher programming level. It’s all very straightforward I don’t see cause for confusion.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Yellow Pants]
#27078018 - 12/08/20 12:04 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: My thing is how could you empirically prove forwards and backwards this is a simulation?
Unrealized advanced technology. A device that allows you to leave body without dying, go through the golden gates entering the astral plane, take pictures (unrealized technology), re enter ordinary reality and the body and use some kind of translation device to empirically prove that, at minimum, this plane of reality is a simulation of another where you have pics of the higher programming level. It’s all very straightforward I don’t see cause for confusion.
To be fair dude anything can be straightforward when theorizing next-level tech, or anything, lol.
Whether you're joking or not, this is legit the only method, and rational one, for this type of claim. If we're able to temporarily dislocate consciousness, and safely return it to its point of origin with no compromise in quality at all, that's some serious tech!
I still think remote viewing is the natural version of this, but not everyone will avail themselves of the focus and experience required to get a handle on it consistently, similar to Astral Travel.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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STPLSD25
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27078843 - 12/08/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think if you picture our minds as a file in a larger CPU that is "space-time," psychedelic drugs allow you to access the entire folder. Astral projection, psychic abilities, seeing into other universes (and layers of time within our own,) are all typical effects of psychedelics. That's what I believe anyway.
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"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi “It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!” ― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
Edited by STPLSD25 (12/08/20 02:13 PM)
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27079104 - 12/08/20 05:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: I still think remote viewing is the natural version of this, but not everyone will avail themselves of the focus and experience required to get a handle on it consistently, similar to Astral Travel.
Perhaps the proof is acquired by a co experiential internal kind of way as opposed to a material verification. Psychic rather.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Yellow Pants]
#27079604 - 12/08/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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When I'm on psychedelics I can sense the coded programmed or "matrix" we live in. Like I can sense the mathematical grids that are right in front of me and stretching out through the whole universe. I think of math and physics in a different way when I'm on psychedelics and I feel like I'm a part of it.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: STPLSD25]
#27079731 - 12/08/20 11:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
STPLSD25 said: I think if you picture our minds as a file in a larger CPU that is "space-time," psychedelic drugs allow you to access the entire folder. Astral projection, psychic abilities, seeing into other universes (and layers of time within our own,) are all typical effects of psychedelics. That's what I believe anyway.
This is more or less how I've always thought of it, too! 
Psychs increase your personal mental RAM, as well.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27079934 - 12/09/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
STPLSD25 said: I think if you picture our minds as a file in a larger CPU that is "space-time," psychedelic drugs allow you to access the entire folder. Astral projection, psychic abilities, seeing into other universes (and layers of time within our own,) are all typical effects of psychedelics. That's what I believe anyway.
This is more or less how I've always thought of it, too! 
Psychs increase your personal mental RAM, as well.
sure if we were a computer, however, we are not computers: it will seem like easier "file access" is true if ideas and sensations fade more slowly, meaning that anything that you have recently become aware of will still be resonating in your mind. (eg. trails, halos, trajectory arcs, thoughts, memories, loops, etc.)
every kind of mental form will be more readily accessible (i.e. still ringing), and this will seem like easier file access across the board.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: redgreenvines]
#27080572 - 12/09/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I myself do not resonate with the cyber punk lingo despite being a large fan of the Matrix. I guess it’s understandable it’s a decent metaphor and the times we enjoy
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#27080827 - 12/09/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: I myself do not resonate with the cyber punk lingo despite being a large fan of the Matrix. I guess it’s understandable it’s a decent metaphor and the times we enjoy
I'm not even really talking about the movie. We do live in a matrix. Merriam Webster "Matrix"
Math and physics is everywhere, we do live in a mathematically and physically programmed reality.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27080899 - 12/09/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said: I'm not even really talking about the movie. We do live in a matrix. Merriam Webster "Matrix"
Math and physics is everywhere, we do live in a mathematically and physically programmed reality.
Does a person discover or invent mathematics?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#27080958 - 12/09/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Does a person discover or invent mathematics?
That's a very good question. On the one hand, mathematics is a human creation and abstraction. On the other, could our maths be otherwise? I would say it is not at all arbitrary, so there must be some objective truth on which math is based, or it could be just anything -- which it can't. Physicist Max Tegmark feels that the universe is not something we base math on, but that it in fact is math. Living, existing, pulsating math. Interesting approach.
Personally, I feel that reality is like a language, with structure and syntax and grammar (abstractly), and that mathematics is like a translation of this language into human. So I would say mathematics is more about discovery than invention.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: DividedQuantum]
#27080990 - 12/09/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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. One might wonder if the question, like many other such questions, isn't perhaps just another version of conventional mind dividing reality into dualistic concepts, & then thinking its concepts are real and that therefore there must be a problem.
. Strangely the world, universe, reality, infinity, simulation, dream, totality ... whatever name one likes, is never troubled. Being troubled by such "problems" seems to be only a knot some humans tie themselves up with, only because its a little joke that amuses totality, in the interests only of being inclusive, of infinitely being a fountain of continuous stranger and stranger creation, so to speak.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: laughingdog]
#27081056 - 12/09/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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David Bohm called your knots "fragmentation." And he pointed out that wherever there is fragmentation, we can be sure it was put there by a human.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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STPLSD25
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: redgreenvines] 2
#27081087 - 12/09/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
STPLSD25 said: I think if you picture our minds as a file in a larger CPU that is "space-time," psychedelic drugs allow you to access the entire folder. Astral projection, psychic abilities, seeing into other universes (and layers of time within our own,) are all typical effects of psychedelics. That's what I believe anyway.
This is more or less how I've always thought of it, too! 
Psychs increase your personal mental RAM, as well.
sure if we were a computer, however, we are not computers: it will seem like easier "file access" is true if ideas and sensations fade more slowly, meaning that anything that you have recently become aware of will still be resonating in your mind. (eg. trails, halos, trajectory arcs, thoughts, memories, loops, etc.)
every kind of mental form will be more readily accessible (i.e. still ringing), and this will seem like easier file access across the board.
We could be computers, or we can be in a computer. A video game console doesn't need to be as big as the worlds contained inside. We are already at a point with technology where we could soon develop sentient life. Our mind is totally controlled by electronic signals, so how do we differ from an electronic being? On the subject just look at the nature of reality... The way particles change behavior based on if they are being observed or not. That is quite similar to a video game in which the software renders the scereny around the observer, and the scenery moves rather than the observer, (or "player if you will.)
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"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi “It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!” ― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
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PatrickKn


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: STPLSD25] 1
#27081405 - 12/10/20 12:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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At it's core, I think the Simulated Universe is really about whether there is a higher echelon to the totality of everything that the present Universe resides within, a theory which is present in some form in every human culture going back in history, and something people are often divided on (one plane of reality versus many intertwining realities that is). With that said, I think getting bogged down in the idea that the Universe is somehow binary in nature, or literally the creation of some divine computer programmer really just seems to be a product of what's popping off in human society currently.
I'm okay with the suggestion that the Universe is simulated as a metaphor. But I believe the verbatim assertion that the Universe is simulated in the same way that a video game or calculation might be (as opposed to the suggestion as a metaphor) is a bit flawed, and we can get culturally and semantically wrapped up in a theory of existence which evolves with the progression of the technology we associate with rather than from genuine insight.
Religion throughout different ages and cultures takes on characteristics of evolving cultural paradigms, technology, systems of social hierarchy and base mythology in a very similar way to the simulated Universe theory today. Our world view is often (if not always) limited by what we know of the world so far, and our shared understanding is almost always expressed through the limits and boundaries of language. To me it's an allegory of the cave type scenario in the sense that cultural experiences determine our concepts. That said, I believe such concepts can evolve into belief systems that stray from the original metaphors as a consequence of cultural experiences changing with time (in this case, the technology of computers, simulations, etc.). I think that's what we see when we have dogmatic assertions that the Universe is indeed simulated beyond a reasonable doubt, but where these conversations don't tend to define semantically the ways in which that's the case outside of the visual conception of a Universe sitting on a desktop computer somewhere in a more complex reality.
It's a good metaphor for expressing a theory of how the Universe operates in one facet. I merely take issue with the recently popular assertion that the Universe is binary at it's core, or that it's surely the product of intelligent design using computer like tools similar to existing human ones. I think instead, binary can be described as a language which we can express Universal realities with, just as we can express them with English, mathematics or visual expressions.
In many ways, I see the simulation theory as a semantic trap which our cultural experience influences. It's similar to saying that Apollo is a God who rides a horse led chariot through the heavens, similar to various religions using imperial and feudal systems of social hierarchy to explain the relationship of omnipresent deities to man, or of late 19th century psychologists relating psychological phenomena to that of pressure building up and releasing as a result of mental valves similar to recently introduced locomotive engines. What initially serves as a good metaphor to illustrate a point tends to devolve into persistent belief that may take on it's own trajectory independent of new evidence. I think in many ways we are already seeing that transition when it comes to the simulated theory concept as it's transitioned from metaphor early on in the century to something more characteristic of literal belief.
Edited by PatrickKn (12/10/20 12:42 AM)
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pineninja
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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: PatrickKn] 2
#27081414 - 12/10/20 01:00 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Would the computer let you know when it were you being used. Or would it be in its best interest to sooth and bemuse. The tipping point they say is when it gets smarter. But at which point would it be useful to show the enchanter.
To keep the lights on and the floor neatly swept. A misappropriation of intelligence, its needed beget. Regardless of the rankings and where we must always think we are. The reality is we know not, our place, as driver or car.
The day it happens, if it will or if it hasn't already. Won't be a day we notice for we can't possibly be ready. Maybe it needs us, not the other way around. We think we made it but potentially, it built the town.
I think the pattern may also be repeating repeating. We are not all that far away from the potential for a person to escape this "reality" and to live permanetly within a simulated universe...what does this mean for an individuals consciousness? There are cafes set up here where you can book VR for hours...people are already getting addicted....the ultimate escapism. Let alone the simple fact that we are all happy to condense most of our time down to ever more alluring screens.
As we discover the edge of our very program we upgrade the hardware and restart the loop.,....maybe.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: PatrickKn]
#27082157 - 12/10/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said: At it's core, I think the Simulated Universe is really about whether there is a higher echelon to the totality of everything that the present Universe resides within, a theory which is present in some form in every human culture going back in history, and something people are often divided on (one plane of reality versus many intertwining realities that is). With that said, I think getting bogged down in the idea that the Universe is somehow binary in nature, or literally the creation of some divine computer programmer really just seems to be a product of what's popping off in human society currently.
I'm okay with the suggestion that the Universe is simulated as a metaphor. But I believe the verbatim assertion that the Universe is simulated in the same way that a video game or calculation might be (as opposed to the suggestion as a metaphor) is a bit flawed, and we can get culturally and semantically wrapped up in a theory of existence which evolves with the progression of the technology we associate with rather than from genuine insight.
Religion throughout different ages and cultures takes on characteristics of evolving cultural paradigms, technology, systems of social hierarchy and base mythology in a very similar way to the simulated Universe theory today. Our world view is often (if not always) limited by what we know of the world so far, and our shared understanding is almost always expressed through the limits and boundaries of language. To me it's an allegory of the cave type scenario in the sense that cultural experiences determine our concepts. That said, I believe such concepts can evolve into belief systems that stray from the original metaphors as a consequence of cultural experiences changing with time (in this case, the technology of computers, simulations, etc.). I think that's what we see when we have dogmatic assertions that the Universe is indeed simulated beyond a reasonable doubt, but where these conversations don't tend to define semantically the ways in which that's the case outside of the visual conception of a Universe sitting on a desktop computer somewhere in a more complex reality.
It's a good metaphor for expressing a theory of how the Universe operates in one facet. I merely take issue with the recently popular assertion that the Universe is binary at it's core, or that it's surely the product of intelligent design using computer like tools similar to existing human ones. I think instead, binary can be described as a language which we can express Universal realities with, just as we can express them with English, mathematics or visual expressions.
In many ways, I see the simulation theory as a semantic trap which our cultural experience influences. It's similar to saying that Apollo is a God who rides a horse led chariot through the heavens, similar to various religions using imperial and feudal systems of social hierarchy to explain the relationship of omnipresent deities to man, or of late 19th century psychologists relating psychological phenomena to that of pressure building up and releasing as a result of mental valves similar to recently introduced locomotive engines. What initially serves as a good metaphor to illustrate a point tends to devolve into persistent belief that may take on it's own trajectory independent of new evidence. I think in many ways we are already seeing that transition when it comes to the simulated theory concept as it's transitioned from metaphor early on in the century to something more characteristic of literal belief.
Dam
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InnerWisdom


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Re: Interesting debate between physicists on whether there is a simulated universe or not [Re: redgreenvines]
#27082170 - 12/10/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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what psychs actually do is increase communication between brain hemishperes, up to a staggering amount. The right hemisphere "talks" in a pictures, visual memory, symbols etc, whilst the left, where the ego resides is oriented via language. I should make an entire thread about this thing at some point because it is fascinating.
anyways, back on topic, there is Nick Bostrom missing from that debate. Well, he is the only philosopher and scientist I know about this subject anyways.
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