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OfflineOort Cloud Weasel
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Registered: 10/11/20
Posts: 14
Last seen: 3 years, 11 days
Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk
    #27066277 - 12/01/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I had heard of some growers having success spawning grated brf cakes to a bulk substrate so I thought I would give it a go. I had 5 healthy, colonized 1/2 pint jars of Chitawan and 10 cups of bulk substrate purchased from Shroom Supply. I added my substrate to my monotub and grated my cakes into the substrate. I mixed it all up, put a lid on the tub, double wrapped it in dark plastic garbage bags then put that into a paper bag then put that on a top shelf at a temperature at around 75f. I would not disturb this tub for 10 days. So far so good.

10 days later I opened my tub expecting the surface to be colonized and white with mycillium, but when I opened the tub, it looked pretty much the same as it did 10 days ago. I checked the substrate/grated brf cakes mixture for field capacity and it was about perfect.

Can anyone shed some light on why my tub did not colonize, and what I might do to get it going?

I spawned another smaller tub yesterday using 2 jars of Malabar grated into 5 cups of substrate and got that wrapped up and sitting in perfect temps for colonizing. So if anyone has any idea on what I could do differently as an experiment I would be open to that.


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Offlinetiptrippy
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Oort Cloud Weasel]
    #27066407 - 12/01/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?

Mushrooms won't grow in dirt with no water.


Edited by tiptrippy (12/01/20 02:02 PM)


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OfflineOort Cloud Weasel
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Registered: 10/11/20
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: tiptrippy]
    #27066449 - 12/01/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity when I bought it. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs. I rechecked the field capacity of the sub mixed withe the grated brF cakes, squeezed hard and got a couple drops, so I think my moisture content is ok. 


Edited by Oort Cloud Weasel (12/01/20 02:13 PM)


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Oort Cloud Weasel] * 1
    #27066465 - 12/01/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs.




Don't use nutritious substrate (like hpoo) when spawning cakes.

Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake.

Coir alone is sufficient for going brf to bulk.

Also what was your exact ratio of spawn to substrate? I see 5 jars to 10 cups of substrate?

Do you mean a cup "casually" or measured accurately.

If that's the case 1 cup = half a pint. So 5 half pint jars and 10 cups (or 10 half pints) is 1:2 ratio. That could take longer to colonize than a 1:1 ratio. 10-14 days.

And did you use a casing layer?


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Socrateshroom] * 1
    #27066509 - 12/01/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

All above are valid questions. Pre made substrate can be hit or miss, and you really have no way of knowing. More importantly, why did you double wrap your tub in garbage bags? Mush need fresh air, maybe not a lot during colonization, but still you don’t need to strangle the poor bastards. Also light is good, you don’t need to colonize in the dark.

I’ve done many BRF cake to bulk grows. Crumble cakes to sub in a shoebox or mono, put on the lid. That’s really all there is to it.


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OfflineOort Cloud Weasel
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Registered: 10/11/20
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Last seen: 3 years, 11 days
Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #27066510 - 12/01/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs.




Don't use nutritious substrate (like hpoo) when spawning cakes.

Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake.

Coir alone is sufficient for going brf to bulk.

Also what was your exact ratio of spawn to substrate? I see 5 jars to 10 cups of substrate?

Do you mean a cup "casually" or measured accurately.

If that's the case 1 cup = half a pint. So 5 half pint jars and 10 cups (or 10 half pints) is 1:2 ratio. That could take longer to colonize than a 1:1 ratio. 10-14 days.

And did you use a casing layer?



Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs.




Don't use nutritious substrate (like hpoo) when spawning cakes.

Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake.

Coir alone is sufficient for going brf to bulk.

Also what was your exact ratio of spawn to substrate? I see 5 jars to 10 cups of substrate?

Do you mean a cup "casually" or measured accurately.

If that's the case 1 cup = half a pint. So 5 half pint jars and 10 cups (or 10 half pints) is 1:2 ratio. That could take longer to colonize than a 1:1 ratio. 10-14 days.

And did you use a casing layer?




Didn't know that about nutritious subs and brf cake spawning. Do you think that will destroy this project?

"Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake." Maybe you could explain this to me. MS?


I inoculated my brf cakes using a pre-filled spore syringe.

I used a 1:2 ratio exactly, knowing one half pint jar=1 cup. I measured the substrate also, 10 cups exactly.

i was planning on applying a casing layer on the colonized sub.

So given that i should have used a 1:1 ratio, maybe I should put the tub on a shelf for another couple weeks. Too bad I disturbed the substrate when I checked it for field capacity, but it had to be done.

Do you have a good tek when spawning brf cakes to bulk? Is so that would be super awesome. Would like to understand it more


Edited by Oort Cloud Weasel (12/01/20 02:44 PM)


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Registered: 02/12/18
Posts: 1,756
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Oort Cloud Weasel]
    #27066520 - 12/01/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs.




Don't use nutritious substrate (like hpoo) when spawning cakes.

Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake.

Coir alone is sufficient for going brf to bulk.

Also what was your exact ratio of spawn to substrate? I see 5 jars to 10 cups of substrate?

Do you mean a cup "casually" or measured accurately.

If that's the case 1 cup = half a pint. So 5 half pint jars and 10 cups (or 10 half pints) is 1:2 ratio. That could take longer to colonize than a 1:1 ratio. 10-14 days.

And did you use a casing layer?



Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Quote:

tiptrippy said:
Was the substrate you purchased already pasteurized and hydrated? You never mentioned adding water and checking field capacity.

What kind of substrate mix?




Yes it was pasturized and at perfect field capacity. I bought it from Shroom Supply, has hpoo, coir, gypsum, verm. I used the sub in four other monotub grows colonized with rye berry grain spawn, and am currently having success with all four tubs.




Don't use nutritious substrate (like hpoo) when spawning cakes.

Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake.

Coir alone is sufficient for going brf to bulk.

Also what was your exact ratio of spawn to substrate? I see 5 jars to 10 cups of substrate?

Do you mean a cup "casually" or measured accurately.

If that's the case 1 cup = half a pint. So 5 half pint jars and 10 cups (or 10 half pints) is 1:2 ratio. That could take longer to colonize than a 1:1 ratio. 10-14 days.

And did you use a casing layer?




Didn't know that about nutritious subs and brf cake spawning. Do you think that will destroy this project?

"Grains, assuming you inoculated with an agar wedge of clean myc, is much cleaner than an MS inoculated brf cake." Maybe you could explain this to me. MS?


I inoculated my brf cakes using a pre-filled spore syringe.

I used a 1:2 ratio exactly, knowing one half pint jar=1 cup. I measured the substrate also, 10 cups exactly.

i was planning on applying a casing layer on the colonized sub.

So given that i should have used a 1:1 ratio, maybe I should put the tub on a shelf for another couple weeks. Too bad I disturbed the substrate when I checked it for field capacity, but it had to be done.





MS is multi spore, basically what you did. Shooting a syringe into BRF jar. Syringes and prints are never clean. Mush fruit in open air, so are likely to have contaminants along with the spores. BRF cakes are usually not clean either, but suit the mycelium better than competitors, and are small enough to colonize before other things can gain a foothold. Usually. Adding unclean cakes to a nutritious substrate allows the contaminants to grow and spoil your tub. Coir is pretty contam resistant, and is the substrate of choice when using cakes as spawn.


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OfflineOort Cloud Weasel
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Registered: 10/11/20
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27066533 - 12/01/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RoscoeReturns said:
All above are valid questions. Pre made substrate can be hit or miss, and you really have no way of knowing. More importantly, why did you double wrap your tub in garbage bags? Mush need fresh air, maybe not a lot during colonization, but still you don’t need to strangle the poor bastards. Also light is good, you don’t need to colonize in the dark.

I’ve done many BRF cake to bulk grows. Crumble cakes to sub in a shoebox or mono, put on the lid. That’s really all there is to it.




From the research I've done, the co2 and the darkness helps the colonization process. But then, there are so many different opinions on how to grow that I can't do everything everyone says. I just decided which route to go and stick with it. Thanks for your input though, will consider everything


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OfflineOort Cloud Weasel
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Registered: 10/11/20
Posts: 14
Last seen: 3 years, 11 days
Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27066541 - 12/01/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

MS is multi spore, basically what you did. Shooting a syringe into BRF jar. Syringes and prints are never clean. Mush fruit in open air, so are likely to have contaminants along with the spores. BRF cakes are usually not clean either, but suit the mycelium better than competitors, and are small enough to colonize before other things can gain a foothold. Usually. Adding unclean cakes to a nutritious substrate allows the contaminants to grow and spoil your tub. Coir is pretty contam resistant, and is the substrate of choice when using cakes as spawn.

That makes alot of sense, thanks!


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Oort Cloud Weasel]
    #27067490 - 12/02/20 01:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
MS is multi spore.



The term y'all are looking for is SS (spore solution) you inoculated with a spore solution and the cultures you're growing from spores will be MS cultures (multi strain) :thumbup:
Besides 'multi spore' is a nonsensical term, it's like saying 'mammal humans'. All cultures come from 'multiple' spores mating. Gl


--------------------
Cakes inside Water Tub


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Oort Cloud Weasel]
    #27067686 - 12/02/20 07:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
Do you have a good tek when spawning brf cakes to bulk? Is so that would be super awesome. Would like to understand it more




Here's the brf to bulk thread

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24945782

Brf to bulk is pretty simple. Break apart/Shred the cakes (i like using a cheese grater). Mix them with prepped coir using your desired ratio (I like to use 1:1).

Optional: apply a casing layer of coir to the top.

End.

Here's the tek for preparing coir:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24077162/fpart/1/vc/1

And if you do case with coir, here's a tek I like to follow for the casing so that I don't have to mist until the first flush ends:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=2&Number=26009662&fpart=&PHPSESSID=


--------------------


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InvisibleModularMind
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Mateja]
    #27067707 - 12/02/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
Quote:

Oort Cloud Weasel said:
MS is multi spore.



The term y'all are looking for is SS (spore solution) you inoculated with a spore solution and the cultures you're growing from spores will be MS cultures (multi strain) :thumbup:
Besides 'multi spore' is a nonsensical term, it's like saying 'mammal humans'. All cultures come from 'multiple' spores mating. Gl




From shroomery.org

https://www.shroomery.org/13894/Glossary-and-Lexicon-of-The-Online-Mushroom-Communitys-OMC-terms

Quote:

Multispore- Refers to an inoculation where multiple germinations and matings occur due to the use of various spores, as in a spore solution (e.g.spore syringe) and as opposed to an isolate. Liquid cultures maysometimes be called multispore (though they contain no spores) if theywere produced from a spore solution, rather than an isolate.




It’s still multi-spore.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: ModularMind] * 1
    #27067923 - 12/02/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ModularMind said:
It’s still multi-spore.



Of course, all grows will always be multispore due to the nature of Cubensis spore mating.
And just because confusing information has been around the Shroomery for years doesn't mean it can't be easily corrected, after all the alternative makes so much more sense (like 'MS' standing for 'multi strain')


As per today with this persistent weird use of the term 'multi spore' we end up with growers calling their multi strain cultures 'MS cultures' (referring to the term 'multi spore culture'?) lolwut? But on the other hand the term 'multi strain' describes EXACTLY what it says, namely describes MS cultures. And when we refer to a grow inoculated with spore solution then why not just say "inoculated with spore solution"? :shrug:
IMO this interpretation clears up all possible confusion that may arise.


--------------------
Cakes inside Water Tub


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InvisibleModularMind
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Mateja] * 1
    #27067999 - 12/02/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

It’s established and accepted longstanding terminology within the community.

Yours is opinion only, and to correct someone erroneously spreads misinformation and creates confusion.

:shrug:


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: ModularMind] * 2
    #27068025 - 12/02/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

What's my "opinion" tho? That when growers say "it's MS" that no one really knows if they mean spore solution or live multi strain culture? This isn't my or anyone's opinions it's just a fact. :shrug: you don't have to agree with my view on this, I'm just trying to do something about this confusion instead of adding further to it just because "it says so on Shroomery". Trust me many things just "say so" on the Shroomery but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or that it's logical for that matter :thumbup: I'm certainly not the first nor the last one to nitoce this specific miss, most likely will change at some point in time as everything does eventually. And I'm not blaming anyone or saying anyone is spreading misinformation by saying "multispore" when they actually mean "spore solution", tho I will at times point out the technical fallacy of this specific term by breaking it down and potentially this will rub some people thw wrong way I'm aware this isn't the first time I'm pointing this stuff out :super:


--------------------
Cakes inside Water Tub


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Offlinebunsie
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Mateja]
    #27068545 - 12/02/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
What's my "opinion" tho? That when growers say "it's MS" that no one really knows if they mean spore solution or live multi strain culture?




I got confused at first too.
:snoopyes:


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: Mateja]
    #27068573 - 12/02/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
What's my "opinion" tho? That when growers say "it's MS" that no one really knows if they mean spore solution or live multi strain culture? This isn't my or anyone's opinions it's just a fact.



:whathesaid:
This got discussed in my Microbiology class the other night actually.


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InvisibleModularMind
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: bunsie]
    #27068590 - 12/02/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:themoreyouknow:
https://www.shroomery.org/13894/Glossary-and-Lexicon-of-The-Online-Mushroom-Communitys-OMC-terms

Generally accepted terminology within the community.

:cookiemonster:

Individuals saying “No. That means something other than what everyone else within the community has agreed it to mean”, seeds further confusion.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: ModularMind]
    #27068593 - 12/02/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Science is ever changing and terms are as ever evolving as the science that uses them.


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InvisibleModularMind
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Re: Problem colonizing grated brf cakes to bulk [Re: mushhead]
    #27068614 - 12/02/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

When someone inoculates with multiple spores (fact), they have not, at the point of inoculation, inoculated with multiple strains (also fact).
:havesomescience:


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