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OfflineMcDominator
Male


Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Someone help me tear through this new study * 1
    #27065905 - 12/01/20 07:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

New Study:

https://sci-hub.se/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/dta.2950?fbclid=IwAR27NiRc8-zB33W7SN9ogclAJAXmSszWcTS713ofv32lV8GytZl1DB8Z_JI

I'm most agitated with the section where they talk about the degradation of alkaloids in powdered shrooms. Problems:

They used bags, not jars.

No desiccants?

They tested the powder periodically, meaning they opened the bags and exposed the powder to air each time they did this?

I have some shroom powder that I plan on long term storage-ing (gasp). It's currently stored in tiny glass vials that hold about 4g each and have desiccants stuffed in them. By having individual doses closed off I'm never exposing the entire batch to grab a dose. They are stored enclosed in a cardboard box. I'm thinking that my powder will be fine, but this study had me worried. Thoughts?

There is a lot of other cool info here too. It's a good read.


--------------------
I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


Edited by McDominator (12/01/20 09:05 AM)


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Invisiblech0ppie
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/18/20
Posts: 593
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: McDominator]
    #27065938 - 12/01/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm no expert but other's have noted no perceivable degradation to the active ingredients when stored correctly.

I think your storage strategies are pretty good, dry and away from light and high temps etc.

Maybe the experts can chime in


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OfflineSocrateshroom
сталкер


Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 17 days, 7 hours
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: McDominator]
    #27065955 - 12/01/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'll pour through it when I'm not working, very interested in their findings.

Along with what you pointed out, I wonder about the efficacy of their testing methods (and which alkaloids in particular did they observe having degraded, and by how much).

Powder, due to the larger exposed surface area, is more volatile than whole shrooms. But I have experienced no loss when I powder and immediately put into capsules.

So if you have the powder stored with little to no space for air, you should be fine. And it's good that you aren't exposing the batch each time you go for a dose.


--------------------


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OfflineSocrateshroom
сталкер


Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 17 days, 7 hours
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: Socrateshroom] * 1
    #27066124 - 12/01/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Some interesting things so far:

1) They observed a higher content of psilocybin in the homogenized powder (0.62%) than in the fresh whole mushrooms (0.54%).

They did not explain how the mushrooms were grown (whether MS or from a clone).

Either way, I think this shows the value in homogenizing a batch by grinding it for consistent dosing (especially in MS).

2) They found 34% more psilocin in fresh mushrooms but all the other alkaloids were higher in the homogenized powder.

3) They tested dry mushroom caps and stipes separately to see if there was a difference in alkaloid concentration and found:

"50 % less baeocystin, psilocybin, and norbaeocystin in the stipes
than in the caps"

"The stipes contained 32 % less aeruginascin and 85 % less psilocin than the caps"

But they did add the caveat that:

"although the average content of tryptamines in caps is higher than in stipes, due to the SD, where there is high variability between individual fruiting bodies, it cannot be said that this statement applies to all fruiting bodies"

But it would seem that, on average, the caps contain a higher alkaloid content than the stipes.

4) Here's an interesting one:

"When storing mushrooms in the freezer (-20°C, -80°C), significantly lower concentrations of all of the analytes were detected except for psilocin. The most pronounced decay occurred at -80°C, where 94 % less psilocybin was measured than for samples stored in the dark at room temperature."

Pardon my ignorance but do standard freezers operate at -80°C?

If so, it would seem that storing in a dark place at room temperature would be preferable to freezing.

At the very least this seems to confirm that storage in a cool dark place, around room temperature, is adequate.

5) So at the end we get a small excerpt (# 3.7) about the degradation of the alkaloids in the dry powder after various intervals.

They state that these were stored in zip bags. No further information on the "containers" were given. Most zip bags are NOT airtight and others are made from porous plastic material. So perhaps they were being exposed to oxygen via the use of an improper (not airtight) container?

And they observed that degradation happened faster in light, which confirms the standard suggestion of storing them in a "dark" place.


Conclusion:
Some interesting stuff. I'm not sure what to make of the degradation of actives as that last part (3.7) seems light on information of the storage containers. I don't think they did their due diligence to find proper airtight containers. Or maybe they did but, for some reason, they didn't detail that fact.

Did this change anything for me? Well, not really. But I don't store loose powder. If I grind up a batch, I encapsulate the powder immediately. Otherwise I store the dry mushrooms whole until consumption or encapsulation.

But, at the very least, this study made me more interested in returning to powder as my consumption method for the simple fact of more consistent dosing.


--------------------


Edited by Socrateshroom (12/01/20 11:16 AM)


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OfflineMcDominator
Male


Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #27066184 - 12/01/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
Some interesting things so far:

1) They observed a higher content of psilocybin in the homogenized powder (0.62%) than in the fresh whole mushrooms (0.54%).

They did not explain how the mushrooms were grown (whether MS or from a clone).

Either way, I think this shows the value in homogenizing a batch by grinding it for consistent dosing (especially in MS).

2) They found 34% more psilocin in fresh mushrooms but all the other alkaloids were higher in the homogenized powder.

3) They tested dry mushroom caps and stipes separately to see if there was a difference in alkaloid concentration and found:

"50 % less baeocystin, psilocybin, and norbaeocystin in the stipes
than in the caps"

"The stipes contained 32 % less aeruginascin and 85 % less psilocin than the caps"

But they did add the caveat that:

"although the average content of tryptamines in caps is higher than in stipes, due to the SD, where there is high variability between individual fruiting bodies, it cannot be said that this statement applies to all fruiting bodies"

But it would seem that, on average, the caps contain a higher alkaloid content than the stipes.

4) Here's an interesting one:

"When storing mushrooms in the freezer (-20°C, -80°C), significantly lower concentrations of all of the analytes were detected except for psilocin. The most pronounced decay occurred at -80°C, where 94 % less psilocybin was measured than for samples stored in the dark at room temperature."

Pardon my ignorance but do standard freezers operate at -80°C?

If so, it would seem that storing in a dark place at room temperature would be preferable to freezing.

At the very least this seems to confirm that storage in a cool dark place, around room temperature, is adequate.

5) So at the end we get a small excerpt (# 3.7) about the degradation of the alkaloids in the dry powder after various intervals.

They state that these were stored in zip bags. No further information on the "containers" were given. Most zip bags are NOT airtight and others are made from porous plastic material. So perhaps they were being exposed to oxygen via the use of an improper (not airtight) container?

And they observed that degradation happened faster in light, which confirms the standard suggestion of storing them in a "dark" place.


Conclusion:
Some interesting stuff. I'm not sure what to make of the degradation of actives as that last part (3.7) seems light on information of the storage containers. I don't think they did their due diligence to find proper airtight containers. Or maybe they did but, for some reason, they didn't detail that fact.

Did this change anything for me? Well, not really. But I don't store loose powder. If I grind up a batch, I encapsulate the powder immediately. Otherwise I store the dry mushrooms whole until consumption or encapsulation.

But, at the very least, this study made me more interested in returning to powder as my consumption method for the simple fact of more consistent dosing.




Awesome cliff notes. Yes, it was cool to see that the caps are indeed typically more potent!

A quick search says that your average freezer should hover around -18C. I thought it was interesting to see that cold could degrade the alkaloids at all! There are some here who make tea out of fresh shrooms and freeze it. I'm thinking this is a different beast though since we are taking a lot of other constituents out of the equation.

As for the bags, I feel the same way. Who knows. I wish I could get in touch with someone who did the study to acquire more details on the storage method. They were so thorough with a lot of other things that I find it hard to believe they overlooked this.

And I'm definitely all for using powder. If I ever do a grow in the future I will probably make chocolates out of the whole batch :grin:

Good to hear from you my friend!


--------------------
I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


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OfflineSocrateshroom
сталкер


Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 17 days, 7 hours
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: McDominator]
    #27066250 - 12/01/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

McDominator said:
Awesome cliff notes. Yes, it was cool to see that the caps are indeed typically more potent!





Thanks!

It would seem so. Now I'm interested in "why" the caps produce (or store?) more alkaloids.

Quote:

McDominator said:
A quick search says that your average freezer should hover around -18C. I thought it was interesting to see that cold could degrade the alkaloids at all! There are some here who make tea out of fresh shrooms and freeze it. I'm thinking this is a different beast though since we are taking a lot of other constituents out of the equation.





Well their observations started at -20C and only was it very significant at -80C. So I imagine anything under -20C would cause no degradation or so little it would be unnoticeable. So our normal human use freezers should be more than safe to store in.

Quote:

McDominator said:
As for the bags, I feel the same way. Who knows. I wish I could get in touch with someone who did the study to acquire more details on the storage method. They were so thorough with a lot of other things that I find it hard to believe they overlooked this.





Yea, seems like they were so focused on the vision of results that they neglected to control for proper storage of the powder. Would be nice if the repeated the study, used airtight containers made from non porous/breathable material, and see if they get similar results.

Quote:

McDominator said:
And I'm definitely all for using powder. If I ever do a grow in the future I will probably make chocolates out of the whole batch :grin:





Sounds like a pleasant way to dose. I chewed some dry mushrooms the other day and it reminded me how nasty they are :hehehe: I've been gulping them down with tea up until now.

Quote:

McDominator said:
Good to hear from you my friend!




You too! Hope all is well, shoot me a message about how things have been if you'd like! :cheers:


--------------------


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OfflineMcDominator
Male


Registered: 08/29/19
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Someone help me tear through this new study [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #27071554 - 12/04/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
You too! Hope all is well, shoot me a message about how things have been if you'd like! :cheers:




I will be writing up a trip report soon. I didn't really know what to make of it but I'm hoping my therapist can unravel it for me. It was odd, literally felt like I was living in a computer simulation.


--------------------
I'm here to learn. I'm also willing to help. If I'm wrong on something, please call me out. I am not resistant to new information, but I always carry a healthy dose of skepticism.


“It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”

-Albert Einstein


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