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OfflineTiberjuggaligger
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Registered: 08/19/17
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Loc: USA
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27059869 - 11/27/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
Besides the principal of the whole thing, the violation of privacy, the erosion of freedom...its legitimate patients who end up suffering because of it, as at best all this does is push more addicts to the black market and towards heroin/fentanyl, while people suffer because they are under-prescribed and under treated.






Thats the prison industrial complex working for its own best interests. They can't keep the prisons full and people on paper, paying into the system forever, if people have a prescription to shield them from persecution. Let's also not forget that felons have no voting rights.

Gotta catch them all!


--------------------


Kirk: What does God need with a starship?
McCoy: Jim, what are you doing?
Kirk: I'm asking a question.
"God": Who is this creature?
Kirk: Who am I? Don't you know? Aren't you God?
Sybok: He has his doubts.
"God": You doubt me?
Kirk: I seek proof.
McCoy: Jim! You don't ask the Almighty for his ID


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Registered: 01/06/19
Posts: 1,553
Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Tiberjuggaligger]
    #27061139 - 11/28/20 06:31 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Don't I know it, I really can't understand how we started down the path of for profit prisons. You would think any reasonable person could see the insanity of creating an entire industry motivated to keep as many people possible locked up as for as long as possible...whose profit margin is also directly hampered by the services that are needed to prevent recidivism.

I mean, it's such an obviously wrong headed policy that I would think even the most die hard believers in privatization of government services would see how vile and corrupting it would be.

Some things just shouldn't be profited from. And what's worse is there is plenty of data demonstrating that for profit prisons aren't any cheaper per prisoner, and in the long run are more expensive because of higher rates of recidivism, yet now the monsters too big to be put back in the closet.

I swear the GOP has become a cult, privatization is their god, and they won't be happy until they've completely destroyed the administrative state and all the power that belongs to the people is in the hands of corporations completely free from accountability by the voters and our representatives.

Quote:

"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt




Edited by Holybullshit (11/28/20 07:39 AM)


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OfflineFractal420
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Registered: 06/21/13
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Tiberjuggaligger]
    #27061143 - 11/28/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

This is what caused the opioid epidemic, and now the emerging benzo epidemic (I bet every city is filled with fucking fake bars with flubromazolam...) 19yos all taking “sticks” now but have never tried alprazolam. And paying like 10 bucks for a press. They call em Hulks now lol. If you asked me what a “hulk press” was I’d say it was most definitely a roll With the Hulk on it.

Chatting with some of these people -even the vendors- it is apparent they know nothing about about drugs really. The whole research erowid thing before trying something is so rare now. Just a bunch of people frying themselves on PCP/PCE analogs and roofie analogs (flu-xxx). There’s luckily still the L and MD scene and cannabis and that’s like all that’s left of safe drugs it seems? Besides plants

But holy shit these people using clam and flu-benzos at insane doses, it is inevitable that this will be picked up by media (def has started to as confiscated bars show the police what’s going on, and I asked to see a press, it was TINY and the wrong color, no way it could pass for real. But they  still add the generic pill ID? Lol.

I’d actually be more okay with this if every print just said “rc benzo” lol. (Or even say “CLAM” or “FLAP”) Honesty goes a long way, really

WTF happened to harm reduction? Esp at a time when street drugs are pretty fucking dangerous. How do people not care that they are frying their brain daily with NMDA antagonists? I understand addiction but a lot of these people are not addicted to the benzos (yet), and a lot of them are like 19-21. Vendors even have to apparently send on credit sometimes so a customer doesn’t WD and it comes back to them


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



Edited by Fractal420 (11/28/20 06:47 AM)


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Fractal420]
    #27061152 - 11/28/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

would allow the DEA to track patients by their “Number of Opiate and Buprenorphine combinations.”




If you are prescribed Bupe, and a dentist gives you some Tylenol with codeine, they will already not fill it. I mean how much further can you crack down on opioids? It’s already the case that if you get bupe you won’t get any others. It SEEMS like they wanna Specifically track down people on bupe or methadone who also get opioids, and sell one or the other (bupe is really expensive esp in its patented forms). And people who get methadone do commonly sell it for dope. Still sucks due to increased surveillance but shit it’s already like every script you get is scrutinized

Like I said above, it’s causing an entire benzo epidemic on top of opioids, for the same damn reason. No real oxy? China will send fent. No real Xanax? How bout some pressed flubro, marked as “Xanax”

ALSO my insurance doesn’t cover shit, so I have to pay in cash for things like adderall. So yes, it’s fucked in the surveillance sense too.


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineFractal420
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Fractal420]
    #27061156 - 11/28/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.workers.org/2020/11/52635/

This is all about bupe and tracking patients. It’s really fucked up. These are people trying to fucking quit. DEA is way out of bounds here



--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineskOsH
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Registered: 07/03/19
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Tiberjuggaligger]
    #27061370 - 11/28/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tiberjuggaligger said:
Quote:

Holybullshit said:
Besides the principal of the whole thing, the violation of privacy, the erosion of freedom...its legitimate patients who end up suffering because of it, as at best all this does is push more addicts to the black market and towards heroin/fentanyl, while people suffer because they are under-prescribed and under treated.






Thats the prison industrial complex working for its own best interests. They can't keep the prisons full and people on paper, paying into the system forever, if people have a prescription to shield them from persecution. Let's also not forget that felons have no voting rights.

Gotta catch them all!




I have an odd theory but it feels like it is true...

I feel like the cia are the ones importing 99% of everything, and the dea do the money laundering and are bought by the cartels to make it seem like they're doing something....but they are meant to catch "big deals", even though they're in on it.

Either that or it's strictly the same thing as it was back in 1984 with crack cocaine...meaning, nothing has changed...

But they have a system, I am 100% positive on that. The gov knows what it is doing, and I bet they collaborate with whomever to get the highest payout.

We never see the dea making a bust of 1 tonne or more, ever

Yet 500 tonnes of cocaine and 500 tonnes of heroin make it into the U.S. every year (that is like, 2005 data btw, I am sure it is higher now)

And with the war in Afghanistan and the war of control of the opium fields there, I think it all comes full circle with this suboxone crackdown.

Basically put, I'm pretty sure the DEA wants to force users off of suboxone, and then they've just created tons of "criminals" who are forced to buy off the black market, whom they can then arrest and throw in jail, and this thing going on right now, is them wanting more of our data...

...our medical data, no less, and it's not even important medical data.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: skOsH]
    #27062559 - 11/29/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I believe in cognitive liberty, but don't literally know any users with enough self control.

If all the common drugs of addiction were cheap and over the counter -- lets' say, free -- misuse would come with a death penalty, built in.

What is an enlightened way of dealing with this?


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Registered: 12/28/10
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: durian_2008]
    #27062575 - 11/29/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Legalize all drugs. Require an education course for each drug class, including alcohol, in order to obtain a license to use/purchase it legally. Use the billions saved from not fighting a war on drugs to offer effective and thorough drug education in schools, and easy access to addiction services that are actually useful and not dictated by insurance reimbursment.


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Invisiblech0ppie
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Registered: 11/18/20
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: feevers]
    #27062909 - 11/29/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)



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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Registered: 01/06/19
Posts: 1,553
Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: durian_2008]
    #27063036 - 11/29/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I believe in cognitive liberty, but don't literally know any users with enough self control.

If all the common drugs of addiction were cheap and over the counter -- lets' say, free -- misuse would come with a death penalty, built in.

What is an enlightened way of dealing with this?




90% of people who experiment with said drugs do not go on to become addicted. This isn't me making up hypothetical numbers, that's what the research says.

There are also other countries which have tried, or still have, diacetylmorphine maintenance programs where patients can basically go up as high as they want and have found that there is a dose where they plateau of their own free will.

There was a time in american history where cocaine and heroin were freely available OTC, and there were people that struggled with addiction(and treatment should be made available) but it wasn't like everyone suddenly abandoned their lives to live in the gutter or were dying left and right.

Personally, I'd just like to see them decriminalized. But if you did want to legalize and regulate, and felt compelled to regulate in a manner to limit habitual use, there is no perfect solution but quotas limiting how much one could purchase would be a start. Maybe rapid drug testing, where you can't purchase it if you are already testing positive.

But I think you'd be better off using the resources it would take to enforce such efforts to instead educate people about responsible use and treating those who do become addicted.

And think about, most of the ODs we are seeing in the opioid epidemic are either accidental, and would not occur if they were recieving a known dose of a  pure drug, or suicide brought on by the crushing weight of trying to support their habit(which is a full time fucking job, believe me), the shame of their addiction, or inability to cope with WD. All things that could be solved with legalization and education.


Edited by Holybullshit (11/29/20 02:06 PM)


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27063978 - 11/30/20 04:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I somehow feel like this won’t happen, because it’s pretty damn evil and overreaching

Or I Hope at least. Cause shit pharmacy data is already scrutinized like hell. What do they wanna do, be the NSA equivalent when it comes to drugs? Xkeyscore?

There are ALREADY no real benzos on the streets for example, not from pharmacies. No opis. Not many people abuse* adderall and whatever. Bupe is Not an issue. And this would affect the whole medical industry. I don’t think anyone wants this, including doctors, including big pharma, etc

They already made it hard enough to get Any controlled drug (All classes) if ur doc And pharmacy isn’t 100% willing

This becomes more than a privacy/quality of life thing, it becomes fucking true surveillance and punishment for getting a controlled sub


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



Edited by Fractal420 (11/30/20 04:57 AM)


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Fractal420]
    #27064028 - 11/30/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know...I would hope the incoming administration would squash it, but I'm just not sure there is a powerful enough coalition pushing back on this when it could be seen as a way of scoring points both with the law & order crowd and those looking for action on the opioid epidemic.

You are probably right, at least I hope you are. But I don't know if progressives would spend political capitol pushing back on this, centrists and conservatives I am sure love it, which would leave pressure from the rand paul types as the only ones against it. Just have to hope common sense wins the day.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27065880 - 12/01/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Don’t forget, Obama did wayyy more banning of substances than say Trump, for what it’s worth. In fact, trump never banned anything I don’t think? Maybe flavored vape juice?

But Obama and his admin banned All 8 Available 2c-x, methylone (along with mephedrone and all caths) and all the K2spice compounds. MDPV, I could go on. But because of these bans the rc industry is much more sketchy lately

Not too different than just straight china black market. Used to be like connoisseur 2c and 4ho shops. If something was too addictive, they usually wouldn’t offer it

Now the super potent opis and benzos, and PCX analogs are being used very commonly. Not so much the psychs. But PCX is usually a daily thing it seems :shrug:


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Fractal420]
    #27065901 - 12/01/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Obama was as centrist as they come, he knew how to whoo liberals with powerful speeches but he governed, almost strictly, as a centrist. You could say Obama was our best conservative President since Bill Clinton.

And those bans didn't begin with Obama, its not like he woke up and said I am going to ban some drugs today, they started with the DEA, Obama's only real involvement was not stopping the bans, and why would he? I highly doubt he even had any role in the review of those decisions. And they were made permanent by Congress and the Synthetic Drug Abuse Prevention Act which was part of the FDA Safety and Innovation Act of 2012...passed by a Congress controlled by the GOP, though it was largely passed by bipartisan vote the FDASIA itself wasn't controversial and outside the SDAPA had little to do with the drug war.

Can you name many/any substances that the DEA temporarily scheduled that the Trump administration overturned? How about a Congressional bill scheduling new drugs that Trump vetoed?

The only difference between Trump and Obama in that regard is one happened to be president under a wave of bannings in response to the burgeoning RC market.

People seem to have this idea that the President is a King, and that they are both responsible for everything that happens during their time in office AND has the ability to stop anything that happens during that time. While the executive branch has become more powerful than the Constitution should have ever allowed, Congress is the ultimate power of the land. And the executive branch is a sprawling bureaucracy, populated with not only career civil servants but with fingerprints from past administrations left on every facet. Even if in theory the President can intervene in most actions originating from executive branch institutions, in reality they operate pretty independently from the White House on most matters, the most influence a President exerts is from his appointees, but even they don't get to steer said organizations as an extension of themselves.

We'd be a lot better of as a democracy if people would correctly attribute the actions of our government to the responsible parties, and then lobbied/campaigned against them directly, instead of defaulting to the current President.

This is one of the reasons why nothing changes in our government, the common layperson thinks the entire government changes every time a new President is voted in. Just like how Congress always has horrible approval ratings, even though Reps/Senators are generally liked(often loved) by their own constituents...even though they vote in blocks 95% of the time.

-----------------

But I do wonder to what degree the current RC market can be directly contributed to those bans. In my mind their largest effect was to take RCs out of smoke shops and make clearnet RC companies stop shipping to the US...its not like the "sketchy" compounds you are referencing are being widely sold legally and openly in the US, like bath salts were.

For anyone already selling RCs outside the scope of the law, such as on the darknet, I can't really see that the items US legality is their main concern. After all, almost all the compounds you referenced above are still readily available on the darknet, they just aren't top sellers anymore.

I know there was a period where more obscure analogs were introduced in an attempt to skirt the law, and that mostly applied to cannabinoids and cathinones, outside of those changes in UK/international policy were just as, if not more, responsible as anything happening in the US, and that period has been over for a a while now.

Suppliers seeking a competitive advantage by introducing novel/more abuse-able compounds have been the main driver of that trend and its got nothing to do with methylone and 2c's being banned.

Bans that occured during the Obama administration have almost nothing to do with benzo/dissociative RC's and it wasn't until recently, due to pressure from the Trump administration, that China got serious about banning and enforcement of fentalogues. That's just the market responding to what people want, drugs that appeal to a wider audience, and more importantly drugs that can be abused chronically if not on a daily basis, are always going to be in higher demand...especially as the number of darknet users grows and its composition becomes more reflective of the general population. While on the supply side LEO efforts push out those less motivated by profit and without ties to organized crime.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the premise that banning NPS's is a game of whack-a-mole and over time will lead to the distribution of more toxic and dangerous compounds...I just think you are giving the SDAPA and DEA more credit for the current make up of the RC market than they deserve.


Edited by Holybullshit (12/01/20 09:55 AM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: DEA Pursues Vast Expansion of Patient Surveillance [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27066186 - 12/01/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I don't believe that taxing and regulating drugs will keep petty dictators in-check or will help those unfortunates, hellbent on self-destruction.

Forcing bums into halfway houses is basically a means of laundering subsidies and in-sourcing sweatshop laborers -- until they escape into the nearest, open field or boxcar.


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