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Offlinekoods
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068008 - 12/02/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
But steps were skipped in clinical trials.
Anybody who says different is lying.

Standard until these new vaccines was 1 year or longer for phase 3 alone.
Phase 3 was not started before phase 2 was over and data analysed.
Same thing with phase 2 was not started before phase 1 was over and data analysed.

Phase 3 duration was 1 year, usually longer to screen the long term side-effects and to ensure that the vaccine is efficient.

As first of these new vaccines was injected to human in march of this year can somebody please explain to me how this is not skipping corners to get the vaccine deal?

Some body please quote this and answer?

https://www.sciencealert.com/us-begins-first-human-trial-of-coronavirus-vaccine

https://www.onlymyhealth.com/first-human-trial-vaccine-of-coronavirus-has-started-in-the-us-1584440383




Yes its fast. If you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic 🤦‍♂️


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Registered: 12/28/10
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068018 - 12/02/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Just because a vaccine was rushed doesn't mean it was hastily created/studied. In terms of long-term side effects, yea, we don't know what those are, it's entirely possible and even likely there are none. We do know that COVID has many long-term consequences, and without a vaccine everyone will be at risk for those. Even a vaccine that you test safety for a year... okay, what if the long-term side effects don't appear until year 5? With enough knowledge of the mechanism of action of the vaccine and what has happened in similar vaccines, combined with the fairly large sample it's already been tested on, they can reasonably evaluate its safety. The fact that it was largely not tested on those with high risk-factors isn't ideal, but it can be reasonably assumed that like other vaccines the results will transfer over well to those at higher risk, but yeah that's something that needs to be addressed. Honestly right now it's obvious that the priorities are ensuring safety and then getting it on the market ASAP, and having a more inclusive study would slow that. It's far from perfect but it's what we got when facing a pandemic.

As far as people not wanting to get the vaccine, I can definitely sympathize with people who don't want to. Honestly the symptoms from the vaccine might be worse that actually having COVID for a lot of people, though some think that those who would be asymptomatic for COVID will also not have the cold/achy symptoms that can come from the vaccine. Many people haven't experienced the virus first hand and don't recognize how their taking the vaccine is not only going to be statistically very beneficial to them from a health/risk perspective, but also helps society get rolling again.

The argument of letting your immune system naturally fight things off and build immunity is valid, but viruses don't behave predictably. There is no guarantee that even the healthiest immune system will fight off COVID. The vaccine is essentially injecting you with a script that causes cells in your body to create a part of a unique COVID protein. Once your cells identify that intruder protein piece and mount an immune response, it builds a memory for how to eradicate it and you develop t-cells and antibodies. When you're exposed to COVID, the body will leap on that protein as soon as it recognizes it and dismantle the viruses ability to take hold with relative ease. It's basically just hacking your immune system so you don't experience that period between infection and immune response while your body has to basically figure out what the virus is and how to get rid of it... that period is where the virus is replicating and spreading throughout your body so it's critical in terms of outcome.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: koods] * 2
    #27068029 - 12/02/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Only step skipped is the long term effect studies which usually run 3-5 years.  We don't have that luxury to run the those extended safety trials.  Yes, trials where run concurrently to some degree after immediate safety was established in phase 1 so that they could get to efficacy trials in phase 2, and further drill down into safety and efficacy in phase 3.

If you want things to return to "normal", you will take the vaccine and it's booster when the time comes.  If you are ok with an unchecked pandemic showing exponential growth, by all means skip the vaccine.

It's funny, I always here big pharma only creates palliative medicine so they can keep people on the dole, instead of curing them.  Vaccines, which are de-facto cures, for some reason still get a bad rap even though it's big pharma creating a cure. :elderno:


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


Edited by Ice9 (12/02/20 11:27 AM)


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: koods] * 1
    #27068032 - 12/02/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
Phase 3 duration was 1 year, usually longer to screen the long term side-effects and to ensure that the vaccine is efficient.




Yes its fast. If you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic 🤦‍♂️




Not taking anyone's side, just want to point out one thing:

If there is a standardized procedure on how to perform the phase 3 trials, and that process is shortened due to the pandemic, isn't that the same thing as: we are taking bigger risks because we think the benefit of the vaccine will outweigh those risks.

Your argument "if you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic" thereby seems quite useless.
Again, not saying you are wrong or that the vaccine is bad or anything, just that your argument adds no value...

I guess the point is: if you're gonna facepalm someone, at least have a valid argument to back up that facepalm.
That also helps with making discussions interesting and less polarized.


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Invisiblemetalfaith
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Registered: 03/30/11
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: morrowasted]
    #27068099 - 12/02/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure I have... But I"m a (relatively) healthy 30 Year old.

Two notifications from admin that someone I was in very close contact with had it and we did not know. both were when I was floated to the non-COVID unit and pts were asymptomatic and here for other reasons, so I didn't bother much with my N95.

I have not tested myself at all. For 140$ a pop, I'm not that interested. lol.

I did however pick up scabies last month... That's what you get for trying to bath a nursing home patient. Disgusting.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: metalfaith]
    #27068109 - 12/02/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Shit and shit like that is part of the gig:shrug:

Going back to working with elders with dementia during this month.
Actually like the job.
Most of them are really nice folks.


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Invisiblemetalfaith
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068116 - 12/02/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Oh word! Didn't realize you were in healthcare too. Nice, you a PCA or a nurse or what?

Dementia/alheizmers can be some trippy shit. Daily reinacting the same delusions with some people. Crazy.

As far as scabies.. Listen, I can take the shit on my hands, getting piss all over me, blood all over, getting shit thrown at me, etc. Scabies is some next level shit though. Something about it is disgusting.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: Malkuthian]
    #27068126 - 12/02/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malkuthian said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

LeningradCowboy said:
Phase 3 duration was 1 year, usually longer to screen the long term side-effects and to ensure that the vaccine is efficient.




Yes its fast. If you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic 🤦‍♂️




Not taking anyone's side, just want to point out one thing:

If there is a standardized procedure on how to perform the phase 3 trials, and that process is shortened due to the pandemic, isn't that the same thing as: we are taking bigger risks because we think the benefit of the vaccine will outweigh those risks.

Your argument "if you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic" thereby seems quite useless.
Again, not saying you are wrong or that the vaccine is bad or anything, just that your argument adds no value...

I guess the point is: if you're gonna facepalm someone, at least have a valid argument to back up that facepalm.
That also helps with making discussions interesting and less polarized.



That’s the only valid argument. The vaccine is rushed because it has to be.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068144 - 12/02/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I have degree of addiction- mental health worker, studying now for papers of practical nurse( I think this is the word in english for that). Need those to be able to get funded by government for projects with addicts. Going to do some sifts in local hospital/nursing home for some extra while studying this degree.

Addicts are the field that calls me most. Love working with elders, not saying that. But as ex addict I feel most I have to give is to other addicts. Sometimes feel though that elders would be more easy way to go. I have no problem for taking violence/threats from dementia patient. But some addicts are really frigging impulsive.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068151 - 12/02/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Koodz can you maybe then explain to me why Moderna for example was doing cherry picking when choosing people to trials?

If we are going to shield the elders and people with diabetes,asthma,metabolic syndrome with this would it be wise to test the vaccine with them too?

My logic says YES.


--------------------
From tundra with love!


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: Malkuthian] * 1
    #27068194 - 12/02/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malkuthian said:


If there is a standardized procedure on how to perform the phase 3 trials, and that process is shortened due to the pandemic, isn't that the same thing as: we are taking bigger risks because we think the benefit of the vaccine will outweigh those risks.





There isn't.  While phase 3 studies are "large and well-controlled," they use variety of different endpoints, outcome measures, durations etc.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: badchad]
    #27068207 - 12/02/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oh word! Didn't realize you were in healthcare too. Nice, you a PCA or a nurse or what?



LG is a licensed troll


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068214 - 12/02/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Before this pandemia they were usually 1 year or longer. Research took 5-7 years with new vaccines.

Phases were not run on top of each other but after each other.

And this was done for reason.
I try to find good article for you about this.
And yes it was globally done that way.
In EU vaccine trial protocols were rewritten in july of this year.
Making the new rules/protocols even override national ones.

There is lots of people from that field speaking about this.

Morrowasted you are maybe the most arrogant person on this forum:hi: Keep living in that bubble, someday it is going to burst open.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068227 - 12/02/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

And Koodz and MW:

Do you realize how much like Trump you sound?

"It is the greatest vaccine, The most effective vaccine ever. Even the safest vaccine ever done. We did not test it to the groups it is supposed to shield but we made it at warp speed."

LOL Maga


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From tundra with love!


FREE HAMHEAD 2020!


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 1
    #27068229 - 12/02/20 01:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We'll know a lot more when the adverse event data are released.  The public meeting on Pfizer's vaccine is next week.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineEnkidu
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: badchad]
    #27068334 - 12/02/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

God damnit.

Ill have to come back and read all this shit when i have time

Shit thread blew up


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: koods]
    #27068412 - 12/02/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
That’s the only valid argument. The vaccine is rushed because it has to be.



Again, I'm not claiming anything else.
But it is still reasonable to question what adverse effects the rush of this could have.

-"When something is rushed, is there not a higher risk?"
-"It has to be rushed."


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: Malkuthian]
    #27068423 - 12/02/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Even more when test groups are all healthy with no pre-excisting conditions etc.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: Shiva thedestroyer] * 1
    #27068464 - 12/02/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well you are in luck because myself and millions of other healthcare workers will be getting it soon and we'll definitely let you know if we get paralyzed or whatever


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Why is the covid kill count not passing the natural background deaths in the usa? [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #27068513 - 12/02/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

They will try to make it mandatory all so in my country for health-care sector.

Mandatory vaccine law all ready in Finnish law.
Even more reason for me wanting it to be tested to be safe and effective PROPERLY.

My parents and the elders of family are going to take it.
One more reason.

I smell money on this case, not humanity.

I´m not so much worried about healthy young people getting this as I´m concerned about old folks with diabetes etc.


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