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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27051521 - 11/22/20 07:42 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

truth and trust leads to banking and wealth


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27053236 - 11/23/20 02:06 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

There is a cure to ignorance :wink:, and being ignorant is not a shame, it just means not knowing, and we're all born that way.

Knowing is knowing there's a great probability the Sun will rise the next day.

To doubt that probability is fine, but to deny it is a losing bet.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27053507 - 11/23/20 09:45 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
If Truth can't be known, then everything humans assume about physical science has to also be conceded as a "best guess" with no anchoring in ontological reality.

I'd argue Truth, as best as it can be understood, made useful, and applied to human beings on this level of consciousness, is whatever's left over after contradiction has been eliminated from the equation.

Exactly like sifting for gold.

Sherlock Holmes method. Whatever is left after contradiction has been eliminated, must be Truth regardless of how improbable, unpopular, or unbelievable it may appear to be.




I think truth can be known.  Collectively I think this would refer to the empirical fact the measurables.  The human condition isn’t simply objective like this tho.  And the truth isn’t just measured but expressed and created subjectively.  Scientist/Artist

Artistically contradiction happens and ambiguity is useful.  So I wouldn’t entirely side with your explanation of truth.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27053666 - 11/23/20 11:50 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

anything absolute exceeds our domain. we are relative people in a relative world.
basically we're all related, and that's the absolute truth.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27054906 - 11/24/20 06:14 AM (6 months, 21 days ago)

We're all related but how do you know? Hmmm..

Dem vibin feels? The yodels of a hobo?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #27054960 - 11/24/20 07:57 AM (6 months, 21 days ago)

we give up freedom when we travel but get can usually get free wifi


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27055868 - 11/24/20 07:10 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Do you agree the terms and cond....click.


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Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: pineninja]
    #27056453 - 11/25/20 02:11 AM (6 months, 21 days ago)

....When a person experiences sleep paralysis they feel they have no free will and that it is unpleasant. So when this sort of thing isn't happening, by contrast we say & feel we have free will.
....But as soon as we consider all the biological necessities we are stuck with: eating, shitting, sleeping for a third of our lives, getting old and dying, just for starters it all seems a lot less grand.
....Then there all the difficulties most humans have with others, their jobs, and so on.
....And this is for regular folks, not those in the military, in prison, suffering from poverty, living in a dictatorship, afflicted with a handicap, living in a war zone...and so on.
....Seems other than philosophers, most folks turn to asking God for help, when the shit hits the fan, rather than defiantly climbing onto the rooftops and proclaiming how wonderful their 'free will' is.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27056484 - 11/25/20 02:54 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
If Truth can't be known, then everything humans assume about physical science has to also be conceded as a "best guess" with no anchoring in ontological reality.

I'd argue Truth, as best as it can be understood, made useful, and applied to human beings on this level of consciousness, is whatever's left over after contradiction has been eliminated from the equation.

Exactly like sifting for gold.

Sherlock Holmes method. Whatever is left after contradiction has been eliminated, must be Truth regardless of how improbable, unpopular, or unbelievable it may appear to be.




I think truth can be known.  Collectively I think this would refer to the empirical fact the measurables.  The human condition isn’t simply objective like this tho.  And the truth isn’t just measured but expressed and created subjectively.  Scientist/Artist

Artistically contradiction happens and ambiguity is useful.  So I wouldn’t entirely side with your explanation of truth.




You kind of just did though, lol.

We're not talking about art; that's a given. Subjectivity is king. My argument is people are actually doing the same thing when they think they're doing science, then have the gall to act like they're separating subjectivity and embracing objectivity, and reaching something "You can't have an opinion on because science", while reaching that "empirical view" by piecing together contradictory claims that nullify any and all claims lol.

95% of the time this ist happening, and it's even more embarrassed when physicists do it because they're literally the only people that should be embracing Truth as it's actually known (non-contradiction). They don't. They bullshit and conflate lol.

Physicists and scientists think they're immune to "ideology", and it's the laymen that's trapped in belief systems while they exist empirically outside of it, right?

Too bad the entirety of modern science is a bait and switch materialist philosophy of nature.

That's all it is.

You, I, and everyone else have been conditioned to view it as a multi-tool when it's not even a good tool, it's just a hammer and everything is a nail. If it's not a nail, it can't exist because it would be able to be hammered. Entire swathes of phenomena exist outside modern science's reach because it precludes a large part of reality because it's literally based in contradictory metaphysical premises: that there is an outside separate from the inside, and has full control over the inside, no matter what inside thinks of feels.

It's the other way around.

Past a certain point because it assumes causality is determinative (causing the universe) rather than simply being a description, and not the cause.

Consciousness is the only true cause/effect function. Consciousness is all there is because your entire relationship to the idea of "reality" and "out there" is a FUNCTION OF YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS.

Big difference and this makes a huge impact on your conscious perception of reality and the true power of you consciousness/spirit/soul, etc..

Art is subjective and doesn't require non-contradiction because it's not making claims about the nature of reality. No argument on art, trust me, I'm loose as a goose with my art and I think understanding the former lets you go further with art because you understand "the rules" so you can "break them".

3/4 of modern physics, "Big Bang" cosmology, etc. is packed with insane levels of contradiction to the point where I have to wonder if it was done intentionally to enslave humanity. I wish I were joking. Something coming out of nothing, in an instant, for no reason, is accepted as how and why the material universe "exists".

BULLSHIT.

Here's another contradictory claim everyone accepts: NASA claims to have made it to the moon and back, despite even modern technology not being able to make it through the Van Allen belt. When asked about this, they literally said "We hadn't discovered it yet". Let that bullshit sink in and tell me how large contradictions don't form the basis of most of the public's perception of space.


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“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.”
-Bill Hicks


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27056602 - 11/25/20 07:39 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

ALL CAPS WARNING

this textpression usually happens when you are up against the wall.
so believe nothing and learn the world anew, maybe loosen up and have some mushrooms.


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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27056670 - 11/25/20 09:14 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
We're not talking about art; that's a given. Subjectivity is king. My argument is people are actually doing the same thing when they think they're doing science, then have the gall to act like they're separating subjectivity and embracing objectivity, and reaching something "You can't have an opinion on because science", while reaching that "empirical view" by piecing together contradictory claims that nullify any and all claims lol.





I assume we are talking about the human condition and from that the question on what is truth?

Yet I do not see how the scientist is doing the same thing as the artist.  The scientist observes outside his body and then describes.  The artist feels himself subjectively and then expresses or fashions (more or less).  I note your assertion that everything is a function of YOUR consciousness.  But I don’t see how this puts the scientist and the physical world on par with the artist and his expression.  You do not concede that there is an exterior mutually assessable field of reality that is different from a persons subjective condition?
In other words we can both be standing in a room looking at a chair where we might agree on what is in front of us yet can we read each other’s minds?  Inner/outer


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27057334 - 11/25/20 05:56 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
....

3/4 of modern physics, "Big Bang" cosmology, etc. is packed with insane levels of contradiction to the point where I have to wonder if it was done intentionally to enslave humanity. I wish I were joking. Something coming out of nothing, in an instant, for no reason, is accepted as how and why the material universe "exists".

BULLSHIT.

Here's another contradictory claim everyone accepts: NASA claims to have made it to the moon and back, despite even modern technology not being able to make it through the Van Allen belt. When asked about this, they literally said "We hadn't discovered it yet". Let that bullshit sink in and tell me how large contradictions don't form the basis of most of the public's perception of space.




OK I will "tell me how"

You haven't kept up with the news on the subject.

"Space Radiation Devastated the Lives of Apollo Astronauts
New research points to serious concerns about human survival during deep space travel.
By Robin Seemangal • 07/28/16 2:21pm
•    

Apollo 11 (Photo: NASA)
A startling new study has revealed that a troubling number of the lunar astronauts from NASA’s Apollo program are suffering high mortality rates due to heart disease. The cause? Exposure to high levels of deep space radiation during their trip to the Moon."

more at:

https://observer.com/2016/07/space-radiation-devastated-the-lives-of-apollo-astronauts/

of course this has nothing to do with free willlllll...
but so what?

As for the big bang, and dark matter and dark energy -- they are place holder theories, or steps toward a theory only. I doubt Steve Hawking had any evil intentions. And the black hole research seems to be getting some verification. Scientists argue among themselves, they are not selling dogma like religious evangelists. We see that at its worst in North Korea, of which there are a few videos on Youtube. Scientists that are owned I mean hired, by big corporations do produce biased "research results", but that does  not mean all others are in on some evil plot.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27057653 - 11/25/20 09:06 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

meanwhile as regards free will:

Christopher Hitchens — 'Yes I have free will; I have no choice but to have it.'

or

"Of course we have free will because we have no choice but to have it."

Christopher Hitchens


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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27058546 - 11/26/20 01:06 PM (6 months, 19 days ago)

@free will

I think you are a self fulfilling prophecy.  The question is followed by the prophecy.  But I guess one could not entertain the question in the first place where the concept doesn’t exist for them.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27064008 - 11/30/20 07:40 AM (6 months, 15 days ago)

.  People want both certainty and absolutes, so they come up with dumb questions, ignore paradoxes, and decide to form beliefs they pretend to be open minded about, so well that their rationalizations fool themselves, and then ( they) call the result 'having free will', 'truth', or 'spirituality'. It may be best to humor such crazy or silly people, depending on how you choose to classify them.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27064056 - 11/30/20 09:04 AM (6 months, 15 days ago)

The question regarding free will is simply a semantic discussion on the word "free".

Change my mind.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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