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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010036 - 10/29/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this has great information and graphics
https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html?s=08



there is a link to an excel sheet that can be downloaded and adjusted for size of space, windows, number of people, rate of air change, quality of masks etc.  Pretty good, and several models provided that work right away. (actually it takes time to figure it out)...
it is pretty interesting


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27061228 - 11/28/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

https://web.archive.org/web/20201126223119/https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

Here's an interesting article from JHU on the death rate of covid. It was pulled shortly after being published but luckily it was archived.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27061235 - 11/28/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

In other news...

“There is absolutely no need for vaccines to extinguish the pandemic. You do not vaccinate people who aren’t at risk from the disease. You also don’t set about planning to vaccinate millions of fit and healthy people with a vaccine that hasn’t been extensively tested on human subjects.” - Michael Yeadon, former vice president and Chief Scientist of Pfizer Pharmaceutical.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27061355 - 11/28/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
In other news...

“There is absolutely no need for vaccines to extinguish the pandemic. You do not vaccinate people who aren’t at risk from the disease. You also don’t set about planning to vaccinate millions of fit and healthy people with a vaccine that hasn’t been extensively tested on human subjects.” - Michael Yeadon, former vice president and Chief Scientist of Pfizer Pharmaceutical.



this was published by RIGHT WING political publications.
I highly doubt the rationality of it, and question your motivation for repeating it.

not a good thing to repeat.

i.e. FAKE NEWS!

use https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ to verify the alignment of your sources, and consider what ex-vp might mean:  eg. old and cannot think straight - so fired, retired and probable dementia, capitalist manipulator, Trumpist collaborator. etc.

anyway, we should look to epidemiologists for relevant information in this matter, science becomes fairly specialized and a pharmaceutical chemist may be very disconnected from medical epidemiology.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27061379 - 11/28/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Okay, so he was just a chief scientist for a major vaccine company, for what it's worth. And it is fake news because you think he is demented? Or because it was reported by a website you "disagree with", whatever that means?

And is the link I posted just before also fake news? A nefarious twisting of data to make it seem like there aren't extra people dying?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27061663 - 11/28/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

think about it.

why would this type of statement be pushed out into the web?

also separately consider how much science goes into creating pharmaceuticals (organic chemistry, some microbiology, informatics, chemical engineering), and consider how different this field is from the study of infectious disease.

I know you can handle it because you have done exemplary analysis of n-95 masks.

Herd management is much harder when you feed the masses doubt about official decision making, and that is what you are being caught up with.

I did not read or maybe just don't remember your other post about deaths, but I go through this every day with my wife who is not university educated.

good luck working it out, Rahz.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27061816 - 11/28/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
why would this type of statement be pushed out into the web?





You want to tell me the answer you have in mind? And I find the rest of your post patronizing. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27061843 - 11/28/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Let me expound on that comment.

>>>>think about it.

I am/have been. It's just not what you think I should think. We disagree. Accept that and debate in good faith.

>>>>also separately consider how much science goes into creating pharmaceuticals (organic chemistry, some microbiology, informatics, chemical engineering), and consider how different this field is from the study of infectious disease.

So therefore you're suggesting his opinion is worthless and without merit, or demented, or a Trump supporter, or it's gotta be something because you disagree with his statement.

>>>>I know you can handle it because you have done exemplary analysis of n-95 masks.

There's no point in flattering me, just make your point.

>>>>Herd management is much harder when you feed the masses doubt about official decision making, and that is what you are being caught up with.

So you're suggesting that because the decision making you support is "official" anything contradictory is just making life harder and wrong because it's not "official". This goes back to the whole idea of "settled science" which is a dumb idea, especially in debate.

>>>>I did not read or maybe just don't remember your other post about deaths, but I go through this every day with my wife who is not university educated.

So you do not know what I'm talking about, therefore you do not know what you are talking about.

For someone university educated (appeal to authority) you sure do a bad job at basic communication skills when there is disagreement. I would ask why that is but it would be personal.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27062012 - 11/28/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I am learning a lot about how people (including myself) act when there is mood variance. I do not think you want an apology - nor do I.

also I am glad you are suspicious about me and my motives, and hope you can turn that back on the source of that published information.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27062207 - 11/28/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No I don't want an apology nor am I upset, but for the life of me I can't understand why someone with your credentials, who has been on a debate forum for +10 years doesn't grok the basics of debate fallacy. Just because you don't like a source doesn't mean all information coming from it is incorrect. That seems to be the basis of your argument.

It is a bit frustrating that you being the primary devils advocate in this thread consistently fail to examine the links I provide with summary, yet still feel the need to comment on them.

You say good luck working it out, but do not care to debate in the thread you are participating in. It comes off as a condescension. I don't need apologies, but I would like some real debate on the subject. The link I provided was from a published article at John Hopkins. Is that publication on your list? I suspect it was pulled because it doesn't reflect the official narrative and makes herd management more difficult. But that doesn't speak to the veracity of the information provided which hopefully is what we try to get at here. Suggesting it does is illogical and poor deductive reasoning.

Regarding the quote from Michael Yeadon, it doesn't support the official narrative so of course it's only going to be published in places you don't like. You don't even need to check to see if it's on your list, because you already know it's on your list. This type of censorship without discussion is not healthy over the long run for society, and I don't believe it's healthy when it comes to the covid response.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27062423 - 11/29/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

LOL
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
eg. old and cannot think straight - so fired, retired and probable dementia, capitalist manipulator,...




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #27062482 - 11/29/20 07:07 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

It is good that you are keeping my debate reflexes tested.

I am not sure how to deal with the problem of disqualifying fake news, bad science, and wrong health advice, but I can tell when something is coming at me that means to disrupt what is already difficult to maintain, namely not catching Covid, and not spreading Covid.

"where is that story-line now?", "who is promoting it?" and "why?" are the only questions I have at this time. This may not be philosophy but it is a strange time in politics and that still seems to allow any kind of alternate truths.

from a web search for "ex-pfizer vp claim"
Quote:

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/health/ex-pfizer-vice-presidents-claim-covid-is-effectively-over-termed-false  In the article published in Lockdown Sceptics, Yeadon made claims about a large section of the population having prior immunity against the disease.

"I believe I have provided more than adequate evidence that a significant proportion (30%) of the population went into 2020 armed with T-cells capable of defending them against SAR-CoV-2, even though they had never seen the virus," Yeadon wrote.

"This is because they'd been previously infected by one of more common cold-producing coronaviruses. SAGE was naively wrong to assume 'everyone was susceptible'," he wrote.

Health Feedback said that "the implications for immunity are still unknown."

"Although scientific studies found that some people who never had COVID-19 have a certain type of immune cell (memory T cell) that can recognize SARS-CoV-2, the implications for immunity are still unknown," the nonprofit fact-checker said.




so, some people do have some relative immunity, but the population at large is susceptible - the hospitals are currently overloaded, and numbers are rising.
the crisis is real regardless of the ideas in the ex-VP of Pfizer.


Edited by redgreenvines (11/29/20 11:36 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27063494 - 11/29/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

the crisis is real regardless of the ideas in the ex-VP of Pfizer.




Over 62 million global cases

Over 13 million USA cases

Approaching 1.5 Million global deaths

Over 250 thousand deaths in the USA

Seems pretty real

COVID-19 Dashboard by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1IP5HwHN76r3aDtsAkAZEQGc6INGCs_iVXv2_In4K0d87olzJCcp8LXEk#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
------------------------------------------

& among those it doesn't kill, in another subset of cases, months or years of shit,  Seems pretty real:

"Top 15 reported long-hauler symptoms

    anxiety
    body aches or muscle or joint pain
    brain fog, difficulty concentrating, or memory challenges
    chest tightness, pressure, or pain
    chills or sweats
    cough
    dizziness
    diarrhea
    elevated temperature
    fatigue
    headache
    heart palpitations/tachycardia
    inability to exercise
    insomnia
    shortness of breath or difficulty breathing"

https://greatist.com/health/covid-long-haulers-symptoms#long-term-symptoms

and / or

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=symmptoms+of+covid%2C+long+haulers&t=h_&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (11/29/20 06:34 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #27063527 - 11/29/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Really serious consequences  -- over 60,000 affected in the UK alone

COVID long haulers update,  Dr. John Campbell,  816K subscribers



Edited by laughingdog (11/29/20 06:32 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #27063547 - 11/29/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Did you read the John Hopkins article?

"Surprisingly, the deaths of older people stayed the same before and after COVID-19. Since COVID-19 mainly affects the elderly, experts expected an increase in the percentage of deaths in older age groups. However, this increase is not seen from the CDC data. In fact, the percentages of deaths among all age groups remain relatively the same.

“The reason we have a higher number of reported COVID-19 deaths among older individuals than younger individuals is simply because every day in the U.S. older individuals die in higher numbers than younger individuals,” Briand said.

Briand also noted that 50,000 to 70,000 deaths are seen both before and after COVID-19, indicating that this number of deaths was normal long before COVID-19 emerged. Therefore, according to Briand, not only has COVID-19 had no effect on the percentage of deaths of older people, but it has also not increased the total number of deaths.

These data analyses suggest that in contrast to most people’s assumptions, the number of deaths by COVID-19 is not alarming. In fact, it has relatively no effect on deaths in the United States."


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27063573 - 11/29/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You wear a more effective mask than most people yet, you try and convince (yourself ? ) that nothing bad is going on world wide.

Seems like a contradiction, within yourself.

...By the speed of your response I doubt you considered the info. about the long haulers, which is ok by me, but it does seem to indicate that you want to defend a position.
...We know from politics in the USA that there is little point in arguing with peoples' beliefs. It seems you may have gone into the end of the spectrum where defending a position, is of more interest...
I wonder how you will resolve your 2 tendencies, the one that wears a superior mask vs. the other one.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #27063687 - 11/29/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I was responding to your first post with what seems to be relevant information, yet you failed to address it. Yes it's a real disease and some people are suffering long term effects. But per the title of this thread, the response must be measured against the disease. We're also dealing with millions of job losses, millions being pushed into poverty, undernourishment, government dependency, loss of schooling in formative years, higher alcohol consumption and drug abuse to treat anxiety and the higher rates of depression and isolation. The rich and middle class who work from home are to some degree fine nodding their heads at the official story as long as they haven't lost their job, but all that will take a toll and add up to lots of death. There's no real proof that stringing out the pandemic with isolation and/or face covers lowers the death toll, and some indicators that the virus isn't actually killing in the numbers the officials are telling us it is.

And if I have to wear a mask in public I'm going to wear something that works. Not a "face cover" that is fairly useless. Widespread use of cloth masks and the daily transmission rates are officially at least six time higher than in the first wave. It's a joke. And yes, it feels ridiculous. Something bad is going on worldwide, but it's the cure!

I feel like an atheist in the inquisition. And those who say going against the official story is wrong are the clerics, safe in their compliance to the church and saving souls by killing them.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27063728 - 11/29/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I got a date with a giant praying mantis, so if I make it back here, I'll catch up with this whole dialog


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27063736 - 11/29/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Glad we've confirmed that Rahz is the devil incarnate, next!


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Rahz]
    #27063756 - 11/29/20 09:49 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
...There's no real proof that stringing out the pandemic with isolation and/or face covers lowers the death toll, and some indicators that the virus isn't actually killing in the numbers the officials are telling us it is.

And if I have to wear a mask in public I'm going to wear something that works. Not a "face cover" that is fairly useless. Widespread use of cloth masks and the daily transmission rates are officially at least six time higher than in the first wave. It's a joke. And yes, it feels ridiculous. Something bad is going on worldwide, but it's the cure!

I feel like an atheist in the inquisition. And those who say going against the official story is wrong are the clerics, safe in their compliance to the church and saving souls by killing them.




1)Seems the waves follow easing restrictions and reimposing restrictions helps. We saw this in Australia for example, as well as elsewhere.

2) "Face covers" / masks are used in hospitals, because good ones do work. I know folks that are intelligent, that wear cloth masks over beards. I say nothing to them. It would only make enemies and they wouldn't listen anyway. That's the way the world is.

.  (Incidentally long term I think covid is irrelevant as long as Global Warming, the current major extinction, rainforest destruction, ocean acidification, over fishing, factory farming **, pollution, over population, & urbanization all continue, with GW being the main driver). Some of these things sound trivial if one doesn't know a bit of the back story, but none of them are trivial and taken together they are not solvable IMO. Many areas of the world are already unlivable due to human interventions; Not just the areas where we know of refuge problems.
.  Given this and my age, it would make no sense to allow any of these things to cause continual emotional upset.
.  I expect disaster (& economic disaster which seems to worry you) to over take the whole planet, as far as the quality of human life is concerned. So I'm not subscribing to any "official line of Politically correct thought", as far as I can tell. This is not a unique view, but also not a popular one.
.  More viral/epidemics/pandemics are to be expected, as long as, the Chinese Wet Markets stay open, factory farming continues, and bush meat is used by those who destroy the rain forests.
.  So I do not cling to hope for the human world, in any shape or form. All empires fall. And interconnected ones fall together. And today for practical purposes (trade, technology, resources, finance) all nations are interconnected regardless of having different names and cultural preferences. In fact the spread of covid is an example of such interconnection, as is the largely ignored but continuous cyber-warfare and hacking and spying.

.  Meanwhile -- re factory farming -- the latest example:

no end to human folly

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mink+farms%2C+covid%2C+denmark%2C+oregon&t=h_&ia=web

6 countries reported coronavirus on mink farms, WHO says

https://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/world/763190/6-countries-reported-coronavirus-on-mink-farms-who-says/story/


.  If you like history you might find this interesting as regards empires.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jared+diamond+collapse

or this



Edited by laughingdog (11/29/20 10:42 PM)


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