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OfflineUcucu
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Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong?
    #27059278 - 11/26/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So this is the third tub i get infected with trich, and I don't know where the problem is. I pasteurized the grain spawn in quart jars in a pressure cooker, inoculation was perfect, and when I opened the jars there was no visual sign of infection and they smelled like heaven all the way through. I mixed the spawn with coco coir/verm substrate and that grew very quickly, then I cased it with another layer of coir/verm, and although it started growing well at first, then it stalled after 3-4 days. And today I found this little green patch:



I have removed it and the underlying mix seemed healthy:



So first things first: applying salt or hydrogen peroxide to the "wound" would help? I'm reading conflicting reports.

Second: I think that up till the grain was fully colonized I did everything right. I'm suspecting that the coir is infected (and pouring boiling water over it doesn't do the trick, and I should sterilize it with a PC - are there any good guides for this?), because problems started to appear after casing; before casing it was all going picture perfect. I also think I shouldn't case as that gives trich more opportunity to grow, no? I also think my humidity might be a bit high and that is not helpful (the lid and sides of my tub were filled with little droplets of water, as was the mycelium. Is there anything else I should be considering? This is becoming really frustrating. Thanks.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27059283 - 11/26/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Toss don't do surgery or pour peroxide or salt on your tub. It's done.

You can hydrate coir with room temperature tap water.


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Onlinenormalperson
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27059322 - 11/26/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

" pasteurized the grain spawn".....what exactly did you do to your grain?


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: normalperson]
    #27059673 - 11/27/20 06:31 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

normalperson said:
" pasteurized the grain spawn".....what exactly did you do to your grain?




Soaked the rye for 12-16 hours, pressure cooked it for a couple of hours in quart jars, inoculated with a syringe via the SHIPs in the lids (in a SAB), let it grow over 5 weeks, then mixed it with the coir/verm substrate in the tub.


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OfflineTattersail
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27059676 - 11/27/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Aww man that sucks. What was in your syringe, was it a spore syringe or a liquid culture? If the former then that might be where the issues came from. Do you have any pics of the jars before you spawned them?


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Tattersail]
    #27059718 - 11/27/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Trich before first flush is nearly entirely due to dirty spawn.
Are you sure your what your sniffer is sniffing is the proper thing to sniff? Any faint scent of earthy dirt, even slight will let you know if you've got trich.

If you're using spore syringes stop. Grow it out on agar first, transfer until clean. Expand to LC or drop clean agar on grain.
If you're using LC, test it on agar to check if it is clean.
If you're using LC and it tests clean assess your sterile technique for inoculation.
If your technique is good then assess your jars I suppose. What are you using for a filter material?


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Tattersail]
    #27059996 - 11/27/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tattersail said:
Aww man that sucks. What was in your syringe, was it a spore syringe or a liquid culture? If the former then that might be where the issues came from. Do you have any pics of the jars before you spawned them?




It was liquid culture I got from agar I grew. Both were clean, to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunately I don't have pics of the jars. I used rye berries, and they grew pretty well and evenly, they were 98% colonized before 5 weeks were up, and that's when I mixed them with the coir.

Quote:

starbones said:
Are you sure your what your sniffer is sniffing is the proper thing to sniff? Any faint scent of earthy dirt, even slight will let you know if you've got trich.

If you're using spore syringes stop. Grow it out on agar first, transfer until clean. Expand to LC or drop clean agar on grain.
If you're using LC, test it on agar to check if it is clean.
If you're using LC and it tests clean assess your sterile technique for inoculation.
If your technique is good then assess your jars I suppose. What are you using for a filter material?




To the best of my smelling abilities it was clean. I scooped out every jar with a spoon and it all smelled good.

I use polyfill for my jars.



Edited by Ucucu (11/27/20 11:06 AM)


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27060018 - 11/27/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The thing I never liked about people saying they scoop grain with a spoon, including TCs that do it is what about cross contamination?
Scoop one shitty jar and carry contaminate mycelium to the next.

I know there's people that probably try to clean the spoons between go rounds but most people seem to ignore that half their cleaning products that exhibit antifungal activity need something like ten minute contact times to work.

A couple swift smacks to break up the spawn and it just pours right out. Anything more than that has always indicated spawns gone bacterial on me when other indicators are absent.

I'd like to point you to something innocuous if you're absolutely sure your spawn jars are clean as can be but trich before first flush is nearly always likely to be within the spawn. I could see it happening if you were using coir designed for hydroponics growing enriched with trich and were not killing molds off by using the bucket tek but eh, feh, bleh. Somethings gone shitty during your spawn run.

Got bugs? lol.


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OfflineProfessor X
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: starbones]
    #27060085 - 11/27/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If you are using Agar inoculate from clean plates then it sounds like you aren't getting your grain sterile. If you are using a presto 22-23qt are you using a 15psi weight and letting it rock for at least 1.5 hours? How are you doing transfers? Flow hood or SAB? If all of these check out you may need to clean plates some more. If you are using MS syringe I suggest cleaning on Agar or BRF first and cloning. I've personally done nothing but clones for years. Even from MS I will go to BRF and clone then use purely Agar inoculate although I have dabbled with LC and it is awesome if it is clean.

Oh yeah, never scoop jars with a spoon, that's asking for trouble. Tried that one time and learned my lesson. The less you touch or open etc... The less chances at contamination. Sterile technique is king here. I do transfers in front of a flow hood 6 feet from a rat cage and have 95+% success rate.


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Edited by Professor X (11/27/20 12:16 PM)


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OfflineGreens21
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Professor X]
    #27060107 - 11/27/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

they were 98% colonized before 5 weeks were up, and that's when I mixed them with the coir.




98% is not enough, you need to see 100% colonization, and then give it at least another day or two to be sure that even the parts you can’t see (inside the jar) are fully colonized as well.

Grains are vectors for contamination, and healthy mycelium fights contamination. Even if only a few grains aren’t colonized, when you spawn them to tub you’re giving any contaminants on them a head start to start colonizing your substrate at the same time as your recovering mycelium. Every grain needs to be snuffed out with healthy mycelium before you spawn, this is why we say 100%, not 98%.


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Greens21]
    #27060117 - 11/27/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't even see he stated he was spawning uncolonized grains.
An uncolonized grain is a mold foothold. Your coir is contamination resistant, wet carbohydrates are not.


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OfflineProfessor X
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: starbones]
    #27060151 - 11/27/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with Star. Sounds like you found your problem. Patience.


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Professor X]
    #27060367 - 11/27/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If you need a spoon to get your colonized grain out of the jar it's probably fucked


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27060457 - 11/27/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starbones said:
The thing I never liked about people saying they scoop grain with a spoon, including TCs that do it is what about cross contamination?



That's a good point, I always use the same spoon. I'll start using a different spoon for each jar (there's 7 of them).


Quote:

Professor X said:
are you using a 15psi weight and letting it rock for at least 1.5 hours? How are you doing transfers? Flow hood or SAB?



I'm using a chinese PC @ 15 PSI for 1.75 to 2 full hours (I put on the weights after 5-10 min of it steaming). I do the transfer in a SAB I wipe down with isopropyl alcohol first (I also wear gloves, a face mask, take a shower first).

Quote:

Greens21 said:
98% is not enough, you need to see 100% colonization, and then give it at least another day or two to be sure that even the parts you can’t see (inside the jar) are fully colonized as well.




Thanks, I'll start doing this.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
If you need a spoon to get your colonized grain out of the jar it's probably fucked



Regarding the spoon, the grain spawn is always hard enough that it needs an instrument like a spoon or fork to pull it out. I don't have a video of how I've done it with my jars, but this youtube video(@ 3:49) shows what it looks likes for me. The rye berries aren't free flowing (even after getting smacked) and need to be scooped out.

t=229

Maybe they flow out of the jars when they're a different kind of grain? (ex: popcorn, wbs, etc). My experience with rye berries is that they always clump with the mycelium...


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27060461 - 11/27/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You should be able to shake the fully colonizdd rye jar and pour out the spawn


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27060498 - 11/27/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

My WBS jars only need one or two decent hand smacks to turn into free pourable grains and unrinsed WBS is the stickiest shit in the world. Your hand smack might be weaker or methodology for breaking up the grains might not be the same so I don't know if I'd write off your spawn yet but that's as bod said a strong indicator something isn't right. I'm not sure what's going on in that Youtube video with that guys spawn but I only get spawn that chunky funky in 2 circumstances. 1) I left a jar colonizing so long it started to become a brick of myc or 2) Contamination.

Now not to spook you cause it could perhaps just come down to grain prep being off and your jars are colonizing FUCKING SLOWLY so by the time they're damn near finished spreading to all the grains they're really overgrown (This is all conjecture I have no idea, use proven spawn method prep) Having said that lemme ask, if your jars are taking so long to colonize even with LC... how long are you jars taking you? Long enough you're getting impatient.

It doesn't matter though, you could have the cleanest spawn on Shroomery and still get mold if you spawn uncolonized grains, even a few. Your mycelium actively tries to fight off any competitors from its food but that's only if it has a hold to fight from. Mold is far more aggressive anyday of the week and will jump on the opportunity.

Revisit your inoculant, Revisit your grain prep, throw the spoon away and try again. You don't learn by not fucking up and take it from a guy who fucks up a lot, you do learn eventually.

Seriously though, how much LC are you using in a jar and how long is it taking to colonize? I'm curious.


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27061072 - 11/28/20 03:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

At what % colonization  do you shake your jars?And how many times do you shake before your jars are 100%colonized?


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: normalperson]
    #27061154 - 11/28/20 06:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I use 5ml LC per quart of grain.
I shake to disperse the LC better at inoculating time.
Takes 24-48 hours to recover on the grains, within two days it's usually done colonizing over 30% of the jars, I give it a GOOD shake.
It finishes afterwards.

7-10 days for full colonization from inoculation is where I want to be with healthy LC, shorter if I prep grain a little on the dry side and use more LC.


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: normalperson]
    #27061459 - 11/28/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starbones said:

Seriously though, how much LC are you using in a jar and how long is it taking to colonize? I'm curious.




I used about 100 ml for 7 quart jars. They took 4-5 weeks.
Quote:

normalperson said:
At what % colonization  do you shake your jars?And how many times do you shake before your jars are 100%colonized?




Every couple of weeks or so?

This is a pic of a jar I'm currently colonizing, from a different batch. As you can see it's clumpy.



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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27061461 - 11/28/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That jar is FUCKED


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu] * 1
    #27061606 - 11/28/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Found your problem. No jar with healthy LC or proper grain prep should require a couple weeks.

That jar is super fucking wet and I can't believe you're not smelling things are being off if that's what your jars are looking like.
See how your myc is "walling off" on the grains? The spawns bacterial, heavily so. Myc should not form a straight border when colonizing.

If I said you're also incubating your jars would I be off base? Excessive moisture + high temperature gives bacteria the edge and myc will lost every single time.

Revisit your spawn prep, especially if you're using LC try on the dryer side. Go do bods oat prep with some oats. Are you SURE your LC is clean? You don't have any hidden bacteria in there?.
Healthy myc colonizing at 68f will outpace any jar at ~80f like most incubating types try to do for the reason that those ~80f jars are being slowed down by bacteria, unless the jars are absolutely perfect.

Make sure you're using your PC right as well.

Here is what you need to do in your current situation:


Doublecheck your inoculant. Make sure your LC is clean. If in doubt toss it.

Prepare your spawn on the dryer side of things. It will look too dry to you but follow bods tek for oat spawn on oats or just let your wheat dry longer. LC will add moisture. Wet is bad. Shake your jars after they cool off to get the moisture off the bottom.

Use your PC properly. If you have an actual PC capable of 15psi then ensure you're venting it for 10 minutes before you put the weight on. 10 minutes of full on steam pissing out the hole. Once the steam-stream is solid then time your 10 minutes. Don't take shortcuts here. Give it a full 2 hours at 15 PSI. Some do 90, you should do two.

Consider a different filter when using LC, polyfil seems like it has wicking protentional to me. I can't remember specifically but I thought in yonder years people had issues with moisture in jars getting on it, then bacteria being able to bridge from one side to the other via the moisture. It's not my favorite but consider using two layers of MP tape. Find some beading felt or "EZ felt" It's polyfil that's been flattened with heat and pressure and goes on the outside of the jar only. Or invest in some SFDs.

Improve your inoculating. Are you using a SAB or Flowhood? Doublecheck your sterile technique, flame that needle before it goes into your LC and flame it before it goes through each and every SHIP. Wear a mask, take a shower first. Everything helps.

Err on the side of caution, keep colonizing temps below 70. Assume at every point your jars are fucked from the get go and don't give the contaminates an environment to thrive.

What I'm trying to say is to go back to formula, go back to the beginning and start from scratch with what you're doing. Err on the side of caution and assume anything you are doing is going to fuck your jar. If your LC is healthy and clean and your spawn prep is right then your jars should be done in 7-14 days, I'd be wary of one that took 14 days though when using a good LC.

Sorry brochacho.


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Edited by starbones (11/28/20 04:23 PM)


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27061824 - 11/28/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
That jar is FUCKED



Because it's chunky?


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OfflinePearl
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27061848 - 11/28/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Dude, read Star's response...


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Pearl]
    #27061902 - 11/28/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

As well as this. How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE

Bright white, water condensing on the inside of the jar in controlled temps or if the myc looks like thick white lava spreading instead of tree roots is sure sign your cube myc is not healthy.

That jar is checking all the box's on that checklist.

I don't even bother holding up a tub or wasting coir if my jars are showing these signs.

There will be trich before primordia, at pins, or a plaster blob fest with a few mushrooms poking out by the time trich takes hold and body snatches your grow. :gumby:

I now people love there ugly children but as far as mushrooms go, they wont grow up to thank you for it.


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OfflineUcucu
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #27062231 - 11/28/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starbones said:
Found your problem. No jar with healthy LC or proper grain prep should require a couple weeks.



Thanks!!!!

Quote:

R.I.P.Zappa said:
As well as this.




Thanks, I'll review it all.


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OfflineKKVguitarist
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Ucucu]
    #27062247 - 11/28/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey so im not gonna post this on the thread you started because I'll get hammered with people that talk but don't try themselves

So I tried growing bulk from.grain to coir for 3 years and OVER AND OVER AND OVER I would get trich, I KNOW.my grain was clean and fully colonozed, every time

And people will say coir can't contaminate on its own so they stop you there and don't try to figure out whats going on because no one will beleive your grain was clean and colonozed.


I've used straight coir nothing else and it still contaminated.

If you have it figured out koo,

If you would like me to take the time to give you my.grow method that I created based around fighting hard-core contamination hit.me up.

I'm on telegram "kkvguitarist"

I've been gro9wing for about 8 years now and I make flowhoods for people and grow about 12 varieties of cubensis, lionsmane, oyster, and panaleous cyanascens.


Your going to get ALOOOOT of ppl on shroomery that like to message,  read, and regurgitate.

I only like really talking with people that are clearly actually doing the work and learning things first hand vs second hand

Message me.on telegram cause I don't check these messages super often


This is my grow



https://files.shroomery.org/files/20-48/662853485-IMG_20201128_121150_953.jpg


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: KKVguitarist]
    #27062499 - 11/29/20 07:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If you have to help people in private there's something wrong.

It really looks like you're just trying to sell people your overpriced stuff.
And maybe a picture of your grow with the grow part lol.


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27062505 - 11/29/20 07:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That guy's been sketchy as fuck today with his contact requests like this.


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Failboat]
    #27062507 - 11/29/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

OP, I bet $1 you've been skipping the venting. That's what tripped me up for years :lol::facepalm:


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Re: Keep getting infected tubs with trich, what am I doing wrong? [Re: Failboat]
    #27062508 - 11/29/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
That guy's been sketchy as fuck today with his contact requests like this.



He's close to a PM ban


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