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OfflineNicodArleone
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Registered: 12/31/19
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Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Bread question
    #27058736 - 11/26/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So I have basic bread question. I have recently been dabbling with and am having a hard time getting my dough to rise. I have read and tried several.solutions but to no avail. My solutions is that there is.something going on with the flour since the yeast.seems to be doing its thing in the water. My next step is to mill my own flour but since I dont have a flour grinder I have not yet tried. Does anyone think this is the solution to my problem or if.not what.is it.


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OfflineGreenHorns
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Re: Bread question [Re: NicodArleone]
    #27061029 - 11/28/20 01:53 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Any store bought flour should work fine just so as long as you have a high enough sugar content in the bread to jump start the yeast and as long as your not allowing the dough to raise in a cold environment.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Bread question [Re: GreenHorns]
    #27061408 - 11/28/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Unless you live in north korea the flour you can buy is just fine


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Bread question [Re: NicodArleone]
    #27065679 - 12/01/20 01:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NicodArleone said:
So I have basic bread question. I have recently been dabbling with and am having a hard time getting my dough to rise.



Could you be a bit more specific - where does it go wrong exactly and under what conditions?

I regularly bake bread and various bread products, both yeast and sourdough. With yeast, I simply mix in dried/powdered yeast with the flour and salt, add lukewarm water and mix. Let rest for 10 minutes, briefly knead, and repeat the rest-knead procedure a few times. It's not very critical. The dough has usually already risen noticeably after 15 minutes. I usually let it sit after the resting/kneading process for 30-60 minutes for a bread dough, or a few hours for a pizza dough. It always rises without fail. The degree of rising depends a lot on the kind of flour (whole grain, white, spelt, rye etc.) and the water content of the dough. Drier doughs don't rise as prominently as wetter doughs. My doughs are usually about 80-85%, which means for every 100g of flour I add 80-85g/ml of water. How much water works best, depends on the type of flour and requirements of further processing.

I've never had any issues with flour from whatever source. Resorting to milling-your-own is really not necessary. For sourdough starter, some flours don't work optimally (I prefer a mixture of 2/3 white flour + 1/3 whole grain rye flour for this with 80% water), but with yeast, no problems whatsoever.

Keep in mind that when baking bread, there are two critical stages for developing the crumb structure/aerating the dough. First, there's the initial rise which is a combination of autolysis (development of gluten) and aeration due to the activity of the yeast. Then there's the so-called 'oven spring', which essentially is due to water in the dough converting to steam in the first 10-15 minutes of baking, resulting in the bubbles in the bread expanding and giving the bread an open and springy texture. The oven spring won't go well if the dough hasn't developed and risen sufficiently prior to it. However, with modern dried yeasts and store-bought flour, you can go from initial mixing to baking within ca. 45 minutes and get a good result.


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OfflineNicodArleone
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27068171 - 12/02/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Well specifically the dough doesn't seem to want to rise.

I can get bagels, pretzels, pizza dough, and tortillas to come out with the dough but it still won't rise.

The videos I see of baking that the bread will rise multiple times even if punched down.

I'm just mostly curious why my dough won't rise.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Bread question [Re: NicodArleone] * 1
    #27072808 - 12/05/20 12:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

By 'more specific', I mean things like:

* What's your dough recipe exactly (type of flour, flour/water ratio, type and amount of yeast)
* How do you knead
* How long do you let it rise
* At what temperature do you let it rise

I'm also curious why your dough won't rise but it's kind of impossible to say anything about it if the situation is described only in terms of 'it won't rise', you see :wink:


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OfflineJonBa
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Registered: 05/14/19
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27093596 - 12/17/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Either your yeast is dead, you are rising it in the cold, or you are not leaving it long enough.

Assuming you are rising it at room temperature and giving it at least a full hour; the yeast is dead.


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OfflineNicodArleone
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27104231 - 12/23/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
By 'more specific', I mean things like:

* What's your dough recipe exactly (type of flour, flour/water ratio, type and amount of yeast)
* How do you knead
* How long do you let it rise
* At what temperature do you let it rise

I'm also curious why your dough won't rise but it's kind of impossible to say anything about it if the situation is described only in terms of 'it won't rise', you see :wink:



Quote:






So my exact recipe is adding 610g enriched unbleached all purpose flour to a bowl. Then I mix 4 g red star instant yeast with 50 ml 40 degree water and 8 g honey and let sit for 15 minutes. Then I add it to the flour. Mix and add 112g sweet cream salted butter and mix again. Finally I add 175 ml 10 degree water and let sit for 2 hours. As far as I can tell I have followed the proper instructions but the dough will not rise.

Maybe I'll try the local health food store for fresh yeast.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Bread question [Re: NicodArleone]
    #27104391 - 12/23/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Throw the yeast in a small jar with a pinch of sugar. You're not supposed to proof instant yeast but just see if it's alive.

250mL water 35-40c + A tea spoon of sugar. Wait a half hour see if it foams


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Bread question [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27105161 - 12/24/20 02:37 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

That's a lot of butter. Fat acts as a shortener, impeding gluten development which can reduce the flexibility of the dough and its ability to rise. Try it with much less or even no fat at all and see how that goes. Note that "bread" in it's pure form is just flour, water, yeast and a little salt. Salt is usually up to about 2-3% of the flour mass, but I'd start with 1-1.5%. Reason being that salt seems to help with gluten development, but it also reduces yeast activity, so it's a balancing act. Plus, too much salt ain't good for ya.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27106266 - 12/24/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Where on Earth did you find this recipe at? All of the wrong ratios are being used. First of all you are only using a 37% hydration level which is not enough water for yeast. You are also using way way too much butter. Your butter might have too much salt in it also. You should always bake with unsalted butter and then just use salt.

If I were you I would raise my hydration level to at least 60%. I don't know the metric measurement for this but cut your butter down to only one tablespoon. Use unsalted butter but then use between one to two teaspoons of salt. and you might want to test out your yeast to see if it is dead or not. Someone else mentioned to mix water with sugar and then put the yeast in it.

Use about a teaspoon of honey with your water also. The yeast likes honey and it also helps to give structure to your gluten.


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Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (12/25/20 12:03 AM)


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OfflineJonBa
Hawaiian shirt weirdo

Registered: 05/14/19
Posts: 361
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Bread question [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27108752 - 12/26/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

My go to bread recipe is 500g flour, 340ml water, 1.5 teaspoons salt, half teaspoon dry active yeast.

Fat and sugar just cause the gluten to not stretch properly and the yeast to blow itself out and not properly digest the flour in my experience.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Bread question [Re: JonBa]
    #27109153 - 12/26/20 02:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OutsideOfMyMind said:
First of all you are only using a 37% hydration level which is not enough water for yeast.



Yeah, I missed that because I was starstruck by the ridiculous amount of butter. But you're right, and actually, this stupidly low hydration level will make it virtually impossible for any dough to rise under even the most favorable conditions. I agree with your 'at least 60%' and would in fact keep it quite a bit higher. For 610g of flour, I'd go for 400-500ml of water. That's 66% - 80%.

Higher works OK too, but it then starts to depend a bit on the particular kind of flour and the way the dough is worked if it still remains possible to handle it without become too much of a sticky mess. For my breads I currently use about 2/3 plain white flour + 1/3 wholemeal rye flour and hydration of around 85%, so for e.g. 300g of flour (total) I'll add something like 250ml of water. But I have to admit this is mostly for sourdough baking (it would work fine with yeast as well, only quicker).

Quote:

JonBa said:
My go to bread recipe is 500g flour, 340ml water, 1.5 teaspoons salt, half teaspoon dry active yeast.




That's a completely fool-proof recipe that's just about guaranteed to work under all circumstances and will make a dough that's easy to handle. It would be an excellent start for OP.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27109305 - 12/26/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

For rye bread, you don't want too much water or it will turn out sticky and gummy.

I prefer a hydration level of 80% for my whole wheat loaf and 65% for my white spelt loaf.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,670
Re: Bread question [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27109932 - 12/27/20 01:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Rye actually accepts quite a bit of water. I prefer the crumb and the big air pockets I get with a high water content. It's a sticky dough at first, but it becomes easier to handle after a while.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27109967 - 12/27/20 01:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I do 80% for rye. I was doing 100% but it kept coming out slightly gummy.


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OfflineJonBa
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Registered: 05/14/19
Posts: 361
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Re: Bread question [Re: koraks]
    #27110121 - 12/27/20 04:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

JonBa said:
My go to bread recipe is 500g flour, 340ml water, 1.5 teaspoons salt, half teaspoon dry active yeast.




That's a completely fool-proof recipe that's just about guaranteed to work under all circumstances and will make a dough that's easy to handle. It would be an excellent start for OP.




Aye, and it makes very excellent bread. Especially if you cook it at a nice high temperature.

I use the same dough for pizza with very good results too, except for pizza I use 300ml of water instead of 340ml; makes the dough stiffer and lot easier to flatten out into an even disk.


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