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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed
    #27055962 - 11/24/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hello there, I am in the planning process of creating a fruiting chamber to be placed inside a walk-in closet and am looking for any concerns and/or advice for my plan.

The closet is about 6'x6'. I plan on using two wire shelving units with 5 tiers (each 30"x 14") placed next to each other. I will wrap the shelving units in some greenhouse plastic, or painting plastic tarps that are clear. I plan to place a large tray with perlite on the bottom, and have the bottom not closed off entirely. My main concern is FAE. I want massive amounts of constant FAE. I also want more FAE/evaporation at the top of the chamber to make ideal pinning conditions, as I plan on using the top shelf for colonized trays to pin, and lowering trays down the levels as they fruit. I am not looking for a fully automated set up, and enjoy caring for my trays and monitoring them. Simply want constant and massive FAE.

Humidity: I will place a cool-mist humidifier on the bottom shelf and set it up to a humidity controller. I plan to move the humidity monitor around different locations in the enclosure to test humidity at various levels. Also will adjust the setpoints as I adjust and grow trays and see what works. If humidity is an issue, I can add an ultrasonic set up to the controller and switch the cool-mist to a timer (or 24/7 if needed), or I can also add a larger humidifier to constantly run inside the closet. I will figure it out. Again, I am not too worried about humidity as this is easier to control/not as critical in my opinion as FAE. 

FAE: My plan is to cut 4 holes on the ceiling of the enclosure in an effort to increase evaporation towards the top of the chamber. I will monitor the trays several times a day and mist as needed. Each level will likely hold two trays for each shelving unit, so 4 trays total for each level. The holes on top will be centered to be above each tray. Should I cover these holes with any filter material? Also, leaving completely open holes may cause too much of a drop in RH/evaporation so what are y'alls thoughts on this? I want the top level to be ideal for pinning trays and wish to design it for such, so what are your thoughts on this. Is a "dedicated pinning level" far-fetched and would it not even matter. Or is this an interesting idea? On each level, I plan on making holes in the tarp which are adjustable. Unsure of how I will do this, I want it to be easily adjustable but simple and not bulky. Perhaps magnetic strips.

The air in the closet has little to no draft even when my room fan is on and the closet door is open. I also wish to leave the door closed. So, I have trouble getting a lot of FAE in the closet. I was thinking of placing a small fan on the top shelf of my closet (it is 12" or less from the ceiling) to create some flow at the ceiling of the closet. Why the ceiling? For one, will not blow up any contaminants/dust/unwanted shit around the closet. Two, my thought is the warmer air up top will be moved around creating more turbulence and mixing the air around better and more naturally rather than a direct fan on grow chamber/trays (could be total bull shit). If I have a fan running constantly, I expect to have some trouble with humidity. I can also put the fan on a timer if this is an issue. I just fucking want constant, massive FAE, as much as possible, while also being able to maintain humidity, is that too hard to ask? I can mist however often needed if trays are drying too fast. I do not want to mist 6 times a day, but 1-3x a day depending on the tray is fine with me.

So, what are your thoughts? How big should I expect to make the holes to allow for constant and vast FAE without dropping the humidity too much? Should I use tyvek filters on the holes? Is a fan in the room a bad idea? Or could it be done? How could I achieve massive FAE in essentially draft-free closet space otherwise? Is my idea to have the levels through the enclosure dedicated for different points in cultivation ridiculous? Or is there some value in this and worth trying out? I also am curious if perhaps adding some house plants in the closet could be a little boost to the grow set up. Would remove CO2 and provide oxygen, as well as I just like the idea of having more life to share the space of the fungus. I wonder how much effect this would have if any.

The overall goal is to have as much fucking FAE as possible, have an ideal pinning environment on the top level, have constant new trays added and removed as needed, and still maintain proper humidity.


Thank you in advance for any criticism/comments/advice. I am not opposed to harsh criticism but keep it productive. I have been on this forum for several years lurking but have not made account/posted til recently. I am in my 50s and wanted to move from being a lurker to an engaged member of this incredible community finally. To the trsuted/experienced cultivators, shred me a new one if you wish I will not be offended!


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Edited by shadyshroomie (11/24/20 07:28 PM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27056053 - 11/24/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You want to keep rh up around 90%. FAE should be provided as much as possible without lowering the rh too much. The best way to do that is to automate the rh with a humidistat. Pump humidity into the grow chamber when the rh drops down to 88% and stop pumping when the rh reaches 92%. FAE should be provided with either a forced intake and a passive exhaust or vice versa.

I would recommend 1:2-1:3 ratio of spawn to bulk. I would also recommend putting spores to agar first. You could end up losing a lot of grain trying to harvest the first fruit to put to agar. Might as well just start with agar and save yourself the frustration. The most successful way of using lc is to start with agar.

I appreciate the pm asking me to critique your plan but I am no expert. I don't have a single fruit to post on this site. Better wait for a TC to go a little more in depth in critiqueing your planned course of action.


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: BrownBear]
    #27056067 - 11/24/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you very much. I have a lot of experience with various science and lab work, but am transitioning to mycology (have decent experience but not much with bulk growing). I am wondering if rather than using a fan to circulate air in the closet space, perhaps having intake fans at the top of the chamber set up to timers, with passive exhaust at the bottom/through various holes/slits throughout, would be better as it would not only provide FAE but also increase evaporation at the top level for pinning trays. Again there is not much air coming in/out of the closet and I am worried about stagnant air/CO2 levels.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27056088 - 11/24/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If you cannot create a plan to keep air moving out of the grow chamber you may want to consider growing in monotubs instead. All you would need is a fan pointing away from the tubs in order to keep air circulating in the closet. Check out pastywhyte's and bodhissata's teks. They are probably 2 of the top 3 cultivators in mush cult.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: BrownBear]
    #27056113 - 11/24/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah unless you’re doing this just for the love of doing projects a wall of tubs is the way to go.


That said, if you can set up air intake and exhaust a 6x6’ room should be pretty easy to set up and dial in with some timers and a humidifier. I had a friend with a similar set up for weed where air would come in through the roof and then get sucked through a filter and piped out the bottom of the house and it wasn’t much to rig up.


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: A.k.a]
    #27056141 - 11/24/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you! Part of it certainly is having fun and I like the idea, and enjoy building and creating shit. Plus it is just cool. My useable space is essentially 30"x30"x60" high. I am unsure how I could set up tubs that would produce similar yields in this confined space. I also want a system that is consistently fruiting, pinning, and colonizing to have consistent harvests. Perhaps having storage shelving to increase space vertically, where I could put 6 quart tubs on would provide the same yield? If so, I definitely would go with that option because it is cheaper, and also due to not planning on having this operating for that long (6 months about), a greenhouse set up may be too much and I would be better off with tubs. If I were to go with tubs on shelving unit, would I still get plenty of FAE inside the closet if I had a circulating fan?

Is there any reason that there needs to be dedicated air intake or exhaust in use? Why would slits/holes in the tent with consistently moving air in the closet not provide adequate FAE (thinking about RRs discussion of simply using cool-mist at bottom and slits throughout as being more than functional. Maybe this is not inside a closet?).

Regardless of my interest with projects and enjoying them, my main goal is to produce as much as possible, consistently, in a 6 month time frame. So finding genetics that are fast colonizers, with the majority of the yield coming in the first flush or two, is my main concern. I do also like the idea of several tubs because if needed, they are easier to take down or move. Just worried about not being able to produce as much and have it be a continual, consistent operation as I believe a greenhouse/martha would be.

Edit: forgive me if I sound like a noobie. LabGeek with lots of lab experience, but not too much extensive cultivation experience in mycology. I will fail. I will learn. And most importantly I will have fun doing so. There is only so much research one can do but until it is applied, you will never know. I appreciate all the responses.


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Edited by shadyshroomie (11/25/20 10:33 AM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27056295 - 11/24/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I have only grown in greenhouses for 13 years. Some thoughts on your plans:

You want your ultrasonic at the top of the chamber, not the bottom. Ultrasonic mist is very dense and sinks, so having it at the top allows it to dissipate evenly as it falls through the greenhouse. Keeping your humidifier at the bottom forces the bottom to fill up to near 100% humidity before the top has even elevated.

As far as FAE you are exactly right... the best bet is to cut slits in your plastic and have a fan outside the chamber periodically blowing fresh air in. I have a standard floor oscillating fan hooked up to a timer that has 96 settings (every 15 minutes), which can easily be found on amazon for less than $10. The fan is set to turn on for 15 minutes out of every two hours, and is positioned so that it only blows directly at the chamber at the farthest point in its oscillation, meaning that it’s mostly blowing air away from the chamber but blows air directly in for a few seconds out of each rotation. This provides a substantial amount of fresh air while allowing your humidifier to “catch up” on humidity while the fan is blowing away from the chamber as opposed to just having dry air blasted at your substrate for 15 straight minutes.

Ditch the humidistat and just find the setting on your humidifier where it’s maintaining very high humidity/foggy conditions but doesn’t get everything soaking wet before the fan turns on. If the fan is large enough and far enough away from the chamber, it will provide FAE and evaporation for the entire chamber at once, there will be no need to rotate shelves to match ideal conditions, the entire greenhouse will just be ideal for all of fruiting.

Any other questions, feel free to ask


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27056328 - 11/24/20 09:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Underbeds or shoeboxes. You can stack them and there’s like zero wasted space.



Or with good clones even shoeboxes will put out up to 50g dry first flush from one quart of spawn.



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Edited by A.k.a (11/24/20 09:56 PM)


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27056905 - 11/25/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Greens21 said:
I have only grown in greenhouses for 13 years. Some thoughts on your plans:

You want your ultrasonic at the top of the chamber, not the bottom. Ultrasonic mist is very dense and sinks, so having it at the top allows it to dissipate evenly as it falls through the greenhouse. Keeping your humidifier at the bottom forces the bottom to fill up to near 100% humidity before the top has even elevated.




Humid air is less dense than dry air no? Having a cool-mist at the bottom would humidify the air in the greenhouse and cause the more humid air to rise. If I was running the cool-mist too long it certainly would have that effect as over saturating the air would cause pools of water to form/condense and drip everywhere. Humid air itself is less dense than dryer air, thus as long as I am not over saturating the environment I do not believe this would be an issue. Anyone have second opinion on this? Or I guess a third :smile:
Also, I plan on misting as needed. I am not using the humidifier to provide mist to the substrates, but rather to maintain RH within the chamber. I will then mist as needed specific to each tray.

Quote:

Greens21 said:

As far as FAE you are exactly right... the best bet is to cut slits in your plastic and have a fan outside the chamber periodically blowing fresh air in. I have a standard floor oscillating fan hooked up to a timer that has 96 settings (every 15 minutes), which can easily be found on amazon for less than $10. The fan is set to turn on for 15 minutes out of every two hours, and is positioned so that it only blows directly at the chamber at the farthest point in its oscillation, meaning that it’s mostly blowing air away from the chamber but blows air directly in for a few seconds out of each rotation. This provides a substantial amount of fresh air while allowing your humidifier to “catch up” on humidity while the fan is blowing away from the chamber as opposed to just having dry air blasted at your substrate for 15 straight minutes.






That is a really great idea for FAE. I like the idea of having very brief direct flow to increase evaporation without drying substrates excessively. I am going to cut big holes in the side to access my trays when need be, and use magnetic strips to re-connect the holes with the covering and be able to slide the covering up or down to create larger or smaller slits as needed.



I realize my original question is kind of unrealistic as there are far too many variables for anyone to answer my specific needs. No one can tell me "yeah go ahead and put 6 holes this size at this location" because at the end of the day a greenhouse just needs adjusting due to personal location/environment/setup/species/etc etc etc. My plan is to have a basic setup that is simple as shit, no inline fans or exhaust fans and such, automatic misters, etc. Then by designing my slits/covering in a way that allows for easy adjusting, I will tune the GH as needed and adjust a timing schedule for a circulatory fan within my closet. Or perhaps I find it better to just leave my closet door open and ceiling fan on. Who knows. Not me. Not you. But ya damn right we gonna find out eventually :wink:

For a fan within the closet, what do you guys think would be better? A small portable desk-type fan (like a clip-on, low power fan) that is on 24/7 and placed higher in the closet just to create some airflow/movement in the closet? Or a larger more powerful fan that is on a timer to create a lot of airflow occasionally? Also for clarification, I am not turning my 6'x6' closet into a grow chamber. I still need my clothes! I am just using the space to set up a wire shelving greenhouse.


Edited by shadyshroomie (11/25/20 10:36 AM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27057189 - 11/25/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Do you yet own an ultrasonic humidifier? Put it on a shelf and turn it on and watch all the mist fall to the floor, this is how an ultrasonic humidifier works. A cool mist creates humid air that is blown with a fan, but is far less efficient than an ultrasonic. You would have a pretty difficult time maintaining humidity above 75-80% with a cool mist alone. Ultrasonics create a heavy mist, like fog, that settles to the lowest points, and will easily reach 95+% humidity at a setting lower than half power in a greenhouse your size


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27057275 - 11/25/20 03:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Greens21 said:
Do you yet own an ultrasonic humidifier? Put it on a shelf and turn it on and watch all the mist fall to the floor, this is how an ultrasonic humidifier works. A cool mist creates humid air that is blown with a fan, but is far less efficient than an ultrasonic. You would have a pretty difficult time maintaining humidity above 75-80% with a cool mist alone. Ultrasonics create a heavy mist, like fog, that settles to the lowest points, and will easily reach 95 % humidity at a setting lower than half power in a greenhouse your size




Mist does not equal humidity. You cannot see the humidity of the air. "Seeing the mist fall to the ground" does not change the fact that humid air is less dense than dry air and thus humidity rises, according to physics. What you are seeing fall to the ground is water droplets, not water vapor. Sometimes there is a lot of other physics at play which may cause humidity at the bottom of a chamber to be higher, I do not know, but this is not natural or what humid air does on its own. All other forces out of the picture, humid air rises. 


I do not have an ultrasonic. I have this humidifier: Humidifier

I live in a humid environment. Humidity ranges from 40%-100% essentially. Steady around 50% most days I believe, do not really check humidity that often. RR seems to have no trouble maintaining RH with only a cool mist and perlite bottom. Seen plenty of others find success with only a cool mist. Since it will be in my closet as well I feel the closet will maintain high humidity and with a full greenhouse likely will not be an issue. Of course, who knows and I may need to end up buying an ultrasonic or figure out something else to increase humidity.

I get the overall impression that RH in a greenhouse is not all that important. Of course, it is. But, if you can maintain decent enough RH as long as you have proper surface conditions, I feel like it will be alright. That is assuming only if there is massive FAE. Of course, holding 80% RH with shit FAE would not be good. But I would rather have massive FAE and 85% RH, case my trays and see what happens than have 98% RH with absolute shit FAE.

Would circulating air within the closet not provide FAE due to it being closed off? In essence, is airflow going into and out of the greenhouse what is important in terms of FAE, or does the air flowing in and out have to circulate with a larger volume of air (such as the bedroom or rest of my house) to suffice in getting FAE? Some clarity on what FAE means in real life/application would be nice if anyone is an expert. Of course, I get what it is and get what it does in essence, but what does that actually look like in different applications?


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Edited by shadyshroomie (11/25/20 03:31 PM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27057308 - 11/25/20 03:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

An ultrasonic will allow you to maintain 98% humidity and massive FAE, this is my point.

The mist that a USH puts off evaporates into the air, creating even humidity throughout the chamber as it falls. Putting a USH at the bottom of the chamber does not allow the mist to fall, forcing the humidity to build from the bottom up which takes significantly longer, meaning that you cannot introduce as much fresh air into the chamber because it will take the chamber longer to re-humidify.

Funny that you bring RR into this, because he’s the one that told me 13 years ago to ditch my cool mist and use only the ultrasonic (I had both running at one point).

You’re free to do what you want, it sounded like you came here looking for advice but now it just seems like you came here looking for someone to tell you that your idea would work.

I’ve been doing this for 13 years and have tweaked and experimented within my greenhouse the entire time.

You will absolutely not maintain nearly as high humidity with the same volume of fresh air with a cool mist that you can with an ultrasonic. Ultrasonics humidify much more rapidly than cool mists which allows you to bring in more fresh air without drying everything out, but this is only the case if the USH is at the top of the chamber. If it’s at the bottom, you might as well just use cool mist.

But do what you want, sounds like you’re going to anyway.

Edit: even though that humidifier says cool mist in the title, by all appearances, it seems to be ultrasonic. They’re just trying to make it appear in more search results by including the words “cool mist” repeatedly throughout the listing


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Edited by Greens21 (11/25/20 04:06 PM)


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Invisibleshadyshroomie
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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27057373 - 11/25/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

My apologies for coming off negatively, just trying to work through the details so I can understand on my own. You're right, I am going to do what I want... but what I want to do will be based upon the advice of people in this forum who have more experience than myself and then working through it on my own grow. I am not the type of person to follow someone's advice without understanding why they are giving that advice, and your comments certainly clear that up, so thank you.

Would you then put the ultrasonic (which I guess is what I got lol) on the top shelf and allow it to function the same way as a cool mist on the bottom? Would it be essentially the same set up just different placement, and on a timer rather than a humidity controller? Or pipe it in? Curious where the FAE comes from if it is inside the greenhouse, or does the FAE come from holes/slits which air is moved through when the US is functioning?


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Edited by shadyshroomie (11/25/20 04:19 PM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27057401 - 11/25/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry for getting snippy, new growers often show up asking questions and then refuse to listen to the answers and it can get irritating.

You’ll spend some time dialing in your chamber, ideally before you’re fruiting. There is no need for a timer or sensor on the ultrasonic; at its highest setting, it will create far too much moisture in too short of a time period, and will saturate everything in your GH. At its lowest setting, it will never reach an ideal humidity for your chamber. All you have to do is find the highest setting at which no water is pooling on any surface inside your GH before your fan comes on (assuming you put your fan on a timer, which is my recommendation. A smaller fan running constantly but indirectly will work, but you will never achieve a complete “reset” of all of the air in your chamber, which IME is what makes the huge difference. Indirect swirling air in your grow area will be better than stagnant air, but won’t be as good as completely replacing all the air inside your chamber every so often). If you have your fan running the way you want and water is pooling inside your chamber, turn the setting down. Then, if you notice humidity is falling below 90% at any point other than when the fan is blowing directly into your chamber, turn the setting up. Eventually you will find that sweet spot where it maintains ideal humidity without soaking everything, and you never have to mess with it again other than to refill it.

Some people have had success piping in humidity, but RR told me when I was first getting started that it would shorten the life of my humidifier, so I never did it. I’ve always just kept it on the top shelf, which these days is actually a small shelf on the wall above the rest of my shelves so I have more grow space, but I did used to just run one less tray and keep the humidifier on the top grow shelf. The fan would be your primary source of FAE, not the humidifier

As far as keeping the fan inside the closet, as long as you’re opening the closet door once a day or more, the air in the closet but outside of the chamber will be more than fresh enough to cycle your chamber gasses


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27057432 - 11/25/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No worries at all, been lurking on the forum long enough to understand :crazy2:

That is incredibly fucking helpful and makes a lot of sense. I assume in nature there are periods of stagnant air with sudden gusts occasionally, rather than slight constant breeze with no gusts. I have been struggling to understand FAE and you just made it click. To dial in the greenhouse before fruiting (will likely have shoeboxes set up in meantime) would you recommend placing damp perlite to mimick trays to get a more accurate reading of how it will function and for adjusting?


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27057453 - 11/25/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I keep perlite in the bottom of my chamber under the shelves always. I’m not sure how necessary it is, but I’ve always done it and been able to easily keep ideal conditions so I’ve never changed it, perlite is cheap enough

Edit: I now realize that you’re talking about creating fake trays to simulate the environment when your trays are birthed. I don’t think it’s necessary, at worst your conditions will change slightly once you introduce the trays, so you might have to make a slight adjustment in your settings, but you’re talking about a very short time period where your conditions are 95% perfect before you tweak it. That’s not the same at all as putting your trays into an undialed chamber and then coming back in five hours to find that everything is dried out or completely soaked because you never took the time to find the right humidity levels


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27063300 - 11/29/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Greens21 said:
I keep perlite in the bottom of my chamber under the shelves always. I’m not sure how necessary it is, but I’ve always done it and been able to easily keep ideal conditions so I’ve never changed it, perlite is cheap enough







That makes sense and thank you for your advice it certainly will help me tune in greenhouse much quicker. I will have 5 levels to the greenhouse with the top one (level 5) being the ceiling. If I place the humidifier on the 4th level it will nearly be touching the top of my plastic covering. I assume it will shoot humidity straight into the plastic. Would placing it on the 3rd level perhaps be better? That way the mist can shoot up towards the top without just blasting straight into the top of the plastic, then allowed to fall evenly throughout the chamber. Of course will adjust as I set things up but these are my initial thoughts.

Would you recommend a humidity sensor to monitor the RH levels? Or should I just find the max setting where I do not get pooling and not worry about measuring RH levels at all? Also, do you case your trays in your greenhouse? I like the idea of a casing but I also am trying to have a fast turnover of trays and am wondering how much benefit a casing layer provides cubes compared to the additional few days they would add to harvest time.

My plans as of now are to colonize bulk substrate in a lined aluminum tray in the 1:2 spawn to sub ratio range, and then after full colonization case them and place in the fruiting environment right after casing. Substrate depth will be about 2.5" if I case, and closer to 3" if I don't case. I will likely test trays with and without casing to see any differences. But my goal is to get the greenhouse to be consistently yielding fungi with the top level closest to light used for pinning colonized trays, and the next 3 levels used as fruiting levels. I want to be able to place new trays on the top level once the current ones pin, and find a system where I always have spawn colonizing, trays colonizing, and trays fruiting.

If you do not mind, I would be interested in hearing what your current system is for spawning, colonizing, fruiting, etc. I am currently colonizing spawn and will harvest this go around using a dubtub, zombie tub, or shoebox type method as I will not have the greenhouse fully operational by the time the spawn is ready. I am trying to learn as much/get as much info as possible before attempting the greenhouse grow and any information on other people's systems/schedules for creating new spawn, trays, etc. would be super helpful to help guide what routes I take. Thanks again for the help, I appreciate it a lot.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27063361 - 11/29/20 04:51 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

If it’s not possible to raise the top level of plastic, then yes I would recommend putting the humidifier on the second from top shelf and make sure it’s able to blast mist above the level of the top trays. Putting it directly under the plastic will lead to large amounts of condensation and dripping water.

You’re welcome to get a cheap hygrometer, as it will probably make you feel better since you’re just getting started to know what your humidity levels are, but in all honesty you’ll find that it’s unnecessary once you’re dialed in.

I always case, though I only grow PE which needs a casing layer to fruit properly. Even before I grew PE, I preferred a casing layer as I felt it was easier to pick fruits. 0.5” is pretty deep for a casing layer, and shallow trays yield short fruits (IME), so I’d get them all as close to 3” as possible and just apply a very thin casing layer to the ones you want to try it with.

I spawn WBS to CVG at 1:2, though my trays are deeper than yours, so it’s usually 5qt spawn to 10qt CVG in each tub. I also pasteurize my CVG even though these days people say it’s unnecessary. But I’ve always done it and always had great success so I see no reason to stop doing it. Then I just keep them all in the chamber at the right humidity with a 6500k fluorescent light at the top, case at 100% colonization and patch the casing once. Then just wait and eventually I have tons of shrooms. I don’t switch shelves at all.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27063915 - 11/30/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

This is all incredibly helpful. Thank you.

After full colonization and casing, do you then place trays directly into fruiting environment? Or do you wait for the casing layer to colonize partially?

Another question on lighting, is one lighting fixture up top sufficient for the whole chamber? Or would adding LED waterproof grow light strips to each level be better in addition to top light fixture?

Another question... what do you think about adding another humidifier on the very bottom shelf with the air intake placed so that it is pulling air from outside the chamber?

I will be using two 5 tier wire racks that are 30"W x 14"D x 60"H. I will space them apart probably about 9" so the middle of my chamber is an open-air column 9" wide, and will use small metal beams crossing between the two racks to place the US humidifier in the middle. This way no shelving space is taken up and the mist will flow more evenly throughout the chamber as is it sourced in the middle. My thoughts for adding a second humidifier in a similar manner on the bottom are:

1) They are cheap so why not? 

2) Although subtle, could add a constant supply of fresh air to the chamber if positioned to intake outside air which could be an added bonus to the more substantial FAE provided by the oscillating fan on a timer.

3) Will provide mist for the trays on the bottom that may not receive as much due to most mist falling on higher shelves/not reaching the bottom.

4) If I were to find a humidifier with a fan or oscillating output, it would add more air currents inside the chamber helping to disperse the mist from the US up top more evenly, and also increase passive FAE through venting holes. Also more air flow I assume decreases the ability for contaminants to take hold inside the greenhouse.

5) Would allow larger vent holes/more frequent fanning from the outside fan to increase FAE while still being able to maintain RH. Perhaps rather than 15 min on every two hours, might be able to do 5 min on every 30 min or so? Having the second humidifier could take the RH back up faster than the single US up top, thus I could increase the frequency of fanning intervals thus increasing total daily FAE.

6) I feel like it would create more even humidity throughout the chamber. With one US up top, I would not be surprised if pockets of high humidity/pooling would occur as the mist would fall with a semi-consistent pattern, potentially favoring certain spots. Having mist/humidity sourced on the bottom in addition to the top I assume would create more turbulent airflow throughout the chamber and thus even out the RH and reduce potential pooling areas.

7) Gives more ability to dial/fine-tune the conditions as I would not be restricted to one US providing all humidity. Just adds another variable to fine-tune and adjust.

8) Lastly, if I am able to put both humidifiers on lower settings, would decrease how often I need to refill containers. I would rather refill two containers every 3 days than 1 container every day and a half...

The cons to this I see are more chance of failure if one breaks (however this is a built-in fail-safe because if one breaks, can temporarily increase the mist output of other humidifier before getting new unit and save the grow). Also potentially creates too much moisture and thus cause pooling. However, I feel this could be easily fixed by opening up larger venting holes/increasing frequency of fanning, both of which provide additional benefits for FAE... I would assume given my unsubstantial mycology knowledge.

My thoughts on this may be entirely misguided or illogical, but what do you think about this idea?

I see it as a simple way to increase constant FAE, increase the ability to fine-tune the greenhouse, add more air circulation to distribute mist more evenly throughout, and also serve as a fail-safe in case one humidifier goes out and prevent complete loss of grows inside the chamber. I do not see many downsides besides taking up grow space, which is not an issue considering how I plan to set up the racks, and too much moisture which can easily be adjusted/fixed by larger holes/more frequent fanning. Let me know what you think, and any other input from other growers would be appreciated as well! I am stoked to get it up and running :smile:


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27064165 - 11/30/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

What you're writing looks like when my brain is trying to prematurely optimize something, before I even try and understand the basics. Not trying to be snarky or anything, as I said it's something I struggle with.

I suggest getting the basic setup done and working, before aiming for perfection on paper. Then you can test and tweak as needed, rather than trying to plan for every hypothetical scenario, and solve every theoretical problem. Really cuts down the workload.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: dfwerydfhg]
    #27064270 - 11/30/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dfwerydfhg said:
What you're writing looks like when my brain is trying to prematurely optimize something, before I even try and understand the basics. Not trying to be snarky or anything, as I said it's something I struggle with.

I suggest getting the basic setup done and working, before aiming for perfection on paper. Then you can test and tweak as needed, rather than trying to plan for every hypothetical scenario, and solve every theoretical problem. Really cuts down the workload.




Yeah you are 100% correct. I like to plan things out as much as I can but I definitely feel like any more time spent planning how I am gonna provide FAE/RH before I actually set it up will not lead to any more success. My time would be better spent learning more about agar, LC, and various other aspects of mycology.

To go against what I just admitted, I am going to ask one more question about FAE haha. What are people's thoughts on filling large holes in the greenhouse with polyfill to increase FAE while maintaining humidity? This would be in addition to small slits/vents.

I feel like I am overthinking all of this shit and in reality as long as RH is maintained, and there is sufficient FAE, shit will fruit... I have this idea that fruiting success increases linearly with increased FAE so I am trying to figure out ways to get a ton of FAE and maintain humidity. I would not be surprised if as I gain more experience, I realize I was overthinking FAE and all this shit and it was much more simple than I believed... and it just needs to be dialed in after setting up.


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27064465 - 11/30/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Definitely no need for polyfill, the plastic with slits will be more than ample to trap humidity inside while allowing tons of FAE.

You can get a second humidifier if you want, I actually have a second one connected to the same timer as my fan set to its highest setting so that it dumps tons of extra moisture in while the fan is drying things out (just another thing to dial in making sure that you’re not getting too much moisture). I think you’ll be fine with just the one in a chamber of your size, but worst case, like you said, a second humidifier would keep you from having to refill as often as they would both be on a lower setting than if you had just one.

If you want 5 minutes on, 30 minutes off, you’ll need a digital timer, which exist but they’re a good deal more expensive than the analog 15 minute “switch” timers. I think it’s unnecessary though, as the amount of gasses that build up in 30 minutes will be negligibly less than what would build up in two hours, and you’d also need your humidifier(s) on higher settings, so I think you’d just be adding more work for yourself without much real benefit


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Edited by Greens21 (11/30/20 11:56 AM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: Greens21]
    #27064971 - 11/30/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Greens21 said:

You can get a second humidifier if you want, I actually have a second one connected to the same timer as my fan set to its highest setting so that it dumps tons of extra moisture in while the fan is drying things out (just another thing to dial in making sure that you’re not getting too much moisture). I think you’ll be fine with just the one in a chamber of your size, but worst case, like you said, a second humidifier would keep you from having to refill as often as they would both be on a lower setting than if you had just one.






Ahh that genius... I like the idea of temporarily blasting humidity while oscillating fan is on.

How full can you pack the greenhouse? I am deciding which trays to get. My goal is to only have trays in the greenhouse as long as they are flushing higher yields, likely not going past a 3rd flush (will leave trays in for 3rd flush that are looking nice and still yielding some, or if I do not have more trays colonized). Goal is to have high turnover of trays.

With shelves that are 30" x 14", would placing 3 10" x 13" on the shelves be too packed? 3" Deep Trays

I would probably use 2 quarts of grain spawn, to 2-2.5 quarts compost bulk sub. Then add a 1/4" casing layer. Any advice on substrate depth, ratio, and spacing on the shelves you have found to be optimal in your greenhouse?

Or any advice on using larger trays with more spawn and deeper sub, or several smaller trays, etc etc. I would like to cycle trays every 7-10 days. Of course will need to find the strain, clone, and technique that will get me towards that. But any info from a long time GH grower regarding different trays would help!

Thanks again for all the help its tremendous.


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Edited by shadyshroomie (11/30/20 04:20 PM)


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Re: Martha/Greenhouse/FAE/Advice Needed [Re: shadyshroomie]
    #27064994 - 11/30/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I prefer as few larger trays as possible. Spacing is not an issue, cram it as full as you can. However, since you’re just getting started, you’re much more likely to encounter contams, so you might be better off doing more smaller trays so that you’re able to remove any contammed trays. If only one of your jars is contammed, then you lose one tray; better for it to be one small tray with 2qt spawn than one large one with 5-6qt spawn.

Do the 10x13 trays you’re looking at specify their quartage? 10x13x3” is 390 cubic inches, which is over 6.5 quarts, which means you could use more bulk sub than what you specified. But that’s of course assuming those are the interior measurements. In general I like 1:2 spawn:sub, 1:1 will colonize faster but I feel the texture of 1:2 is better for overall health


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