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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27053311 - 11/23/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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skOsH
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27053451 - 11/23/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am at work, so right now I do not have time to read everyone's responses so far, as I didn't see this thread until earlier
My 2c--when I was on LSD, I thought I was seeing reality, but at a very high frame rate. I assume, and this is just a guess, that my brain can render all these frames, which reveal beautiful patterns, but our brains are able to learn patterns at a very early age, and once we have object permanence, we probably just start seeing solid objects as just that, solid objects, and whilst we can see a beautiful fractal in a sunflower if we concentrate enough, or look long enough, we will notice it.
With LSD, at least for me, those patterns are forcefully there and deliberately stand out....and everything likes to change colors or move around, as well...then theres random creepy people and black hole looking things on higher doses if you're outside lmao, also pocket universes as I like to call them
I think with LSD your brain is overclocked, or unlocked, or somehow, perceives reality as an adult without object permanence. Then again, for the closed eyed visuals...I don't know what that is about. Our brain can do a lot of calculations about our environment using fractal mathematics, and most everything can be broken down into a fractal
With DMT, it's weird. I see a hyperrealistic version of reality, and that is what is real. That is, orally active DMT. With DMT smoked I see...rapid geometry similar to LSD and on a breakthrough everything just looks digital...like being flung into the Matrix.
With psilocybin I see some unseen force playfully moving around the fabric of space and also giving me amazing, usually aztecan visions for patterns. I*don't get fractals on psilocybin as much as DMT or LSD.
Edit: typo. When your device auto corrects "I" to "K" it is no longer doing it correctly lol.
Edited by skOsH (11/23/20 10:02 AM)
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jdawg333
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: skOsH]
#27053465 - 11/23/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Could you maybe elaborate on the random creepy people and black holes stuff sometime? I'd be curious what kind of dose created that and how they made you feel while tripping
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#27053575 - 11/23/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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this is at least three questions and more than 3 different things going on all the time - the following are my thoughts on the matter arranged in the sequence as asked. I will try to connect the physiological factors with the psychedelic effect of {X} intensifying by layering with or without trails, and reconstructing by combinations of images over a flexible period of time that can be {Y} looped with or without trails:
question 1. why see fractals?
question 2. why see geometric forms?
question 3. why see motifs?
1. fractals seen on psychs are natural forms: (1.1) plantlike growth and branching, (1.2) shell like spiral trajectories, or zoom scale repetition of the figure (1.3).
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1.1 plant forms and growth - we have historically evolved after millions of years living in forests and on plains where we encountered natural formations such as budding and unfolding of new branches and leaves. when we see forms that are similar to plant forms our minds begin perception tests for what would be expected in contact with the flash of color or perception of leaf stem or bud. as the mind examines the contiguous ares for expected visual form, it actually projects a template for that form. the projection of an expected edge or curve or color has a longer energy resonance and can appear to the stoned person as the actual thing that could be expected, i.e. checking for plant forms creates plant forms, and since they are natural and primal they are a source of tremendous natural hallucinatory imagery. these {X} intensify by layering with or without trails
1.2 spiral forms and progressions (fractal zone) besides linear and curving progressions found in plant forms, the spiral or logarithmic progression is especially satisfying as it assures a natural wholeness of a plant with both mature and new growing elements, with the motion trails of landing of birds, and the turning and advancing motions of all creatures. spirals are key elements in the larger class of fractals, and they are also how all things seem to grow, first from a single cell, then dividing and continuing in this way producing a geometric sequence (i.e. the power functions like squared and cubed are related to a sequence of doubling and redoubling etc.) these {Y} loop with or without trails
1.3 zoom scale repetition (fractal zone) what is notable among fractal formations, is that the salient motif can be observed at large scale and then again in an amazing reversal of figure and ground at both larger scale and smaller orders of scale after repeating in endlessly continuing spiral progression. When we are stoned, not only do we anticipate and especially appreciate natural plant and animal forms, but we experience layering (repetition) trails, and loops. One can hallucinate copies of any form effortlessly, merely as a consequence of persistence of images (not the same as after images, since persistence is in the same color, just not yet faded away imagery still resonating in the visual cortex. Copies that we hallucinate will often follow a line traced by our eyes in space, and that line is likely to follow a curve which will give arc and spiral character to what is experienced. these {Y} loop with or without trails I personally have not seen full fractal visions (as produced by a computer) in which the tiniest form has the same shape as the containing form ad infinitum, but I have felt like I am in a universe where the microcosmic matches the cosmic and that essentially conforms with the overall experience of fractals.
2. geometries in vision relate to edge detection (2.1), intersections of directional progression (2.2), circular fields (2.3), logarithmic progressions (2.4)
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2.1 edge detection the edge of something seems like the simplest thing to notice but it is actually fairly complex, and we do have visual cortical cells involved that can pick it out and emphasize the finding, passing it to 'higher' centers for 'processing' typically it is the difference between light and dark along a line or linear progression (sequence in space or sequence in time). the linear direction has a feeling, and it's arrangement in space relative to other line and directions creates unique figures that help us find objects in the visual field, a chair, a camera, a glass, a foot, etc. these objects all have characteristic combinations of lines that contribute to the unique motif that most simply denotes the object. in this way sets of line segments in a scalable relationship are fundamental features of forms. Color can also play a part in our rapid perception of figures, but edge detection (light and dark transition arrangements) seem to be most critical in motif abstraction and recognition (resonance) these {X} intensify by layering with or without trails
2.2 intersections of directional progressions where lines meet, nodes form, and each node is a point of interest and possibly concern as a point of origin, a seed, a fractal subunit, an eye, a person etc. these {Y} loop with or without trails
2.3 circular fields when a moving point is anchored to another it will trace a circle, and we are especially attuned to circular forms that pop out of images: flowers, fruits, faces, eyes, and the ends of tubular forms.
some researchers consider that Pareidolia has a neuronal key, and while that could be the detection of circular forms in general, I think it is not neuronal grid configuration like edge detection, but associative, since many of the Pareidolia results are not circular shaped images but formed faces of animals in clouds or insects in shadows etc. Associative impacts are basic in all perception, but a neuronal grid behavior such as edge detection is more basic than curve and circle detection.
Timewise, edges are instantly transformed into motifs for perception while curves and circles are traced producing feelings of trajectory and then perceived secondarily as something in the class of circle arc or spiral.
2.4 logarithmic progressions when y = x^power we describe the curve as logarithmic, as x changes y changes only more so each time, the feeling is accellerative, or decellerative like a soft landing. in any case it is a swooping arc, and it usually is accompanied with some pleasure, as the timing between noticeable points in the progression changes smoothly in one way or another. when we see forms that have this characteristic we feel the feelings of the arcs one way or another which adds to the ominous wonder of anything with a spiral in it. Brain wise i think this has a lot to do with temporal lobe and with the cerebellum so: with hearing, and with our sense of timing and intervals in general.
3. motifs in vision relate to memory and categorization of pattern detection such as facial configurations (3.1), eye motifs (3.2), dangerous animal and insect shapes (3.3), erotic forms (3.4), cultural symbols (3.5). In the previous two sections some parts of perception are hardwired in the sense that some neuron arrangements are being activated to kick off the galaxy of events leading to the hallucinatory experience, but the following are all associative and not wired in, even though they seem extremely fundamental.
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3.1 facial configurations Pareidolia often involves the appearance of faces where there are only the merest of suggestions of a pattern of light and dark. Here I believe our habits of facial recognition kick in and these are general memory events that we normally perform. If we feel vulnerable or excited we tend to look around to see who might be around or who might be watching, and in so doing the shadows fill with cues that can resolve from mists or cracks or sparkles as faces and figures.
3.2 eye motifs are reported fairly universally, and they are wonderful things, as each one represents an entire world of vision outside of our vision. they also easily form when we are concerned how things are going and what others might think if they were watching. I often associate this with paranoia but also with extreme curiosity.
3.3 fearsome nature forms like insect legs and spiders and snakes can easily lunge forth from edge detection mentioned above, although it is also cultural and geographic as to what might be imagined (coming from the subject's memory).
3.4 erotic forms - I would group this culturally with imagery of food and opulence and suspect that the whole reward side of the mind is in play with images in this category.
3.5 cultural symbols such as Christ on the cross, or the seated buddha are also very common in psychedelic states - I regard these as 100% associative events that may be Pareidolia related.
I hope this helps people in some way.
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enzofilo
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Rise against]
#27053787 - 11/23/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Rise against said:
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A lot of people report that they can "see all the molecules" in the air around them while on psychedelics.
I saw this when combining lsd with mushrooms a couple weeks ago. It was pretty wild.
What gets me is that I have seen the same entities in different trips. I find that absolutely mind boggling.
This got my attention. What entities do you mean? Can you explain a little?
Edited by enzofilo (11/23/20 11:20 AM)
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skOsH
Functionally dysfunctional



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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: jdawg333]
#27053798 - 11/23/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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jdawg333 said: Could you maybe elaborate on the random creepy people and black holes stuff sometime? I'd be curious what kind of dose created that and how they made you feel while tripping
Sure. I did take double a dose my buddies took at the time, so I had about 300ug and was blasted. We all went on a walk and even though we had on sunglasses on a bright warm day, it felt like everyone we walked by were glaring at us, though I doubt it. When I split up from them for a bit, I told them I would meet back up with them I just wanted to go explore. At one point a lady was staring at me, and then I looked back at her immediately and she was gone. So I turned all the way around and looked 360degrees. No one was there. Also these weird little black hole looking things formed around things that were toward the side of my vision. If I looked at a particular plant or rock or wall, depending on my angle of looking at it, the "shininess" effect you see if you're on a low dose and looking at a window or puddle of water...was amplified so much that I thought these were windows into other worlds.
Also in terms of molecules, when I am tripping I just notice chromatic aberration on the edges of objects, and this effect undulates. I call it the "sea foam" I see when tripping
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: TheEschatologist] 1
#27053950 - 11/23/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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TheEschatologist said: Has anyone ever figured out why psychedelics makes us see the things we see? Like why are there always certain patterns as opposed to just random chaos/static?
Those patterns are the result of overstimulation of the basic edge/shape/motion detection in your visual processing. It brings the subconscious automatic sense-making processing into visibility. The higher the dose the more you see, and there are thresholds that reliably make it into a sort of trip-o-meter...
Whatever sort of crazy shit you want to think it signifies is of course a matter of personal choice. 
OOPS I see RGV finally answered the question a little ways back
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#27054113 - 11/23/20 02:54 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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haha! there's a few ways to put it, basically psychedelic + brain = magic
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: pineninja]
#27054236 - 11/23/20 04:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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pineninja said:
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OutsideOfMyMind said: Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.
If you seem to discover a maths that was already there and this maths also explains you then it is both. Or If you presume to have discovered a math, then have used it to explain oneself, an admission is needed.
It is sort of like how Christopher Columbus "discovered" America when in actuality he didn't really discover shit. It was just he was the first white man to discover it and that's why it matters so much. Math is more important than discovering America though. I honestly really hate Christopher Columbus Day. Anyway,
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Pu-Erh
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27055818 - 11/24/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Korean Jesus said: Mathematics is discovered, not created
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OutsideOfMyMind said: Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.
I do not think you guys are wrong, but for completions' sake, I would like to add, that some people take the other point of view.
While I can totally agree when we are dealing with pure Math, some times in applications we get, let's call them, man made constructs. Definitely not discovered . And the transition from pure to applied tends to be rather fuzzy.
To bring it down to an example, say something like Time Series Analysis. Given the field's development efforts are geared towards measuring volatility of financial assets, is that discovered or created? Maybe both, I don't know.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Pu-Erh]
#27055973 - 11/24/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Pu-Erh said:
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Korean Jesus said: Mathematics is discovered, not created
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OutsideOfMyMind said: Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.
I do not think you guys are wrong, but for completions' sake, I would like to add, that some people take the other point of view.
While I can totally agree when we are dealing with pure Math, some times in applications we get, let's call them, man made constructs. Definitely not discovered . And the transition from pure to applied tends to be rather fuzzy.
To bring it down to an example, say something like Time Series Analysis. Given the field's development efforts are geared towards measuring volatility of financial assets, is that discovered or created? Maybe both, I don't know.
Finances and money are a HUMAN construct. So I would say that kind of math is created, not discovered. Money and finances are not part of human nature. The use of money is still a brand new concept in comparison to the age of the human species.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27056614 - 11/25/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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numerals and other symbols have been created, but math is a field of relationship pattern discovery that exceeds human scale relations, enabling humans to assess, manage, engineer, and create in the real world.
it starts as a number system for counting and recording, and the relations between those numbers are curious enough that we have developed ways of playing with them such as card dice and roulette games, and dreamy pastimes such as numerology and tarot.
I would love to know more math but plan to learn modern Greek instead, starting tomorrow.
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