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OfflineTheEschatologist
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Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics?
    #27052150 - 11/22/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I was ruminating on this the other day and realised I couldn't come up with a straight answer.

Has anyone ever figured out why psychedelics makes us see the things we see? Like why are there always certain patterns as opposed to just random chaos/static?

Best I could find is it has something to do with the structure of the brain, but it's pretty complicated stuff which gives a sense that there isn't a definitive answer. Interesting how little we really know about our own brains/consciousness!

Here are some fairly esoteric articles on the subject, unless you're a neuroscience/math whiz by any chance:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811920305358

http://www.math.utah.edu/~bresslof/publications/01-1.pdf


Edited by TheEschatologist (11/22/20 12:52 PM)


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OfflineJonBa
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: TheEschatologist] * 1
    #27052172 - 11/22/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

DMT gives me a very strong feeling that I'm seeing something that is just as real as the real world, but is not normally perceivable by the human mind.
Was having some thoughts today while completely high out of my mind on weed that it doesn't have that same feeling, but it still feels like a type of consciousness that is there deliberately.
It's very different from normal consciousness, but there is a continuity of subjective experience that feels like it's meant to be there.

I could just be high as fuck though.


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Life saved by DMT


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OfflineTyperwritermonky
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: JonBa] * 1
    #27052342 - 11/22/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think it mostly is theorized it has to do with either the actual pathways in our brain we are seeing in another way, or that we are seeing the phosphenes that we naturally have (like when you close your eyes and see puddles of gentle colors vaguely) yet on the psychedelic the phosphenes are interpreted differently and we get our CEV.  What accounts for the OEV must just be the fact that we have "inhibitory" neurotransmitters that make us see what we normally interpret reality as.  Once those aren't in control anymore adn the psychedelic is ahold of the receptor, the OEV and visuals come from the brain struggling to still make sense of things.


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Offlinejdawg333
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Typerwritermonky] * 1
    #27052366 - 11/22/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I think psychedelics are very memory related, and a lot of why the world looks solid and predictable and kind of dull while sober is probably just because we're very used to tuning out visual problems and our brains are always correcting things to look dull and still so that we can function better. If psychedelics do gradually make it harder to recall the way we've learned to see the world, then that explains why visual glitches and more movement/strangeness starts to show up relative to dosage- we're forgetting how things are supposed to look, and in a paradoxical sense the picture may be becoming clearer and clearer rather than the other way around.

That's what I think at least. I think this is why music is so mind blowing, as even if we have a vague idea of what's coming it tends to hit me as though I'm hearing the song for the first time and I often still feel surprised. Whereas in sober life the song has probably been compartmentalized and I tend to experience a dull memory whenever I hear it rather than give it a full shot like I did the first time I heard it.

Where do fractals come in? Well I think fractals and kaleidoscope effects start to completely encompass psychedelic trips past a certain point, with variation but they're very common in high dosages. If the memory/seeing the world with baby eyes thing is true, I think fractals and constantly shifting patterns are just a more primitive way our brains interpret the world, especially when we haven't dulled things down for survival yet. There's also the theory that we are seeing nerves/electricity fire in our brains without filtering it out but I'm not a scientist.


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: jdawg333] * 1
    #27052651 - 11/22/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Fractals reflect the logarithimic growth of cells into organisms. A tree puts its leaves out in the same pattern which is the most efficient of patterns and repeated inside all living things. It would only make sense that our optic nerve cells and the photon sensing rods and cones are likewise constructed in this pattern. Pyschedelic haulicinations simply reflect this natural pattern back onto you or maybe it is that the pattern is always been there and your brain has learned to ignore it focusing on the incoming stimuli and pyschedelics allow us to perceive it again.

Or the flip side is that fractals are a human visual representation of geometric mathmatics and therefore reflect the subconscios perceptions of the mathmaticians


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Offlinejomanda1990
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #27052984 - 11/22/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Fractals reflect the logarithimic growth of cells into organisms. A tree puts its leaves out in the same pattern which is the most efficient of patterns and repeated inside all living things. It would only make sense that our optic nerve cells and the photon sensing rods and cones are likewise constructed in this pattern. Pyschedelic haulicinations simply reflect this natural pattern back onto you or maybe it is that the pattern is always been there and your brain has learned to ignore it focusing on the incoming stimuli and pyschedelics allow us to perceive it again.

Or the flip side is that fractals are a human visual representation of geometric mathmatics and therefore reflect the subconscios perceptions of the mathmaticians




I agree with this. Nature is full of fractal patterns at virtually ALL scales. Math seems to be embedded in the very fundamentals of the universe, or maybe even the other way round. It's not surprising our brain connections and consciousness itself would reflect that.

Look up "bifurcation patterns" and "logistic map" (not fractals, btw, but still interesting). There are many great videos on it and how it shows up in so many natural phenomena, it's incredible.


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: jomanda1990]
    #27052998 - 11/22/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

This is what I think. And this is only based on intuition so it could be totally wrong. Psychedelics increase perception in the brain. They put your perception in overdrive. So the things that you see on psychedelics are real things but they can't be perceived with a sober mind. I think the fractals and the kaleidoscopes and the visual snow that most people generally see on psychedelics are actually reflections of photons or something we aren't perceptive of when sober. Reflections of the grid like mathematical matrix that we live in. A lot of people report that they can "see all the molecules" in the air around them while on psychedelics.

The next time you take a psychedelic just stare at a white wall and then stare at a colored wall. You will see much much more colors on the white wall because white is a reflection of all colors and you are actually seeing the reflection of the literal light prism everywhere.


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OfflineRise against
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053186 - 11/22/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A lot of people report that they can "see all the molecules" in the air around them while on psychedelics.




I saw this when combining lsd with mushrooms a couple weeks ago. It was pretty wild.

What gets me is that I have seen the same entities in different trips. I find that absolutely mind boggling.


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OfflineKorean Jesus
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Rise against]
    #27053204 - 11/22/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Mathematics is discovered, not created


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:rastamon::getstoned::rastamon:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Korean Jesus]
    #27053247 - 11/23/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Korean Jesus said:
Mathematics is discovered, not created




Can you explain this in detail?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27053257 - 11/23/20 12:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053260 - 11/23/20 01:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutsideOfMyMind said:
Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.




A simulation of what, and for whom?

What is language and where does that come from?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053261 - 11/23/20 01:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You see, even before there was ever such a thing as drug culture, even this 1950s housewife on 100ug of lsd said that she can "see all of the molecules" and that she can "see the air" and "see all the prisms and dimensions." She is definitely on to something... At the end, she says, " "This is reality."



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053288 - 11/23/20 02:15 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I hope you know I'm not arguing with you or trolling I use the Socratic method to see where people are at lol. :sunny:

I agree with that video and the infamous house wife LSD experiment.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053292 - 11/23/20 02:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's quantum physics. Everything is connected.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053293 - 11/23/20 02:21 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutsideOfMyMind said:
I think it's quantum physics. Everything is connected.




I agree with this assertion as well, my friend.

Non-locality FTW.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind] * 1
    #27053294 - 11/23/20 02:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't perceive you as being argumentative. I have no idea what or who is simulating our reality but it could just be the cosmic higher being or higher knowledge I don't know what the fuck. One time I had a mushroom trip where I could feel and sense the interconnectedness of everything and I understood the math and the physics and everything came together and I realized nothing was real. We are in a program that is coded with the Fibonacci series and other math things. Our brain Hallucinates our conscious reality.


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Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (11/25/20 02:51 AM)


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053302 - 11/23/20 02:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think taking psychedelics gets us in tune with the math and the physics and the coded matrix that we live in.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053304 - 11/23/20 02:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I also had that one.:hahyeahwoo:


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Why do we see fractal or geometric motifs on psychedelics? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
    #27053306 - 11/23/20 02:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OutsideOfMyMind said:
Mathematics is the language of the code that our simulated reality is programmed with. Whether it is discovered or not, it is still there everywhere.




If you seem to discover a maths that was already there and this maths also explains you then it is both.
Or
If you presume to have discovered a math, then have used it to explain oneself, an admission is needed.


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