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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26420720 - 01/07/20 11:21 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Another funny aspect of free will 'discussions' is that they are often taken very seriously, while at the same time, strangely, a very important part of being human is ignored.

Namely that very important life experiences are often precisely those that involve no free will.

How about 'falling in love'?, - which most certainly, quite often effects the rest of a person's life.
....




....The other experiences I picked were of course rarer.

...Buddha however picked the common ones, which we know well, but which we don't want to face. Of course according to his biography/mythology/metaphor, he too wasn't aware of them, till after he was married, ie a young man, and escaped his father's palace.
...These experiences were the seeing of a horribly sick & suffering person (remember this was India, where such sights are common in the streets), a very old and feeble person, and lastly a dead person, (remember this was India, where such sights are common, as folks are cremated in public on the banks of the Ganges River, on top of piles of wood), 
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ganges+river+cremation&iax=images&ia=images ;
and lastly he saw a renunciate/ sadhu
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sahdu&ia=images&iax=images

Thus he decided to become a renunciate, and find a way out of suffering.

....We, like the Buddha, when he was a young Prince before he left the palace, live in a consumer society, (and a very competitive, and individualistic one at that).
So we are constantly bombarded with the message that we can have it all, never get sick, and that possessions and success and will power will save us from suffering.

...And our society like life in the palace hides suffering and death, yet if we look a little more closely, the evidence, of the failure of the pursuit of power, fame, wealth...(or any form of self aggrandizement, including, personal freedom, and blind belief in free will), shows that none of these pursuits is a protection from suffering.

....As this flys in the face of what we want to believe, and this is basically a Christian country, we find far fewer Buddhist monks in The 'West' than in South East Asia, where this sort of philosophy is often taken more seriously, than the idea that "free will", is a crown jewel of our personalities.


--------------------
Hope has never been, an effective way to confront reality.
If it was, Buddha would have sold Hallmark cards.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26420734 - 01/07/20 11:26 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I hate it when you are not allowed to fall in love with whom you happen to fall in love with.

it's so interruptus!!!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26420749 - 01/07/20 11:31 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

Makes for good literature, if one likes that sort of story.


--------------------
Hope has never been, an effective way to confront reality.
If it was, Buddha would have sold Hallmark cards.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26420754 - 01/07/20 11:35 AM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I guess stories generally need conflict.
Only Andy Warhol got away with making totally boring movies, & even he only for a brief period in the 1960s. And of course they had no popular appeal.

"Sleep" had a Running time of 320+ minutes


--------------------
Hope has never been, an effective way to confront reality.
If it was, Buddha would have sold Hallmark cards.



Edited by laughingdog (01/08/20 08:17 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26423475 - 01/08/20 08:15 PM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Another funny aspect of free will 'discussions' is that they are often taken very seriously, while at the same time, strangely, a very important part of being human is ignored.

Namely that very important life experiences are often precisely those that involve no free will.

How about 'falling in love'?, - which most certainly, quite often effects the rest of a person's life.
....




....The other experiences I picked were of course rarer.

...Buddha however picked the common ones, which we know well, but which we don't want to face. Of course according to his biography/mythology/metaphor, he too wasn't aware of them, till after he was married, ie a young man, and escaped his father's palace.
...




see for example, but only if interested:
http://aimwell.org/A%20Discourse%20on%20the%20Anattalakkhana%20Sutta.pdf


--------------------
Hope has never been, an effective way to confront reality.
If it was, Buddha would have sold Hallmark cards.



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OfflineNicodArleone
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Threads from God89]
    #26430521 - 01/13/20 01:17 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

We are all just molecules on a entropic predetermined course.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: NicodArleone]
    #26430525 - 01/13/20 01:23 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Well the individual neurons certainly aren't conscious, anymore than an individual ant or termite knows anything about what they are building.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=giant+african+termite+nests&iax=images&ia=images

I'm reading about 'emergent phenomenon' which may shed some light on the matter.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=emergent+phenomenon&ia=web


--------------------
Hope has never been, an effective way to confront reality.
If it was, Buddha would have sold Hallmark cards.



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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: NicodArleone] * 1
    #26430597 - 01/13/20 02:58 AM (10 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

NicodArleone said:
We are all just molecules on a entropic predetermined course.




Nah. That's just platonic positivist material determinism philosophy shoehorning its claim to be "science", per usual.

The deterministic universe is a rational fallacy so rank, it's embarrassing professionals get paid to perpetuate such a cosmological error.


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OfflineNicodArleone
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26430902 - 01/13/20 10:19 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

What about when fear or other some strong emotion is involved. I have had experiences so strong that I would say that I had no free will.

What about when you are under the effect of a drug like scopolamine.


Edited by NicodArleone (01/13/20 10:34 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: NicodArleone]
    #27046773 - 11/19/20 07:09 AM (6 days, 58 minutes ago)

Hello! I totally forgot about this thread! Sorry for such a late response!

I'd assert that the fact that you can recall that you "had no choice" for a moment in time, is actually proof of its opposite when approached from a rational understanding:

To make the claim, “there is no such thing as free will” is to presuppose a person can actually know truth.

But, again, according to the very argument against free will, itself, there is no such thing as a true thing versus a false thing since every idea is the product of the same deterministic rules. 

When people are not actually free to learn, because their minds are entirely governed by the laws of physics (this includes drugs/chemicals, etc.), then by definition they cannot actually know anything, and here's why: 

To learn is to presuppose a difference between knowing and not knowing, and to presuppose a difference between a good idea (rational, or true) and a bad one (irrational, or false).
 

If there's no such thing as free will (the individual application of perceived knowledge…between a true thing/good thing and a false thing/bad thing, either based upon contextual circumstance or upon foundational philosophical assumptions), and all beliefs and actions are merely a function of brains which are all equally and absolutely governed by mathematical rules, then there can be no difference. 

There can be no real ideas, which means there can be no real thought.  Which means there can be no thought at all.  Which means there can be no consciousness. 

Which means that people can't "truly" claim that free will is an illusion, as though this is some truth that they can actually know, and know as true, and of which they should seek to convince others, as though making the point is anything but a colossal waste of time.

Because you can’t convince people out of an idea that they don’t actually believe, and this because they don’t believe anything, because their contrary thoughts are merely the effects of the same deterministic forces which produced yours (in terms of their model).

Does any of that make any sense or is it just more confusion? LOL.


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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #27046949 - 11/19/20 10:04 AM (5 days, 22 hours ago)

“To make the claim, “there is no such thing as free will” is to presuppose a person can actually know truth.”

The truth isn’t necessarily known.  It’s something created and artistic in nature specifically when in the abstract such as the schism of free will/determinism


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27046974 - 11/19/20 10:34 AM (5 days, 21 hours ago)

truth is what fits best
appropriateness
propriety
suitability
honesty
unfettered
free


--------------------


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27047013 - 11/19/20 10:57 AM (5 days, 21 hours ago)

like it leaves you baby if you don't care for it


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27047014 - 11/19/20 10:57 AM (5 days, 21 hours ago)

suitability and taking care sums it up I think


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27047065 - 11/19/20 11:22 AM (5 days, 20 hours ago)

a true garden keeper!


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27047243 - 11/19/20 01:06 PM (5 days, 19 hours ago)

good...

good for me...

in other news: be of high quality and be succeeding and efficient and doing well

and be innocent

about sums it up


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27047265 - 11/19/20 01:20 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

and that (a true garden keeper) leads to good things
so do good things

some of them can be accomplished by drawing


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27047269 - 11/19/20 01:23 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

and bad things are bad because they lead to bad things
and how they are part of behaviour
how they are to a set of behaviour
daily and on a continual basis
as in I don't have it as good if I am being attacked with a knife


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...?l [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27047275 - 11/19/20 01:26 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

the more good things there are
and the better they are
and the more good things there are about the self
the better it goes
and the more progress


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #27051441 - 11/22/20 02:56 AM (3 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
“To make the claim, “there is no such thing as free will” is to presuppose a person can actually know truth.”

The truth isn’t necessarily known.  It’s something created and artistic in nature specifically when in the abstract such as the schism of free will/determinism




If Truth can't be known, then everything humans assume about physical science has to also be conceded as a "best guess" with no anchoring in ontological reality.

I'd argue Truth, as best as it can be understood, made useful, and applied to human beings on this level of consciousness, is whatever's left over after contradiction has been eliminated from the equation.

Exactly like sifting for gold.

Sherlock Holmes method. Whatever is left after contradiction has been eliminated, must be Truth regardless of how improbable, unpopular, or unbelievable it may appear to be.


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