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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Murphy's Law
#27049560 - 11/20/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's an easy law to disregard, not directly related to physics. But is it true, and thus worthy of philosophical consideration?
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"
If only we knew the pitfalls of the heart, we could build a more fool proof system.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (11/20/20 09:15 PM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27049770 - 11/21/20 01:13 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Anything you can perceive, you will perceive, and probably imbue it with energy unconsciously, and bias probability of circumstance in/out of your favor without realizing it."
My take.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
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I agree, once I take over something - it's my responsibility, if I skip part of my duty then, Murphy is in charge. ouch!
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I agree, once I take over something - it's my responsibility, if I skip part of my duty then, Murphy is in charge. ouch!
I'd argue there is only choosing, or choice of perception. To go passive is to choose to not choose intentionally, which is an intention in itself, and therefore still a choice.
Inescapable. All that shifts is your perception and depth of focus.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
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custody
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Yellow Pants


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If expectation and performance are out of line where expectation is demanding more and performance is lacking then the world oneself whatever there is will coordinate demise
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Malkuthian
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I agree completely with:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I agree, once I take over something - it's my responsibility, if I skip part of my duty then, Murphy is in charge. ouch!
We are responsible for ourselves.
And also: if you "go with the flow", that which "goes wrong" might become what's right. Suck on that Murphy.
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laughingdog
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27057545 - 11/25/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: It's an easy law to disregard, not directly related to physics. But is it true, and thus worthy of philosophical consideration?
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"
If only we knew the pitfalls of the heart, we could build a more fool proof system.
The point (of Murphy) is that no amount of planning is ever fool proof.
"Failure to plan, is planning to fail", is common wisdom, but also
“No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.” ― Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
General Eisenhower, combined the 2 views. "The details of a plan which was designed years in advance are often incorrect, but the planning process demands the thorough exploration of options and contingences. The knowledge gained during this probing is crucial to the selection of appropriate actions as future events unfold." more at https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/18/planning/
So no its not a law, but is a hint to avoid arrogance, which if we look at nuclear power plant disasters, it is obvious humans have failed to heed this good advice. Long before Murphy, the ancient Greeks, considered arrogance one of, or the worst, human fault.
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Loaded Shaman
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Quote:
Malkuthian said: I agree completely with:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I agree, once I take over something - it's my responsibility, if I skip part of my duty then, Murphy is in charge. ouch!
We are responsible for ourselves.
And also: if you "go with the flow", that which "goes wrong" might become what's right. Suck on that Murphy.
Which leads back to my argument that reality is a matter of choice of perception FIRST.
Murphy then moves from law, to opinion, where it rightfully belongs.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Rahz
Alive Again



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It is a hint to avoid arrogance,double check everything, consider more, get a second opinion, and yet even them Murphy's Law still applies because we only know what we know. If something can go wrong, it will. Hindsight is 20/20.
But isn't there a time to throw caution to the wind, lest we never do anything out of fear something will go wrong?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz] 1
#27059241 - 11/26/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes, and Murphy time is not always bad, so lay all the cards down and take some Murphy for a ride.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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I say it is a law. Entropy in action, only god's elect survive the process by wing and prayer.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Malkuthian
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I say it is a law. Entropy in action, only god's elect survive the process by wing and prayer.
Entropy means chaos. Murphy law states that is something will go wrong it will. If something is predestined to have a specific outcome, it's clearly not chaos but rather complete predictability: the complete opposite of chaos.
Or please explain how Murphy's law is entropy in actions.
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skOsH
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I think Murphy's Law is just a result of a cascade of reactionary societal events. I guess it could be considered chaos that occurs, and it is my opinion that Murphy's Law only exists in so far as shit happens, and when something goes wrong, your consciousness is thrown off, and so you try to control the conditions around you even more and as a result of trying harder over something you have almost no control over, you perceive a bunch of things going wrong. Also it could relate to the butterfly effect but for society. Things go wrong, people are thrown for a loop, and when they try to compensate they're actively going against the general flow of things
Maybe that glass you dropped on the floor was already destined to fall on the floor, and therefore there was nothing you could do...that's just an example, of something I am sure we have all done--dropped something that broke.
Sometimes, reality is weird. For instance I put on a crystal necklace for the first time right after I bought it and it shattered even though it was a solid crystal. It just shattered right off the chain after being put on with a force of 0.00001N or something
Life is unpredictable, in a universe where things are more predictable
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Quote:
Malkuthian said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said: I say it is a law. Entropy in action, only god's elect survive the process by wing and prayer.
Entropy means chaos. Murphy law states that is something will go wrong it will. If something is predestined to have a specific outcome, it's clearly not chaos but rather complete predictability: the complete opposite of chaos.
Or please explain how Murphy's law is entropy in actions.
I guess to me moving from order to chaos means moving from good to bad. Like disintergration. Like the old hindu myths of the yugas.
Things certainly don't seem to be trending towards becoming more harmonised and unified.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Malkuthian
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So basically you just wanted to use cool words? Try focusing on the essence instead of the surface.
And chaos is not equivalent with bad, nor is order equivalent with good...
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redgreenvines
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I hear butterflies farting all over the place when I drop a glass on the floor. but it's rare. Murphy I guess.
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Grapefruit
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You take that back mate, I'm a very precise scientist.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Malkuthian
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"I say it is a law. Entropy in action"
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Grapefruit
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-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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BrendanFlock
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The idea of Murphys law is true and valid..
But how far you should or want to extend is up to you..
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27066202 - 12/01/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"
This can only be possible for people who believe something can "go wrong".
I believe we are the only species on Earth that engages in such wild fantasy.
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laughingdog
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. A more interesting question might be to ask oneself how Murphy's law, compares with both Buddha's first noble truth, and the idea of entropy. But that would require more effort than just voicing an opinion.
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redgreenvines
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without clinging, all 3 noble declarations have their merits, but Entropy the 3rd one seems to drive the changes that the Buddha points out are suffer-able, while Murphy just wants to photo-bomb every angle.
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Rahz
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: This can only be possible for people who believe something can "go wrong".
I believe we are the only species on Earth that engages in such wild fantasy.
I suspect many animals find certain happenings undesirable. To what degree they retrospect is less certain.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27066739 - 12/01/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
I suspect many animals find certain happenings undesirable. To what degree they retrospect is less certain.
I agree. But I suspect humans uniquely promote and cultivate additional suffering by elevating undesirable experiences to the status of being "wrong". It's like our obsessive nature of labeling certain things as "problems".
This is a fun practice that I use a lot. Whenever I'm tempted to conclude something has "gone wrong" I say instead, "Something unexpected has happened." I always laugh. When our desires are not fulfilled, we often conclude something is "wrong" or a "problem".
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Rahz
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Well, hard to laugh about some things. I do agree humans make many of their own problems, and often make problems worse by thinking of them as problems.
The law could also be stated, anything that can happen will happen.
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pur3bind
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27067373 - 12/01/20 10:58 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know that I'm very sensitive to the dualities of life.
And also, when you are in relative terms- 'sober', your sober and waking consciousness overshadow one another. This can make navigating creativity or common life choices more tricky, because you are navigating between two states of personality.
-------------------- "There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)
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laughingdog
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Rahz & Tubs etc.
. "Wrong" has 2 different meanings that are confused here.
1) One meaning is when a battle is lost in war, from this perspective something definitely went wrong!
2) The other meaning has to do with personal preferences, & like and dislike, and creating beliefs.
. Murphy's 'law' refers to the first meaning.
. Murphy was not alone in pointing out that anything worthwhile, will necessitate struggle at some point. And that being aware of this, may definitely make a big difference. Many stories are mainly about this fact of life, as it is considered, something kids need to learn. (for example the movie "Rocky", but there are hundreds of such stories). And basic training in the military is precisely about developing the balls to deal with shit.
for example: http://wisdomthroughaction.com/home.html and https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gurdjieff%2C+obstacles&t=h_&ia=web&iai=r1-4&page=1&adx=shv1b&sexp=%7B%22prodexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prdsdexp%22%3A%22c%22%2C%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22msvrtexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22shv1%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22shvflt%22%3A%22b%22%7D
Edited by laughingdog (12/01/20 11:56 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27067563 - 12/02/20 05:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: ...
The law could also be stated, anything that can happen will happen.
might, not will, it is for the might, that we take precautions, if anything will happen then we should arrange a different approach altogether.
we make allowances for what might happen and take it very seriously, but without paranoia.
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Rahz
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Ahh, but that is the crux of Murphy's law. If something doesn't happen then it couldn't have happened. If something does happen it's because it could. There is no might except in our minds.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27067750 - 12/02/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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then it's only about what happened, not what will or might or could. Murphy is history oriented, not future minded, but we plan for our legacy and that's why Murph gets a place at the table.
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Ferdinando


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you have to fix everything you come into contact with for this meditation and the best priorities possible is imprtant
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Rahz
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: then it's only about what happened, not what will or might or could. Murphy is history oriented, not future minded, but we plan for our legacy and that's why Murph gets a place at the table.
I suppose that could lead into a discussion on causality, fate, free will and determination.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Yellow Pants


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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27068092 - 12/02/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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If what does happen is only what could happen then what could happen is what will happen. That sounds like causality and fate. But if I am eternally understood then I spark cause myself that is not an effect from something else. Since being is absolute I am the first cause. I think this is the leverage for free will.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27068096 - 12/02/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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they could also be guests, such long standing members of pre-modern era thinking. Gutenberg and McCluhan should attend too, as part of the beginning of the end. a table of ghosts and ideas.
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The Mycologist
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27068127 - 12/02/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anything that can happen, will happen
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass

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Rahz
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: If what does happen is only what could happen then what could happen is what will happen. That sounds like causality and fate. But if I am eternally understood then I spark cause myself that is not an effect from something else. Since being is absolute I am the first cause. I think this is the leverage for free will.
I tend to see myself, being, as part of a causeless dance.
Yet I do see the logic in causality. I think the only monkey wrench in the idea of fate is a type of randomness that occurs at the quantum level. This would prevent Murphy's law from being what can happen will happen in any strict sense. The butterfly effect of that monkey wrench could have big implications especially if quantum mechanics affects the workings of the brain which I suspect is so.
I'm just playing devil's advocate in suggesting what can happen will happen. What can happen might happen.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27068330 - 12/02/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are many "Murphy's Laws" http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-laws.html/ and as you can see folks feel free to add to them
They are all meant to combine humor with the fact that "shit happens" which is the short bumper sticker version. It's called putting sugar in the medicine, or sugar coating, a bitter pill.
I have a new Murphy's Law: Any discussion on the internet of "Murphy's Laws" will turn into something pretty humorless, removing the saving grace of the 'original (s)', which the average person easily understands instantly, anyway.
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Rahz
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The point of this thread was to take a serious look at Murphy's law... lighten up
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
laughingdog said: There are many "Murphy's Laws" http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-laws.html/ and as you can see folks feel free to add to them
They are all meant to combine humor with the fact that "shit happens" which is the short bumper sticker version. It's called putting sugar in the medicine, or sugar coating, a bitter pill.
I have a new Murphy's Law: Any discussion on the internet of "Murphy's Laws" will turn into something pretty humorless, removing the saving grace of the 'original (s)', which the average person easily understands instantly, anyway.
please everyone go to the site it is amazing the kinds of conversations Murphy is enjoying. each one better than the previous.
the only thing that can go wrong is not reading the list
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BrendanFlock
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So is Murphys law just thermodynamics?
The knowledge of decay?
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skOsH
Functionally dysfunctional



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Murphy's Law is basically the "worst outcome" of entropy increasing in the eyes of the person experiencing it.
It could just as easily increase and look more ordered, entropy increasing means that whatever is happening to the system keeps changing...towards chaos.
If entropy made everything more ordered, it wouldn't increase, and Murphy's Law would therefore not apply. Physics says entropy has to always increase, but that does not mean it always increases towards chaos. In some regions of the universe, entropy barely increases, stays the same, and can actually decrease, but total entropy of a system or the universe must always increase.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: skOsH]
#27074443 - 12/06/20 12:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Question is?
Why does thermodynamics exist?
Because of thought compulsion I can understand murphys law..
It is hard to just seperate something from the consciousness..
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Malkuthian
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As stated previously, Murphy's law suggest complete predictability. And that an outcome is bad for you personally, has nothing to do with entropy vs order... So why are you guys bringing entropy into this?
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redgreenvines
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it's not a law, it's just attitude that acknowledges an imagined limitation against success.
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Malkuthian
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It's just humor, it was never intended to be interpreted seriously. But if viewed from a philosophical perspective I agree with you, it would act as a limiter for potential and as such should be ignored.
But regardless if it's viewed as an attitude or a law, it's still suggest complete predictability. So I don't get the entropy thing...
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Rahz
Alive Again



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It's not a law and the humor is intended, but there is indeed a principle at play which probably should not be ignored.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27074783 - 12/06/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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you mean like zero (the placeholder)?
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Rahz
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Not sure if you were replying to me, but the idea is actually older than Mr. Murphy.
From Wikipedia:
"It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later" Alfred Holt - 1877
"The first experiment already illustrates a truth of the theory, well confirmed by practice, what-ever can happen will happen if we make trials enough." Augustus De Morgan - 1866
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27075476 - 12/06/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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but after that completion of things that could go wrong. something else eventually does, so all it means is nothing: bad stuff happens do your best anyway
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Rahz
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Best practice is preventative medicine. We're only going to do as good as we can do, but fail safes are a good idea, especially with things like nuclear power plants. Not building them at sea level on a coastline that might experience a tsunami is also best practice.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Murphy's Law [Re: Rahz]
#27076010 - 12/06/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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not building them would be better practice
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Rahz
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Touche
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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RJ Tubs 202



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I suspect many people continue to gamble at casinos assuming eventually something good will happen.
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BrendanFlock
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Maybe the idea is if you don't plan for everything then something will go wrong?
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laughingdog
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One can restate the idea, if one wants, so that entropy is included:
'The more fiddly a mechanism, the more easily / likely, repairs will be necessary.'
also
And as we all already know, so its hard to debate: 'Buy a Cadillac or Mercedes-Benz and the repairs & parts will cost more. It might, last longer, but you better have some extra bucks to start with.'
. Which brings up why it is that insurance companies make money. Do people ever have to, have heard of Murphy, to want to buy it? If not, why is the notion of shit happening, even debatable? And also if God is so great why is insurance necessary? . Atheist insurance agents, must smile to themselves, on the way home in their cars, every time they pocket a nice commission from a church or minister - who knows maybe they go home and bow down to one of those funny posters of Murphy's laws? . Of course one must realize as an afterthought, that instead of debating, insurance agents, turn Murphy on his head, and turn Murphy into profit. Truly smart folks, some of those capitalist guys.
Edited by laughingdog (12/07/20 07:56 PM)
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RJ Tubs 202



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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Maybe the idea is if you don't plan for everything then something will go wrong?
Or, even if you believe you've planned for everything, unexpected events will likely occur.
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BrendanFlock
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So a plan is a loose projection then?
Can we call that slack>?
And analyze via math to the correct nature of its square root..[66] 556
MESSENGERS ARE PART OF THIS SLACK..INFACT THEY DELIVER ITS EVERY POSITION.
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RJ Tubs 202



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I'd say a plan is an attempt to fulfil a particular desire.
Of course when we don't get what we want, we call it "wrong".
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BrendanFlock
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The lack which is constricted from order..the ideation of purest placement of a thing..or its higher purpose inside and out of the Time God of Time! \Thoth..
exit unity..and then determine your own design on your universe...7th cosm!
Energy check [point] dot is a da'at..the idea of needing to attribute time to things..it is a check and point balance..of the Will of God vs The Will of the Devil!
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BrendanFlock
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: I'd say a plan is an attempt to fulfill a particular desire.
Of course when we don't get what we want, we call it "wrong".
What about schizophrenics or people with mental disorders that can not help but have very negative thoughts.. obsessive compulsive disorder?
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BrendanFlock
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Murphys law says there will be a very little portion of a percentage that there will be insane people..both Woman and Man... People who don't come to terms with the world. Needs are necrotizing en corp por...em guarde!
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
I'd say a plan is an attempt to fulfill a particular desire.
Of course when we don't get what we want, we call it "wrong".
What about schizophrenics or people with mental disorders that can not help but have very negative thoughts.. obsessive compulsive disorder?
I believe experiencing negative critical thoughts is part of being human. Who doesn't? I think it's an adaptive evolutionary trait we all experience in various degrees. We are so in love with calling things "mental illness" we forget it's all simply a reflection of variation on the bell curve.
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BrendanFlock
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Can one adopt to form a plan about controlling or understanding the forces motivating you to do things!?
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Malkuthian
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Today I dropped my sandwich and it landed on the butter side.
Should I blame Murphy?
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BrendanFlock
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Ultimately Yes...
The right and wrong.. the better and lesser..the same and different..all these oppositions are just places and states of being.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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are you promoting dualism here?
finding a right and a wrong works differently than finding something suitable. in the case of suitability, the pretext of rightness and wrongness is skipped, anything is a candidate, but the best fit wins.
this is more natural than right and wrong, and it does not leave unselected items in the wrong bunch, or selected items in the right bunch. next time it could go the other way.
suitability leaves no taint.
I would say forget right and wrong.
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CountHTML
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Murphy’s law is qualitatively real. I think it has to do with one’s emotional state and being prone to annoyance with things superfluous to us when we’re in a positive state of mind. Confirmation bias, etc.
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