|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Moisture in all my jars... Wtf
#27040843 - 11/15/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Boys and girls,
Long time no see. After lots of success and pounds of mushrooms grown, I took a little break. I thought I had mastered mushroom cultivation. The agar was beautiful, the liquid cultures clean as could be, the oats were bone dry, and the mushrooms were sky high. I took the abundance for granted.
I bought a new place, took a break from growing and everything was paused. Since moving into this new place, I have had the most god awful luck growing. For starters, my agar has become contaminated at a much higher rate. Tends to be cobweb type mold that comes in from the edges. I used to maybe lose 1 out of every 10 plates, where I now lose 4-5/10. I can only assume there is more mold in this place? My SAB tek and sterilization is just as good or better as it previously was.
So nonetheless, I managed to get some clean plates with several transfers. As I had done previously, once the clean plates were grown out, I put the smallest pieces of agar into liquid cultures per mushboy's tek. A tek I had done countless times with no problem. I made three liquid cultures with my first batch of plates in the new place. I let the cultures grow. I poured when ready, saw nice myc growing in all my jars, and then days after shaking the jars, moisture took over.
I repeated the whole process, used probably 40 plates, got more clean ones, and made five liquid cultures. I let them grow, I poured them into bone dry oat jars, watched the myc grown, then a day after shaking, I have moisture in all my jars. So I am at a loss. I am quite disappointed and confused why I have had terrible luck here.
But ChardRich does not throw in the towel. I just ordered a $1000 laminar flow hood from phenominal phungi, 500 petri dishes and new spore prints.
As far as the moisture goes, I can only assume my problem is bacteria (no evidence on any plates), or temp fluctuations, my new place is not a very constant temp and it's been cold here. Any input would be really appreciated.
--------------------
Edited by ChardRich (11/15/20 04:07 PM)
|
Hikeadellic
Fungi Fan



Registered: 08/31/20
Posts: 1,227
Loc: Appalachian Trail
Last seen: 9 hours, 40 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27040882 - 11/15/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Make temps better, I've heard that frequently fluxuating temps promote bacteria
Is there a carpet in your new sab room? I think carpeted rooms have higher contam rates
Bigger room or smaller room? Airflow? Could the air system in the new place be less suitable for growing?
Still venting the PC? 90 mins @15psi
Are you sure that moisture after shaking is a super bad thing?
Maybe look into improving jar filter lids
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Hikeadellic]
#27040911 - 11/15/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, I can stabilize the temps.
90 min is too short. You need to go 120 to kill endospores.
Carpet in new SAB room, yes. I used to do it in my huge bathroom which I could clean perfectly before using.
Jar lids are fine, because I have let the jars sit un-inoculated with no contam.
Moisture like that means it's fucked (from lots of experience)
--------------------
|
A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,782
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 1 hour, 21 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27040919 - 11/15/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
It’s normal to see some moisture the first few days especially with temp swings.
--------------------
LAGM2020     
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: A.k.a]
#27040939 - 11/15/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
See, I find that really interesting. I have seen some of Bod's early posts where he has jars with tons of moisture and to me, I think, oh, those are fucked, but then he grows these giant monos with them and the flushes are amazing, so maybe I am too quick to jump the gun with assuming they're fucked.
Do you have a flow hood, AKA?
The only successful grows I have had are when there is basically no moisture in the jars.
--------------------
Edited by ChardRich (11/15/20 05:06 PM)
|
Hikeadellic
Fungi Fan



Registered: 08/31/20
Posts: 1,227
Loc: Appalachian Trail
Last seen: 9 hours, 40 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27041020 - 11/15/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I thought that when you soak your grain, the endospores come out of their shell and are vulnerable to 90min@15psi?
What is your grain prep method?
I think that moisture you are seeing is condensation from the temp swings
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Hikeadellic] 1
#27041032 - 11/15/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
No, 120 is the consensus for killing endospores.
Boil for 20 min, set out on tray overnight with fan to get them bone dry, throw in PC next day,
--------------------
|
sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27041618 - 11/16/20 05:25 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
There is no problem with seeing a little moisture in jars. The pic of the jar looks just fine.
|
Inthepit
Aum Mani Padme Hum



Registered: 08/20/19
Posts: 1,742
Loc: Puerto Rico
Last seen: 12 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27041645 - 11/16/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChardRich said: Boil for 20 min, set out on tray overnight with fan to get them bone dry, throw in PC next day,
Well you sound pretty set on "bone dry" but, if you've been gone for awhile, you might want to check these out.
EAT’S EASY OAT PREP™ Crackatoa's easy oats Works great!
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27051291 - 11/21/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|



Well, I would have considered these jars full of bacteria not too long ago, but hopefully I am wrong. Any thoughts on how it looks?
--------------------
|
TheBoJim
Strangest


Registered: 07/23/20
Posts: 449
Last seen: 10 months, 8 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27051325 - 11/21/20 11:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Have you grown out any of these “wet” jars?
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: TheBoJim]
#27051328 - 11/21/20 11:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Nope, couple are almost ready to spawn, so I guess we shall see.
--------------------
|
coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich] 1
#27051382 - 11/22/20 12:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Yolo those bad boys into a sub and see what happens!
I spent ages looking for the gif of the guy drinking fromthe can that said science but for whatever reason couldn't find it so you're just have to imagine that it's at the bottom of this post.
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27051450 - 11/22/20 02:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChardRich said:



Well, I would have considered these jars full of bacteria not too long ago, but hopefully I am wrong. Any thoughts on how it looks?
They don't look good to me. I could be wrong but I think it's only a matter of time and another shake for bacteria to show its ugly face.
I would switch grains. You have to remove variables and possible vectors one at a time and a grain switch is usually a good place to start.
Edited by Josex (11/22/20 07:21 AM)
|
sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27051460 - 11/22/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
They look just fine to me. Grew many mushrooms with jars that look just like that.
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: sandman420]
#27051466 - 11/22/20 03:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't doubt you could grow mushrooms from spawn like that, but I personally would not call it fine.
That type of condensation is a bit suspect, makes me think something's brewing and generating extra heat.
Myc doesn't look particularly bad or stressed right now but maybe it will if given enough time. I'd shake those jars at 100% to let them tell the tale.
|
smalltalk_canceled
Babnik


Registered: 07/13/20
Posts: 2,862
Last seen: 12 days, 7 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27051515 - 11/22/20 05:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
|
There's nothing wrong with those jars. Condensation like that is mostly due to temperature fluctuations. Bring them to 74F+ and watch all that disappear; drop it back down to 65F or so and you'll see it again. Initially it's just escaping from the hydrated grain, later it's also from mycelium respiration.
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27052103 - 11/22/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Josex said: I don't doubt you could grow mushrooms from spawn like that, but I personally would not call it fine.
That type of condensation is a bit suspect, makes me think something's brewing and generating extra heat.
Myc doesn't look particularly bad or stressed right now but maybe it will if given enough time. I'd shake those jars at 100% to let them tell the tale.
See, I thought this too, and you very well may be right. Although, I went back and looked at Bod's oat prep tek guide to look at his jars. They are all as wet or more wet as mine, and he got awesome flushes. I don't think it's the grains at all. I prep them perfectly and let them sit through the same temp fluctuations before I inoculate them and there is almost no moisture, it's just when the myc is added.
I will say, when I have done my biggest grows, it was summer/spring so the temps were consistently between 70-82, it's cold up here, so the temps have been between 65-72. When the temps were higher, there was no moisture, and all my teks were identical.
I will spawn them in the next couple days and give progress updates because I am very curious to see what they grow. I should say I made 5 LC's with a few different clean plates, and they all are producing the exact same moisture content in the jars.
--------------------
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 4 hours, 22 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27052861 - 11/22/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I will say, when I have done my biggest grows, it was summer/spring so the temps were consistently between 70-82, it's cold up here, so the temps have been between 65-72. When the temps were higher, there was no moisture, and all my teks were identical.
The amount of condensation will vary depending on the temperature difference inside and outside the jar. The mycelium starts produce a significant amount of heat as it grows so it's normal to start seeing it as jar becomes colonized.
--------------------
|
Tomato_tuhmahto
Stranger

Registered: 10/14/20
Posts: 19
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Kizzle]
#27053168 - 11/22/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Those jars are fine imo
--------------------
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
|
Well, I was so close. I had five LCs and so far, the spawn from three of them has made it about 2 weeks into colonization of substrate before producing trich 
This is so infuriating. I have grain prep down to a t. Perfect moisture content and I leave them out for a week or so sometimes to make sure they are clean.
These LCs are from agar plates I cut 4 times to ensure clean myc.

This is the tub from the last jar I posted pics of. Two weeks into spawning, no signs of any mold, and then bam, a week before frutuing when the pins have just formed the trich hits. Third tub from three out of 5 lcs has gone bad. I assume it's on a matter of time before the next two show trich.
What's going on here??
--------------------
Edited by ChardRich (12/06/20 11:58 PM)
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27076364 - 12/06/20 11:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thank god the flow hood I ordered comes in the next few weeks.
--------------------
|
Shroomoisseur
Professional Cucker

Registered: 11/16/20
Posts: 138
Last seen: 11 months, 15 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27076391 - 12/07/20 12:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Substrate it seems, if you culture is clean and grain is clean then what’s left?
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
|
Dirty spawn. I asked the question, but I guess I knew better. Coir is contam resistant and won't harbor the trich. The dirty spawn will. That's why I never used to spawn wet jars!!
--------------------
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27076446 - 12/07/20 01:49 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ChardRich said:
These LCs are from agar plates I cut 4 times to ensure clean myc.
Making clean inoculant is the easy part of this hobby, by far. I'd wager your LC's were clean. A contaminated LC would have shown clear signs shortly after inoculating those oats.
Quote:
ChardRich said: Thank god the flow hood I ordered comes in the next few weeks.
If your problem is what I think it is, a FH is going to do nothing.
I think what's giving you those problems is the grain itself. There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27076914 - 12/07/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
If I had to guess I'd say the culprit is probably your environment and/or coir or coir preparation. Endospores are produced by bacteria, you seem to have a mold problem.
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27076927 - 12/07/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Bacteria weakens the colony and allows mold to get a foothold. Mold problems are usually caused by bacterial spawn.
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27076989 - 12/07/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That could be; I'm just thinking that following sterilization of the grains and during the whole incubation period it didn't show evidence of bacterial contamination. If it is a problem with bacteria in this case the latency is really long, which makes me think the problem came after that.
|
Marxcelium
Mushroom Instrumentality Project

Registered: 05/12/20
Posts: 127
Loc: The Tharsis Bulge
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27077138 - 12/07/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah, man, switch up your grains and see how that goes. I was having very similar issues with oats, but wheat has been a dream since I made the change.
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27077175 - 12/07/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I would agree it has to bacteria allowing a path for the mold. How could the grains be the problem? I let them sit un-inocluated with no growth of any type of mold, and there is no mold during colonization of the grain.
That's why the whole point of this thread was my skepticism of the moisture in the jars, which to me, indicated bacteria.
--------------------
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27077231 - 12/07/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Nobody said anything about mold in your jars.
Quote:
ChardRich said:
I would agree it has to bacteria allowing a path for the mold.
This is what's all about. If you spawn iffy bacterial jars chances are you're going to see mold at some point.
You do what you want to do man, it's your grow. Just saying sometimes when you hit a wall, switching grains can make a hell of a difference. Working on your prep is also very important.
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27077423 - 12/07/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I just doubt it's the grains. All my successful grows came from this exact grain prep, and I make sure they are as dry as can be before inoculating. Do rusty lids make any difference?
--------------------
|
mcnugget
Stranger


Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 260
Last seen: 1 month, 17 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich] 1
#27077664 - 12/07/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Try sterilizing your next batch for 3 hours.
--------------------
|
Sunny Skies
Cluster Head


Registered: 05/03/17
Posts: 421
Loc: my house
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: mcnugget]
#27078288 - 12/08/20 07:11 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Try Foomans WBS tek with 1 bag of seed..you never know? have never had an issue and the seed is wet when loaded into the jars.
|
TheBoJim
Strangest


Registered: 07/23/20
Posts: 449
Last seen: 10 months, 8 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27079260 - 12/08/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Josex said:
Quote:
ChardRich said:
These LCs are from agar plates I cut 4 times to ensure clean myc.
Making clean inoculant is the easy part of this hobby, by far. I'd wager your LC's were clean. A contaminated LC would have shown clear signs shortly after inoculating those oats.
Quote:
ChardRich said: Thank god the flow hood I ordered comes in the next few weeks.
If your problem is what I think it is, a FH is going to do nothing.
I think what's giving you those problems is the grain itself. There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
what makes a batch of grain bad?
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27079339 - 12/08/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
|
Failboat
Fuck Up
Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27079345 - 12/08/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Kizzle explained the condensation in your jars. Those are pretty much perfect. That is how oats should look, and the moisture is irrelevant in this case
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat]
#27079821 - 12/09/20 02:07 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Kizzle explained the condensation in your jars. Those are pretty much perfect. That is how oats should look, and the moisture is irrelevant in this case
Fast forward 2 weeks, he spawned them and got mold from those perfect jars. Not making that up, you can read it here, if you have the time...
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27079825 - 12/09/20 02:26 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
First off, I want to make it clear that I'm not even sure that's OP's problem. Just brought up the subject of surviving endos as a possibility.
You guys living in the USA? Are just spoiled seriously. The quality of the grain you have there is just top-notch. You can get seed quality grain easily if you want but the feed grade you have there is also very good. Where I live I can only get the worst shit imaginable, not exaggerating one bit. That's how you get to know what shit grain can do for ya. The slightest fuck up in the prep or an insufficient cycle of just 2 hours and I can expect bacteria. I've had so many instances where it was obvious bacterial spores did survive the PC that I could write a book.
Nonetheless, if you've been here on this forum long enough you get to know instances where even very well known cultivators experienced something like this at some point too.
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex]
#27079834 - 12/09/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Josex said:
Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10 years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
First off, I want to make it clear that I'm not even sure that's OP's problem. Just brought up the subject of surviving endos as a possibility.
You guys living in the USA? Are just spoiled seriously. The quality of the grain you have there is just top-notch. You can get seed quality grain easily if you want but the feed grade you have there is also very good. Where I live I can only get the worst shit imaginable, not exaggerating one bit. That's how you get to know what shit grain can do for ya. The slightest fuck up in the prep or an insufficient cycle of just 2 hours and I can expect bacteria. I've had so many instances where it was obvious bacterial spores did survive the PC that I could write a book.
Nonetheless, if you've been here on this forum long enough you get to know instances where even very well known cultivators experienced something like this at some point too.
I get it, and my turn will probably come too the more I do it. All I'm trying to point out is that the kind of endospores we see in grains are not some sort of alien super entity that will be just chilling at 121C . They die pretty easy as long as the heat reaches them. For example, grain soak/simmer water used for agar and/or LC doesn't get bacteria from endospores as easily as grain spawn, even though the liquid coming outta the grain is full of it. It's just the whole agar mix or LC reaches the temperature and 20 mins is enough to kill it at 121C .
I probably haven't come across a really shitty grain like you're describing but the key in my opinion is to have it fully hydrated before going to the autoclave so that heat is transferred deep inside each grain. Dry grains are key to contamination.
|
ChardRich
chardzard



Registered: 04/16/19
Posts: 1,167
Loc: Upper Left USA
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat]
#27080464 - 12/09/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Kizzle explained the condensation in your jars. Those are pretty much perfect. That is how oats should look, and the moisture is irrelevant in this case
I would love to believe that, in fact, against my better judgement, I tried to spawn jars from all 5 LCs I had. That level of moisture always meant bacteria in my experience. I tried, and trich in all five 2 weeks later
--------------------
|
Failboat
Fuck Up
Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: ChardRich]
#27081347 - 12/09/20 11:24 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The jars smelled fine? Did you mix the spawn? Did you test the LCs? Wet sub will certainly exacerbate any small contaminations present. Could this be a perfect storm kind of situation.
Minimal bacteria should cause minimal trouble and those jars didn't seem to be ice creamy nor were the grains wet and uncolonized it that telltale fashion. What did they look like before you spawned em? 100% or ~99%.
|
sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat] 1
#27084675 - 12/11/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
2 weeks to trich is not dirty spawn. 2 weeks to trich is dirty prep of substrate.
As in you are dirty take a shower...Or your room is really dirty. Or your pasteurization or whatever is wack. Or your tubs are dirty and not sanitized well. Something like this takes 2 weeks to show.
Dirty spawn will not take 2 weeks to show nasty when spawned. Dirty spawn will either do nothing and stall out (bacteria) or show quickly (molds) and spread fast IMO.
Your little specks of moisture had nothing to do with your failure IMO. You should look elsewhere for the cause.
Edited by sandman420 (12/11/20 09:04 PM)
|
Failboat
Fuck Up
Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: sandman420] 1
#27084787 - 12/11/20 09:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Failboat] 1
#27084788 - 12/11/20 09:55 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
sh4d0ws
LSx


Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Josex] 1
#27084796 - 12/11/20 10:18 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
|
Egohst
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/20
Posts: 20
Loc: God’s Palm
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: sh4d0ws]
#27084901 - 12/12/20 12:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I use Sorgum for all my mushrooms. Right now Cordyceps, reishi, Pan Cyan, Ps Galindoi, oyster, PE, PE6(isolate), oh and Lions Mane. Roughly 50% have moisture bc they are colonized enough to give off heat which, drum roll...causes condensation, I’m no rocket scientist but I do have a degree in Biomedical Science and 3 full college years of microbiology experience. SMell not moisture has been my best indicator for bacteria along with slow colonization.
I run a 3500 SQ foot medical grade HEPA($269 just for the filter replace). That gets everything even chemicals of most types...so how does penicillin still sometimes make its way in? It’s ubiquitous. The old houses I’ve lived in have messed with all my projects, plants and mushrooms both. Get a good filter. Below is a pick of a shoebox spawned from a moisture ridden jar that was also slow to colonize. You can always always always try to spawn. Def do take it out if you notice any contamination though.
I started PCing my Sorghum for 2 hrs 20min. Full jars at least. This cook time plus my giant HEPA have def lowered my contamination rate. The house I currently own is 30years old and carpeted. Just moved so working on changing that carpet ASAP. However since switching to glass Petris I’ve had less than 1% contamination rate. So is it really the carpet? If I forget to clean my humidifier one week I always get the Trich on SOMETHING in my room, in a jar or substrate.
http://
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
|
Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084911 - 12/12/20 12:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've heard that tale before. 
Just keep at it, someday you'll realize it was your spawn all along.
|
Egohst
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/20
Posts: 20
Loc: God’s Palm
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084914 - 12/12/20 12:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Meant to add especially for pans and ps tampanensis types(like Gal) I pasteurize TWO hours. My cubes and all others I do boiling water directly into the dry sub in an IGLOO Gatorade cooler doo-hickey. I tried no pasteurization and it didn’t work with my manure. I disagree with above also. Dirty spawn can contaminate a sub two days or 3 weeks after it is spawned!!!11 OR NEVER. I have spawned tons of contaminated jars, 50% percent of them fruited and never let the contamination grow into the sub at all. Dial in your pasteurization and sterilization tek and your cleanliness of your own body. Use hands(even with gloves) as little as possible. Use sterile tools, vacuum often, wash everything AND THEN sanitize with preferred substance. I use dilute bleach with dilute glacial acetic acid USE CAUTION Mixing bleach and vinegar in HIGH CONCENTRATIONS=Chlorine gas... if you mix strong bleach with strong acid YOur GOnna HAve a BAd TIme! Don’t French fry when you need to pizza man. If the moisture in your jars is clear...double everything’s fine.
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
|
Egohst
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/20
Posts: 20
Loc: God’s Palm
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084918 - 12/12/20 12:58 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
What tale? The one where I agree that it’s his spawn? Read the post. I have had bad spawn ruin a sub and contam spawn never show again in the fruiting process. Strain, genetics, and most of all the person. Moisture in jars is fine.
-------------------- Literally, sever nober!
|
Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Egohst]
#27084936 - 12/12/20 01:40 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I wouldn't touch LC till you are 100% sure that your sterile technique is on point.
Being 99% sure can come back to bite you in the ass. When its that 1% variable it makes it harder to pin down what you are messing up.
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 4 hours, 22 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27084960 - 12/12/20 02:13 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
No seed could survive sterilization. Sometimes unsterilized seeds get mixed in during spawning. One place you'll never see a sprouting grain is the place you would expect to find it if had somehow survived sterilization, in the sterilized spawn jar. Unless it had already sprouted before sterilization.
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Kizzle]
#27084995 - 12/12/20 03:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
shroower said:
Quote:
There's a tendency on this forum to think we kill all endospores with a 2 hrs cycle and IME that's simply ridiculous. If you run into a bad batch of grain you'd better switch grain or you're screwed.
Maybe not all but certainly most if you're hydrating the grains the right way. The problem with grains is not that endospores resist autoclave temperatures for hours, it's that the temperature sometimes doesn't reach the core of the grains in the middle of the jar.
I never had a quart jar of properly hydrated wheat or rye berries go bad to bacteria after 2h at 17 psi in 10+ years, on the other hand someone posted on discord an oat seedling in the middle of his colonized tub after doing a 5 minute simmer and going straight to the pressure cooker for 2h at 15psi. So, clearly that specific grain did not reach even close to 121C in the cycle or it couldn't possibly germinate, probably because it was too dry and heat couldn't reach it.
No seed could survive sterilization. Sometimes unsterilized seeds get mixed in during spawning. One place you'll never see a sprouting grain is the place you would expect to find it if had somehow survived sterilization, in the sterilized spawn jar. Unless it had already sprouted before sterilization.
I'll chase the guy to see if I still can get the pictures and details but I'm absolutely sure he did not mix unsterilized seed during spawning, because he had none.
Obviously I agree that a seed cannot survive sterilization temperatures. What I'm saying is that sometimes they do not reach even close to those temperatures. Just because the pressure cooker is at 15psi doesn't mean that every solid matter inside is immediately at 121C.
Edited by shroower (12/12/20 03:42 AM)
|
Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27085028 - 12/12/20 04:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|

Sometimes there are seeds in the coir!
|
shroower



Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 518
Loc: Europe
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Sockadin]
#27085032 - 12/12/20 04:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sockadin said:

Sometimes there are seeds in the coir!
That's Occam's razor right there, thanks for reminding me of the obvious.
|
Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: shroower]
#27085060 - 12/12/20 05:25 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|

Nature finds a way.
|
A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,782
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 1 hour, 21 minutes
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: Sockadin]
#27085075 - 12/12/20 05:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah I’ve had plenty of sprouts.
Apparently there are seeds in jiffy mix also cuz I had this pop up in my last pan tub which has no coir. Just wbs, manure and a peat case.
--------------------
LAGM2020     
|
smalltalk_canceled
Babnik


Registered: 07/13/20
Posts: 2,862
Last seen: 12 days, 7 hours
|
Re: Moisture in all my jars... Wtf [Re: A.k.a]
#27085134 - 12/12/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Keep fighting Chard!
-------------------- Willpower is the one true virtue
  
|
|