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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Reagan's Secret War
    #27040540 - 11/15/20 03:04 PM (17 days, 13 hours ago)

I just watched a fascinating documentary called "Reagan's Secret War".

After mutually assured destruction appeared to make WWIII impossible to win, many countries started moving towards a better and more peaceful coexistence with the Soviet Union.

Of course, Reagan didn't want any part of coexisting with communism, so he:

a)  Ramped up US military spending and made it appear that the US was getting ready for a potential attack, to include military exercises along Russia's border, and launched the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), intimidating the Soviet Union into putting 50% of its GDP into its defense, crippling its production of other things.

b)  Teamed up with religious extremists in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union to get them to spend even more on their military.

c)  Tricked the Soviets into thinking the US military was more powerful than it actually was.

d)  Provided Soviet spies with technology and software that had Trojan Horses built in to ensure they would fail over time.

e)  Worked with Saudi Arabia to cut oil prices to reduce Soviet oil income.


But the main focus of the documentary was how Reagan created a "Deception Committee" which, among other things, successfully tricked Sweden, a neutral country, into letting it to get used by the US military as a sort of 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' by allowing US military aircraft in Sweden close to the Soviet Union.  Here is that story:

In October 1981, a Soviet sub ran aground in Swedish territory.  A Swedish military commander who first showed up to the scene couldn't believe the stupidity of the sub's captain, but was ordered not to interview the captain for answers.  A Swedish dive team found evidence that the sub intentionally ran itself aground and actually pushed itself into shallower waters than it could handle.  But the media reported the incident as evidence of Soviet spying and aggression against Sweden.

In spite of this incident, the Swedes still elected Olof Palme as their Prime Minister who was a Social Democrat and vocal against US imperialism.  Olof Palme was very much disliked by the elites in Sweden, who sided with the US and Britain.

After this incident, periscopes were continuously spotted in Swedish waters, stoking fears of Soviet aggression.  Swedish experts who were interviewed said they knew Soviet submarines don't just stick their periscopes out of the water for the world to see, especially when they're in Swedish waters.  And the Soviets said they weren't their subs, and even invited the Swedes to bomb the shit out of any subs they thought were Soviet in Swedish waters.  Of course, no subs were ever sank, but the media ran with the story of Soviet aggression and pubic fear of Soviet aggression rose from 27% to 83%.  Even the Soviet ambassador to Sweden said he was surprised at how easy it was for the media to manipulate public opinion like that in a democratic country like Sweden.

Years later, it was discovered that the Swedish military knew these were NATO periscopes, and the US Deputy Chief of Navy operations admitted with a smile that the US "could have been" behind the Soviet sub grounding and the mysterious periscopes that were spotted.

But at the end of the day, Communism was defeated and capitalism and the military industrial complex won, so perhaps it was worth it?


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27040844 - 11/15/20 06:06 PM (17 days, 10 hours ago)

Sounds like solid tactics that paid off.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27040874 - 11/15/20 06:29 PM (17 days, 10 hours ago)

Reagan was balling Star Wars and the USSR spent themselves out on the bluff.

To answer the 2nd question, the military industrial complex has run a muck....undoubtedly, right now Joe is getting intel reports that would scare the shit out of anyone(like past presidents) concocted of some truth and defense contract interests. I see no sign that the MIC is going away soon.


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Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (11/15/20 08:34 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27041225 - 11/15/20 10:38 PM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like solid tactics that paid off.



Yes, it paid off for the military industrial complex and the elite.  :shrug:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27041229 - 11/15/20 10:42 PM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

The cold War was a miserable time to live in America. Winning that war made life much better here.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27041244 - 11/15/20 10:57 PM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

Agreed, because Reagan scared the shit out of the world as evidenced by this documentary.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27041247 - 11/15/20 10:58 PM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

The cold war fear predated Reagan's presidency.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27041260 - 11/15/20 11:06 PM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

Sure, but as I mentioned above and as noted in the documentary, the fake American news of Soviet aggression made Swedish fear of Soviet aggression rise from 27% to 83%.  I'm sure the Swedes weren't the only ones to hear the fake fear mongering.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27041265 - 11/15/20 11:09 PM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

I'm not talking about the swedes. I grew up with constant warnings and drills for impending nuclear holocaust. Ending that was the best thing Reagan accomplished


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27041285 - 11/15/20 11:18 PM (17 days, 5 hours ago)

Not doubting US propaganda (we had the Red Scare, too)you referance; however, the economic differences between the US and USSR helped fuel the Cold War itself. Didnt USSR refuse trade with the West? We have a war economy; so not sure what the Russians expected.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (11/15/20 11:19 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27041474 - 11/16/20 02:42 AM (17 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Not doubting US propaganda (we had the Red Scare, too)you referance; however, the economic differences between the US and USSR helped fuel the Cold War itself.



I think it was a fear of communism gaining in popularity in poorer countries.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Didnt USSR refuse trade with the West? We have a war economy; so not sure what the Russians expected.



They wanted to be as self sufficient as possible, but they traded with the West for whatever they wanted/needed.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #27041475 - 11/16/20 02:43 AM (17 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm not talking about the swedes. I grew up with constant warnings and drills for impending nuclear holocaust. Ending that was the best thing Reagan accomplished



Why were in fear of nuclear holocaust then and not now?  Fear mongering about communism I think.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27041695 - 11/16/20 09:01 AM (16 days, 19 hours ago)

Part of it was seeing that the domino theory was not going to play out.

But yeah, anticommunism was just about a secular religion in the U.S.

Then the MIC shifted to being all about oil, but it has become apparent that we don't need the Middle East's oil, so I'm not sure how they will sell it now. I expect it will be about China; their growing economic dominance, their potential military alliance with Russia.

Then there's radical Islam. Maybe we don't need their oil, buy you can buy a lot of weapons with oil money. I would fear ICBMs in some of those countries more than I was of the USSR. Everyone seems to hate Iran now, so see how that progresses.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27041808 - 11/16/20 10:20 AM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

Any way you look at it, the fall of the soviet union was a good thing for America.  The fact that Reagan accomplished it without open war is great.  I'm not sure there was a way to accomplish it with less suffering.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #27041826 - 11/16/20 10:33 AM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

We couldn’t just not waged a global war against communism :shrug:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27041835 - 11/16/20 10:36 AM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

Okay, so how would we bring about the fall of the Soviet Union?


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27041890 - 11/16/20 11:13 AM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

I think Gorbachev had more to do with it than "we" did, and the process began earlier with Andropov.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27041898 - 11/16/20 11:16 AM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

I agree, and I'd go further in saying that the Soviet Union was going to fail economically regardless.  Still, the fall of the USSR was good for America, so our leaders should have done everything they could to encourage it.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27041920 - 11/16/20 11:24 AM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

Reagan gave them a good hard shove, but it cost us an awful lot of money for something that was going to happen anyway.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27041928 - 11/16/20 11:31 AM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

Like me, you're old enough to remember the cold war "verge of WWIII" mindset we lived in.  I'm glad that's over, as much as it may have cost.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #27041959 - 11/16/20 11:47 AM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

And now we have all this totalitarianism and existential dread with no boogeyman to blame it on. :feelsbadman:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27041975 - 11/16/20 11:58 AM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

America isn't totalitarian, though.  You don't even really believe it is, either.  You're just engaging in hyperbole.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 4
    #27042055 - 11/16/20 12:48 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

You can make an argument that the dread of nuclear holocaust being gone is a good thing, but now instead of school drills for hiding from nukes we have school drills for hiding from mass shooters.

Not to mention climate change, depressed wages, etc.

Quality of life for both Americans and Soviets were higher in 1960 than they are now. Well, straight white American men.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27042060 - 11/16/20 12:49 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

Oh and our government is still churning out IMMINENT NUCLEAR STRIKE ON AMERICA propaganda all the time.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27042078 - 11/16/20 01:09 PM (16 days, 15 hours ago)

So purposely setting up false narratives to misled the US population on geopolitical military issues is now considered a good policy and the ends justifies the means?

So let me ask, since confidence has been eroded due to these constant lies from government officials, why should we believe anything they say going forward?
I'm sure this information would be a great recruitment tool for future military conflicts. :facepalm:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: qman]
    #27042154 - 11/16/20 02:01 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Oh and our government is still churning out IMMINENT NUCLEAR STRIKE ON AMERICA propaganda all the time.



Not at all in the same way it was in the 70's. 

Quote:

qman said:
So purposely setting up false narratives to misled the US population on geopolitical military issues is now considered a good policy and the ends justifies the means?



You made that up, though.  I've seen no evidence that this happened.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27042421 - 11/16/20 05:34 PM (16 days, 11 hours ago)

The 70s sucked for a lot of reasons though.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27042432 - 11/16/20 05:37 PM (16 days, 11 hours ago)

You weren't even there, dude.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27042459 - 11/16/20 05:58 PM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

Everything had an avocado color, and shag carpet everywhere. My 78 Grand Marquis even has it.


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And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #27042502 - 11/16/20 06:32 PM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

Used to have a grand marquis, 02. Drove that fucker into the ground, great car.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27042513 - 11/16/20 06:41 PM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

Yes....they are built to take an absoulte beat down, have owned a few . My 78 has the 460 and it is mashed accordingly.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27042872 - 11/16/20 10:27 PM (16 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Any way you look at it, the fall of the soviet union was a good thing for America.  The fact that Reagan accomplished it without open war is great.  I'm not sure there was a way to accomplish it with less suffering.




This is a bit like saying "either way you look at it, the death of the co-owner of my assets was a good thing for me. The fact that I accomplished that death without open suspicion is great."

Either way, under this logic, a surprise nuke in the middle of Beijing, as long as it was a crippling decapitation strike, is a good policy.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Kryptos]
    #27042892 - 11/16/20 10:37 PM (16 days, 6 hours ago)

Like it or not, sovereignty exists, and the USSR had become a threat to American security. Right and wrong don't come into play. Either the tactics resulted in a better outcome for America or it didn't. I'm not convinced that nuking China would result in a good outcome for America.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #27043028 - 11/16/20 11:37 PM (16 days, 5 hours ago)

Seems like a short-sighted view.

Objectively, when it comes to questions of sovereignty, it would be best for the US to kill every non-American and take their shit. This would effectively remove all threats to America, economic, social, or military. Therefore, total war is objectively the correct course of action (for this purpose, let's just assume complete victory).

Of course, summary destruction of anything not "proper American" would make life worse for Americans, by limiting variety. I like taco Tuesday. Further, it limits economic and social opportunities in the future.

Similarly, we are seeing the after-effects of Reagan's use of the military as a GDP pump: The longest war in US history, in which that one onion article that was talking about young adults deploying to the military bases they were conceived in came true, along with the rest of the bullshit that fall into the MIC category, including that being a third of the national budget and the entire political party that wants the government to literally cut all services except the police and military.

What Reagan did was integrate the economy with the military. This had the effects of forcing the USSR to do the same, which led to a collapse of the USSR, as their military cannibalized more of their economy. Honestly, this was as much a warning for the future as it was a geopolitical win. Now there is a lot of economic interest in keeping that military doing their military thing.

We did something similar with healthcare. I calculated it out in in detail in conspiracy a while back, but something like 3% of the US GDP currently consists of medical billing. That's a big, 3% GDP decline sized argument against any sort of socialized health care. When 3% of the economy is people arguing over the price of medical care, that's a whole lot of people that would be extremely annoyed with the idea of the government paying the same out on a procedure basis using tax money. There's nothing left to argue about, and there goes 3% of your GDP! Think of my stock portfolio the children!

Heh, we're devoting our economy to the argument over, and distribution of, life and death.

Banks are probably sliding into this category as well, I assume being an opponent of something like postal banking.

The US is becoming a country of grift. Of everyone jumping in and getting while the getting's good, and leaving the next guy holding the bag. Trump is an obvious example, but one thing that I found really interesting was with the twisting of the BLM point about it taking a village to raise a child into "destruction of the nuclear family". That's an interesting development of the concept of "rugged individualism". What it's saying isn't just that it's your job to raise your kids, but also that it's explicitly not your job to help raise my kids. I, and only I, can legitimately decide on what I teach my children, and I get to shape their worldview and perspective.

This is how you create, at best, a feudal system of lords out for themselves using common folk as fodder. At worst, a complete atomization of society into isolated family units that rarely interact outside of their clans. A culture in which only you and your family matter, and fuck everybody else. A culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to take someone's watch when they aren't looking, and their wallet when they're looking for their watch. Because they don't matter unless they're family. And even then...eh?

I think Reagan, whether he knew it or (more likely) not, started that.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Kryptos]
    #27043034 - 11/16/20 11:41 PM (16 days, 5 hours ago)

I completely disagree. How do you figure it would be best to kill every non American? That sounds like a horrible idea.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27043047 - 11/16/20 11:46 PM (16 days, 5 hours ago)

Because it would remove all non-american threats by definition.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Kryptos]
    #27043056 - 11/16/20 11:56 PM (16 days, 4 hours ago)

Why not kill everyone then? If the only goal is to remove danger, extinction is a surefire solution. You're really just making an argument from absurdity and completely ignoring the entire purpose of civilization.

Being a part of a global marketplace is beneficial to America.  Having nuclear weapons aimed at us by a superpower that has repeatedly threated to end our way of life...not so much.



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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27043187 - 11/17/20 03:18 AM (16 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Because it would remove all non-american threats by definition.




Such a mindless fantasy, one wonders why even to bother considering it --- just for starters--- almost all our affordable goods are produced in China and southeast asia, by what is close to slave labor. At this point there is no way to change this.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: laughingdog]
    #27043786 - 11/17/20 02:17 PM (15 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Being a part of a global marketplace is beneficial to America.  Having nuclear weapons aimed at us by a superpower that has repeatedly threated to end our way of life...not so much.



How did they "repeatedly threated to end our way of life"?

As was explained in the documentary, the world realized that mutually assured destruction made war between the superpowers impossible to win, and many countries (including the Soviet Union) were ready to move towards a less hostile coexistence.  It was Reagan who rejected this and wanted to eliminate communism from the world, as it was becoming increasingly popular in poorer countries.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27043816 - 11/17/20 02:42 PM (15 days, 14 hours ago)

Oh, let's see...maybe by putting nuclear missiles 100 miles from the U.S.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27043854 - 11/17/20 03:09 PM (15 days, 13 hours ago)

You mean after the US put nuclear missiles in Turkey, a country that shared a border with the Soviet Union?  :flowstone:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27043867 - 11/17/20 03:16 PM (15 days, 13 hours ago)

Breaking international treaties is essential to Americans’ security.

Do I think being the unaccountable bully of the world reaps backlash? No that’s silly.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27043870 - 11/17/20 03:18 PM (15 days, 13 hours ago)

Whenever.  You seem to be under the impression that saying, "they started it" is somehow supposed to make America safer.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Enlil]
    #27043899 - 11/17/20 03:34 PM (15 days, 13 hours ago)

No, I'm not saying that the US escalating nuclear tensions made us any safer.  I'm actually saying the opposite.


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27043937 - 11/17/20 04:04 PM (15 days, 12 hours ago)

The Soviets mirrored our actions in the Cold War, for the same reason. They’re safe now too.

Only difference being they entered into a no-win colonial war in Afghanistan.




































:smile:


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Re: Reagan's Secret War [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27045229 - 11/18/20 12:07 PM (14 days, 16 hours ago)

The next cold war will be with China. The economic dominance argument is obvious, but hardliners are also currently pushing the 'China is fermenting world communism' rhetoric. They only had to change a couple words from what they were saying 60-70 years ago. We wont be able to spend our way out of this one, and our days of being the world's only superpower are numbered.

A big issue will be how well Russia and China are getting along. They recently did a joint military exercises. Russia just leased a naval base in Sudan that will allow them easier access to deploy nuclear warships, assumably  submarines, far from their national borders. Between that and China's deep pockets to build their military, there will be plenty of stories to scare people here.

Any shooting wars will be proxy wars. The more things change, the more they stay the same, except China won't be the junior partner in the threat assessment this time.


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