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OfflineChowder
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Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it?
    #27036752 - 11/13/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hey guys,

Haven't been on this forum for a while now, good to be back!
I guess Im a bit out of date with the latest wisdom so I'd really appreciate if you can review my plan so I dont fuck up.

Soooo

I got 7 fully colonized rye jars (quart size).

My several monotub attempts were mainly unsuccessful and I am afraid to put all eggs in one basket again. Also, Im quite limited with my resources.



So my strategy is:


1. Get 7 x 5L plastic water bottles (like this)

2. Cut them in half, sanitize with IPA

3. Pasteurize 50/50 coir+verm (is there any safe nutrition additives I can experiment with? dog food i heard? I dont have access to hpoo, as Im in the city atm)

4. Break up rye grain with sanitised gloves and mix  1:1 with the substrate.

5. Line the half-bottles with a black plastic bag and add the above mix in.

6. Cover them with some foil?  or maybe just tye up the plastic bags?

7. Allow to colonize 7-10 days.

8. Prep a casing layer once surface is fully colonized.

9. Open up the bags, add half an inch of casing layer.

10. make 4 x 1 cm holes in the upper half of the bottles and fill with polyfill (can I use regular cotton too?)

11. Mist and fan 1-2x/day.



Sounds good?!

Thanks for your time.


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27036802 - 11/13/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chowder said:
I guess Im a bit out of date with the latest wisdom so I'd really appreciate if you can review my plan so I dont fuck up.




Check the sticky threads at the top for all the current teks.

Quote:


Soooo

I got 7 fully colonized rye jars (quart size).

My several monotub attempts were mainly unsuccessful and I am afraid to put all eggs in one basket again. Also, Im quite limited with my resources.

So my strategy is:

1. Get 7 x 5L plastic water bottles (like this)





For less money you could get seven 6qt shoe boxes...

Quote:


2. Cut them in half, sanitize with IPA





IPA is only going to kill bacteria and your colonized grain isn't that vulnerable to bacteria. Forget the IPA.

Quote:


3. Pasteurize 50/50 coir+verm (is there any safe nutrition additives I can experiment with? dog food i heard? I dont have access to hpoo, as Im in the city atm)





I think that's probably way too much vermiculite, but I don't know for sure because I don't use it at all. Adding anything nutritive will be contam city. Also look at the bucket tek. That stuff doesn't need to be pasteurized, but the coir hydrates a lot better with hot water. That's about it; the rest of your questions are covered by the relevant teks.


--------------------
"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
- Terrence McKenna


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27036809 - 11/13/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Add some gypsum to the coir and dont mess with anything else, only introduces contam and this mixture is nutritous and fruits excellently already.

Waht do you mean by "tye up the plastic bags". Since you cut off the tpp I recommend putting that back on, I think that sould work. You can put on the cap loosely for air.

Misting and fanning isnt neccesary when you have your bottles "dialed in" which is the right amount of opening (in your case bottlecap).
Ideally you have small water droplets on the surface at all times as indicators of good moisture and humidity but no pools.

And yeah vermiculite is totally unnecesary. Just check your coir isnt over satureated, that is to say at field capacity and no more. Means squeezing it doesnt make any water come out and therefore no pooling on the bottom of water.


--------------------
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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind]
    #27036816 - 11/13/20 10:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, thanks a lot SirPentinite & polaritymind!

So what do you think about replacing polyfil with cotton?

And what about the 1:1 ratio? Can I push it a bit more?

OK, got it, so just pasteurize coir (or bucket tek it!), no verm.


Also, no need for side holes? the top one should be enough?


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Edited by Chowder (11/13/20 10:46 AM)


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27036982 - 11/13/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Cotton absorbs water which is not desirable. Poly Fil doesn't. 1:2 spawn ratio or even 1:3 generally performs better than 1:1. If you use shoe boxes, they don't need to be modified.


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"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Sir Pentinite]
    #27037008 - 11/13/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hm, thats interesting about the ratio. What would be the explanation, you know?
When you say "performes better" i assume you mean harvest/contam resistance?


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037050 - 11/13/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Shoeboxes work well. I mix coir and verm to pasteurize in a 5 gallon bucket and never had contams with it ever polaritymind.
basically just don't oversaturate your myc with substrate in a shoe box. Use common sense.
there's not a lot of math to be done, and it isn't at all as complicated as you're all making it out to be.
Use a casing layer of coir/verm/gypsum pasteurized for reg cubes.
There's no need for polyfil or miropore tape as shoeboxes don't need to be modified.
I'd build a separate Fruiting Chamber as well just incase the variety you're dealing with fruits with larger specimens.
EDIT: I forgot to say 1brick coir matches well with 2qts verm and a half pint of gypsum.


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Edited by mushhead (11/13/20 01:21 PM)


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27037062 - 11/13/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)



shoe boxes done mushboy style


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27037077 - 11/13/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

thanx Mushhead!

well, whats the difference between these "shoeboxes" and the 5Liter water bottles?  I really cant afford 6 plastic totes at the moment. Should be exactly the same no?


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037091 - 11/13/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)



Above is a good example of what you're attempting to do. This is a 2ltr bottle.
You can already see the issues with it.



eventually i had to move it into its own Fruiting chamber.


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27037172 - 11/13/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, i was just reading earlier about this side pinning problem. Thats why I thought about putting the substrate in a black bag. Not only it block the light, but I read that the plastic shrinks together with the substrate and it doesnt create those pockets of high humidity where the pinning innitiates.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037183 - 11/13/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chowder said:
Yeah, i was just reading earlier about this side pinning problem. That's* why I thought about putting the substrate in a black bag. Not only it block the light, but I read that the plastic shrinks together with the substrate and it doesn't* create those pockets of high humidity where the pinning initiates*.



Light has nothing to do with side pins, forget that myth right this second.
A liner will do you just fine and would fix the issue of side pinning, but only because it literally prevents the myc from pinning on its side as it is physically adhered to the substrate which is a natural reaction of mycelia attempting to consume something it can't.
I also looked at your 5ltr bottles. if you have that bump in the middle you'll need to work around that, or try to find a flatter bottomed container.


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27037188 - 11/13/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hmm, interesting... whats the issue with not having a flat bottom. Im sure i can flatten any bump with a bit of heat and pressure anyhow. But thanks for the tip.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037191 - 11/13/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Theres not real big issue, its just annoying to have to work around it.
The bump will just get in the way of mixing the sub within the bottle is all.


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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037202 - 11/13/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

6l sterilize shoeboxes work great unmodified, and cost about 99cents a piece. I really don’t see a reason to use those water jugs unless you just want to experiment. If you just want mush, skip the verm and the black plastic bags and buy the shoeboxes. If you want to experiment, be sure to let us all know how they work out.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27037203 - 11/13/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Roscoe, I already tried m8.
He seems pretty set on using the 5ltr bottles.


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27037256 - 11/13/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

99 cents?
I dont live in US or UK tho.. and at the moment I kinda have zero budget and those water bottles lying around, thats my only reasoning.
But fuck it, I wont be stubborn and go and look for some  cheap boxes tomorrow...

WHats the idea behind not using a liner?


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037274 - 11/13/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

In a shoebox its not needed. The substrate will side pin, but it wont be an issue since the sub wont be too deep.


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27037462 - 11/13/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chowder said:
Hm, thats interesting about the ratio. What would be the explanation, you know?
When you say "performes better" i assume you mean harvest/contam resistance?




More sub holds more water and needs less attention through the first flush. The fewer factors a new cultivator has to juggle at once, the better IMO. There's nothing wrong with 1:1 and lots of people do that. Your sub will be contam resistant if the spawn is clean and if you don't have ginormous spore load in your grow area. I'm lazy about tossing out used subs and they go 8-10 weeks without turning green. They dry out first.


--------------------
"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
- Terrence McKenna


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Sir Pentinite]
    #27037501 - 11/13/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sir Pentinite said:
Quote:

Chowder said:
Hm, thats interesting about the ratio. What would be the explanation, you know?
When you say "performes better" i assume you mean harvest/contam resistance?




More sub holds more water and needs less attention through the first flush. The fewer factors a new cultivator has to juggle at once, the better IMO. There's nothing wrong with 1:1 and lots of people do that. Your sub will be contam resistant if the spawn is clean and if you don't have ginormous spore load in your grow area. I'm lazy about tossing out used subs and they go 8-10 weeks without turning green. They dry out first.



Same my tubs don't usually contam after consolidation completes, they just get sad a wrinkled.


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27038041 - 11/14/20 12:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks a lot guys...
Well I guess im on a mission for a shoebox now..


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27038137 - 11/14/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Also guys, I see such a war between casing or not... whats your personal preference for a shoebox?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27038241 - 11/14/20 06:20 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Its not a war. Its preference. Some people will say do it some will say its not necessary.
I think casings are useless for cubes even PE varieties :shrug: people have their superstition


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27038335 - 11/14/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

What would you have to say about those who say a case layer promotes pinning on the top and not the sides?
Or, how do you prevent side pinning in a shoebox?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27038339 - 11/14/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Skill and practice prevents side pinning.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27045113 - 11/18/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Preventing side pinning is easily done with a trashbag liner. Even if the block shrinks, you can pull it up closer to the block again so no space and therefore no moisture/air pinning condtitions can arise, and also no light is a huge part of it too, since light is also a pinning trigger. So use a black thick trashbag.


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OfflineMushroomNewbie2
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind]
    #27045197 - 11/18/20 09:51 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I’ve heard people getting side pins even with a liner cause they fuck it up... IMO why not just get some good surface conditions going for the mushies and they’ll wanna grow there and not on the sides :mushroom2:
But again, I’m new at this and learning the ways that work best for Me :grin:
Cheers!


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: MushroomNewbie2] * 1
    #27045233 - 11/18/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

To avoid side pins just make sure you build your tubs very level and even, tamp down the edges a little bit, and give the top layer a heavy misting after spawn.

This is about the most side pins I’ve had since I was 7-8yo


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #27047036 - 11/19/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Youve been growing since you were 7-8 yo ??:grin:


--------------------
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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind]
    #27047174 - 11/19/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I've been cultivating since I was 14 m8.
It's not farfetched to believe Roger there was learning mush cult at that age.


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27048410 - 11/20/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I like to throw random ages out. We had this kid in middle school that walked with a fabricated limp and it was common practice to ask him why he was limping, because he’d say “I been limpin since I was one” in his funny way.

So 20 years later or whatever I still think of ol Javon and smile and assign random ages to random statements. I been doin it since I was one

Today’s trip down memory lane brought to you by Dasani. “It’s like water, but for poor people”


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OfflineChowder
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27048412 - 11/20/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hey guys,

Check out my progress, hows it looking?

https://ibb.co/qpM92Dt
https://ibb.co/hYvm8sQ
https://ibb.co/Jm3kqXK

Should I be concerned about ths myc trying to poke upwards?
Would you add a case layer at this stage, its been 7 days since spawn at 20*C (68F).
Lids are upside down, no holes, no liner, no fan in the room, im just opening the window for fresh air 2x/day.

Thank a lot for your time.


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OfflineBedgus
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27048470 - 11/20/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

One thing that helped me get no side pins was pressing down on the whole substrate and an addition of a little coir on the top, bod mentions it in his tek. You mix everything as usual, but leave some coir on the side to add on top. Once you've mixed the whole thing press it down then add the coir and press it down as well so it's level. I've seen a tek somewhere that says to spray it for a good 10 seconds and then it's set and forget the first week and a half. After that you have to make sure you have good surface conditions and there will be no side pins, no liner/casing necessary.


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Bedgus]
    #27048542 - 11/20/20 08:35 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks Begdus,
Any tipds for how to create the ideal surface conditions? Just by dialing in the GE and FAE properly?


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder] * 1
    #27048560 - 11/20/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Gas exchange is for jars. Fae is for tubs. And yes of course dialing it in aka practice and developing skill


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27048851 - 11/20/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid:
Thing is you'll need to study and gauge your grow space.
Some great questions to ask yourself are:
What's the ambient temp of my grow room?
Is the atmosphere within my grow space dry or humid?
What are my weather conditions? (I have found in different seasons like summer and winter my tubs are dialed in differently)
The rest does come from personal experience and practice.
Especially with side pins, proper mixing of your substrate, tamping it down evenly, using a liner, and adding a casing layer are all good fixes.

Quote:

Chowder said:
https://ibb.co/qpM92Dt
https://ibb.co/hYvm8sQ
https://ibb.co/Jm3kqXK




Looking really great! Unmodified tubs are the easiest route to take.
I'm glad you abandoned those jugs.
Its natural for the myc to reach like that when its conditions are right.
I believe you'll be getting pins soon.


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27049816 - 11/21/20 03:00 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

thanks a lot mushhead.
I think I will apply a casing layer to some of the tubs, just as an experiment.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Bedgus]
    #27055240 - 11/24/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bedgus said:
One thing that helped me get no side pins was pressing down on the whole substrate and an addition of a little coir on the top, bod mentions it in his tek. You mix everything as usual, but leave some coir on the side to add on top. Once you've mixed the whole thing press it down then add the coir and press it down as well so it's level. I've seen a tek somewhere that says to spray it for a good 10 seconds and then it's set and forget the first week and a half. After that you have to make sure you have good surface conditions and there will be no side pins, no liner/casing necessary.




so dry coir? I am confused, leave it a aside so no gypsum in it either right?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind] * 1
    #27055403 - 11/24/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No he’s just talking about using a top layer which I think should be cube SOP. You make your bulk sub, spawn the tub but leave out enough prepared bulk for a 1/4” or so layer on top.

Tamp down the edges and level everything out before adding the top layer, repeat the leveling process with that 1/4” top layer and spray the whole ordeal down a decent amount. That’s how I like to do it and the mush enjoy


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #27056678 - 11/25/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

But why, whats the benefit? Packed coir at the same time, what difference does it make?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind]
    #27056783 - 11/25/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Why buy yo flyest bitch diamonds instead of cubic zirconia? It’s just mo better

Really though I’m not sure what step you’re asking about. Why use a top layer would be to cover your grains because they don’t provide a very good pinning surface, so you have that top layer of smooth coir with all its little air pockets and niches for myc to get into and it forms a blank slate that can pin from all over. It will prevent grains from drying out as well and is a protective barrier for the “main body” of mycelium. Though it’s all one thing I think of it as the main stronghold underneath providing water and nutrients and the top layer traps that all underneath and allows pinning from up top.

Why tamp them down separately? Just cuz. Cubes don’t naturally grow on every square inch of substrate they find, we’re kind of tricking them into it with insanely perfect conditions. That’s how I think of it anyway. And I think of them as two separate parts of a whole so each gets setup just so. It doesn’t always work like I want it to but mostly it does.


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: MushroomNewbie2]
    #27057265 - 11/25/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomNewbie2 said:
I’ve heard people getting side pins even with a liner cause they fuck it up... IMO why not just get some good surface conditions going for the mushies and they’ll wanna grow there and not on the sides :mushroom2:
But again, I’m new at this and learning the ways that work best for Me :grin:
Cheers!




Don't the bottom and sides of the liner have to be tight to not create wet pockets of air with better conditions than the top of the surface?


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #27057295 - 11/25/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

no they don't need to be tight, I've used some pretty loose liners in the past with major success.
You can see them on my journal.


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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: mushhead]
    #27060121 - 11/27/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hello friends,

I am back.

So I fruited the rye jars in shoeboxes with no holes (2 jars each, 3:1 ratio)

However, its been 14 days since fruiting and about 7 days since full colonisation.

I cased two of the tubs as an experiment. Myc went through, patched it, and now it went through again!

Since full colonization, I started fanning once a day.

No pins still! But luckily they still smell healthy and mushroomy.  and theres tiny droplets (and some big ones) all over the surface.

Ambient temp is around 18-21C (64-69F)


How much longer until I should get some pins?

Thank you!


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OfflineBedgus
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: polaritymind]
    #27065697 - 12/01/20 01:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

polaritymind said:
But why, whats the benefit? Packed coir at the same time, what difference does it make?




Sorry I've just now seen this. The difference is that when you add the top layer your surface is going to be the flattest possible. Technically I don't know why mushies enjoy it, but from experience it gives me the best possible pinset. I think it has something to do with the rate of evaporation, it acts as a casing layer, but technically it isn't. When you mix everything the sub will colonise fully below the added layer of coir and then you will see rhyzomorphic growth reaching the top layer. I think without adding the top layer you risk compromising surface conditions i.e. your sub dries out too fast. I really can't tell you why it works, only that it works, maybe someone else can chime in, but you should definitely try it, what's there to lose? :smile:

EDIT: just now seen this
Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
Why buy yo flyest bitch diamonds instead of cubic zirconia? It’s just mo better

Really though I’m not sure what step you’re asking about. Why use a top layer would be to cover your grains because they don’t provide a very good pinning surface, so you have that top layer of smooth coir with all its little air pockets and niches for myc to get into and it forms a blank slate that can pin from all over. It will prevent grains from drying out as well and is a protective barrier for the “main body” of mycelium. Though it’s all one thing I think of it as the main stronghold underneath providing water and nutrients and the top layer traps that all underneath and allows pinning from up top.

Why tamp them down separately? Just cuz. Cubes don’t naturally grow on every square inch of substrate they find, we’re kind of tricking them into it with insanely perfect conditions. That’s how I think of it anyway. And I think of them as two separate parts of a whole so each gets setup just so. It doesn’t always work like I want it to but mostly it does.





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Edited by Bedgus (12/01/20 01:55 AM)


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Here is my fruiting strategy; what do you think about it? [Re: Chowder]
    #27066079 - 12/01/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Don't patch the substrate just let it ride.
The myc is too worried about colonizing the extra sub you're expanding it with to push pins.


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